Does BB Need To Bring In An Experienced DC To Rebuild The Defense?

[ralmat55]

Changing the way he does things means he'd have to lose the courage of his convictions which have largely brought 2 organizations 5 rings and led this one to 4 superbowls in just your mis-spent youth...

I've become convinced "the courage of his convictions" is the problem with this defense. Simply, Belichick does not have the players to play his 2-gap defense, has been unable to find those players, and refuses to change his system to reflect his players' skills.

We can argue the merits of 1-gap or 2-gap and whether the 2-gap defense works in a high octane passing league, but it's less arguable that you need special and versatile players to effectively play the 2-gap. Read and React asks more of the players who play it, so those players need to be better and more versatile to effectively play it. This team doesn't have these players and college football produces fewer and fewer of them each year. Plus, in the free agency/salary cap era, you don't have 3-4 years to develop these players either.

Think of the champion Giant and patriots teams. Who is the lawrence taylor or Willie mcGiniest on this team? Who is the leonard marshall or richard Seymour? Who is the carl banks or Mike Vrabel? Who is the harry carson or tedy bruschi? The only part in place is Vince Wilfork at NT.

There has always been a basic conceit that the scheme is more important than the players with this coach. He is, afterall, the same coach who used a 4th rd draft pick on Dan Klecko thinking that with good coaching and sound techniques the 5 foot something 270 Klecko could hold the nose against double-team blocks by 300 lb centers and guards. Players matter, and, if your players don't match your scheme, perhaps, you should change it. Honestly, watching this patriots team play defense is like watching someone try to pound in a nail with a screwdriver.

I understand how loyal bill Belichick is to the defense he's coached for 25 years, and how hard it is to change ways that have been extremely successful in the past. But, IMHO, if this defense is ever going to improve significantly, he's going to have to change the scheme or somehow find a magical tree which grows the players to play it.

So, yes, the pats should hire an experienced DC who installs a more aggressive scheme.

 

[Snake Eyes]

The problem isn't Belichick as a coach or Belichick's system. It's a lack of talent. They've simply failed to replace the talent that started leaving the roster after 2007.

They've only recently had some solid additions through the draft, but they aren't enough, and one (McCourty) has regressed significantly.

If the idea is to bring in someone who help find defensive talent, then I'd support that. But we don't need a new DC.

While I definitely think there's a lack of talent on the team I don't know if we can seperate that from BB wearing so many hats. If we had a solid DC would that better allow for the development of the talent we do have?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

No one's trying to "nudge him out the door." But the D, especially the secondary, is a clusterf#ck personnel-wise and Patricia is not the right man to hold down the fort and scheme around it until re-enforcements [hopefully] arrive in a year or two.

Unless you think BOB is a rock-solid OC who should be trusted completely with the offense, then all these factors point to BB being overextended, without adequate time or resources to fix the D.
'
BB's track record speaks for itself, but there are no Rodneys, Vrabels or McGinists walking through that door. Could be completely unrealistic/wishful thinking on most fans' part, but if there's a RAC, Dom Capers or Wade Phillips type out there, I'd rather give him a call than watch another season or two pissed away with a one and done, mainly because we don't have the dominant defense we had in the Championship years.

58% of respondents to this poll want a new DC brought in to handle schemes and personnel...

Aside from that, has a Wade Phillips defense won a damn thing yet? Is Dom Capers D in GB any better than what he ran in Miami (hint GB isn't winning because of defense...). Each of them had a say in personnel selection during failed stints as HC's... Coordinators are never big picture guys. That is why they don't have much say in personnel selection. They may voice an opinion but it should generally be taken in context. That often derails their careers if they in fact get to the point where personnel is their call.

And please people, stop the RAC fantasies. He wants to be a HC. Same reason he left here is the reason he ain't coming back. They all do. They only take a step backwards when something happens that forces them to. In fact if Pioli doesn't allow him to become one again in KC he likely won't be his DC in 2012. He will finally take the Weis road to HCing and go find a college willing to pay him about the same money as an NFL franchise would. And I'd bet Wade and Dom are of the same mindset. HC or bust. There aren't many position coaches or coordinators in this game who are content with that being their lot in life. Scar is one of those rare birds. As was Jimmy Johnson. As was Steve Belichick. But by and large if you aren't ambitious you likely aren't driven and Bill wants guys who are driven and he also knows that you will lose them eventually if they were ever worth having... So if the choice is bringing in an ambitious guy who wants to be a HC and giving him free rein to turn this defense upside down and see how it shakes out...I'll pass and stay the course because the guy running to show now ain't going anywhere anytime soon.

I like to follow Greg Bedards tweets because he puts a lot of thought and reflection following tape study into them. He tweeted today that aside from some brief inaccuracy early and multiple TD DROPS, Brady was playing one his best games of the season. He also observed that the defensive scheme seems to be improving although injuries appear to be impacting the end result on that side of the ball. Patience is a virtue but few fans here are terribly virtuous. Or reflective. Entitled and demanding is the spirit of the times. Fantasy is the name of the game. They somehow equate name recognition and empty yardage stats with winning when outside of fantasy leagues more often than not nothing could be farther from the truth. Just ask Bill Polian. Or even Bill Cowher - since it took them years not to mention luck to win it all just once and the pressure of maintaining that level of performance drove Cowher into the booth for an extended sabatical.

Nobody's perfect, but patsfans should be far more greatful for than critical of the situation we find ourselves in today. And mindful of the old adage be careful what you wish for...

Bill Belichick needs to keep doing what he does, only he has to do some of it a little better. He doesn't need to be replaced or brought to heel any more than his QB does. What they both would benefit from is everyone around them doing a better job with as much consistency as they continue to display.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I've become convinced "the courage of his convictions" is the problem with this defense. Simply, Belichick does not have the players to play his 2-gap defense, has been unable to find those players, and refuses to change his system to reflect his players' skills.

We can argue the merits of 1-gap or 2-gap and whether the 2-gap defense works in a high octane passing league, but it's less arguable that you need special and versatile players to effectively play the 2-gap. Read and React asks more of the players who play it, so those players need to be better and more versatile to effectively play it. This team doesn't have these players and college football produces fewer and fewer of them each year. Plus, in the free agency/salary cap era, you don't have 3-4 years to develop these players either.

Think of the champion Giant and patriots teams. Who is the lawrence taylor or Willie mcGiniest on this team? Who is the leonard marshall or richard Seymour? Who is the carl banks or Mike Vrabel? Who is the harry carson or tedy bruschi? The only part in place is Vince Wilfork at NT.

There has always been a basic conceit that the scheme is more important than the players with this coach. He is, afterall, the same coach who used a 4th rd draft pick on Dan Klecko thinking that with good coaching and sound techniques the 5 foot something 270 Klecko could hold the nose against double-team blocks by 300 lb centers and guards. Players matter, and, if your players don't match your scheme, perhaps, you should change it. Honestly, watching this patriots team play defense is like watching someone try to pound in a nail with a screwdriver.

I understand how loyal bill Belichick is to the defense he's coached for 25 years, and how hard it is to change ways that have been extremely successful in the past. But, IMHO, if this defense is ever going to improve significantly, he's going to have to change the scheme or somehow find a magical tree which grows the players to play it.

So, yes, the pats should hire an experienced DC who installs a more aggressive scheme.

I hope someone DVR'd the 2011 season for you...

He used to run a ball control offense, too...

 

[IllegalContact]

So tell me Mo, the pats don't need a DC? Your rants make it sound like that's what you believe.

Can you explain why the defense has gone to **** since he has not had one?

 

[ralmat55]

I hope someone DVR'd the 2011 season for you...

He used to run a ball control offense, too...

My DVR shows me that despite using a 4-man line the patriots remain very much a gap-control defense. Either that or these DLs are ridicuously slow off the snap. But, if my bad eyes and wee bitty brain is seeing things, then what you're saying is that Bill Belichick has lost the "courage of his convictions" then.

Under different pseudonyms, I've been a visitor and member of this board since Miguel brought his cap page to Patsfans.com back in 2002 I believe it was. As ralmat55, Miguel lists me as a contributor to the excellent work he's done for us Pats fans over the years. While I've not had the time to make 11,000 something posts (working a full-time job while caring for a parent with alzheimers is pretty time-consuming), I've been visiting this board often over these years because I love the patriots analysis i get from my fellow fans. Over, the past few months i've actually had the time to visit more and actually contribute (or at least try) something from time to time. What i've found is the rise of smug know-it-alls such as yourself who dismiss opinions which differ from yours with pithy little put-downs.

That's all I have to say, and I don't really care how you feel about it. You are, afterall, the mature class act who choose with your screen name to glorify a cheap hit that came close to costing Drew Bledsoe his life.

 

[RoughingthePasser]

I agree with many of these posts.

Weak drafting....talent in defensive positions...etc...I remember "pre-Brady" listening to the games at work on the radio and Milloy and Law made plays almost every game. I was hoping Merriweather or any of the other DB's would be above average like everyone else and the OLB drafting has been weak.
"Ayuh..."
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/840659-can-we-fix-secondary.html


BB will always give us a great dline and I love Jerod Mayo-but we need to do better.

The poll was closed so I wanted to vote: NO.
BB & Co. have it under control.

 

[Sciz]

Can you explain why the defense has gone to **** since he has not had one?

Because all the good players are gone?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

While I definitely think there's a lack of talent on the team I don't know if we can seperate that from BB wearing so many hats. If we had a solid DC would that better allow for the development of the talent we do have?

Only if he's a better DC than BB...

 

[IllegalContact]

Because all the good players are gone?

So then it's his personnel decisions that are the problem?

Or is it both.

Sure don't take much to confuse you

 

[MoLewisrocks]

My DVR shows me that despite using a 4-man line the patriots remain very much a gap-control defense. Either that or these DLs are ridicuously slow off the snap. But, if my bad eyes and wee bitty brain is seeing things, then what you're saying is that Bill Belichick has lost the "courage of his convictions" then.

Under different pseudonyms, I've been a visitor and member of this board since Miguel brought his cap page to Patsfans.com back in 2002 I believe it was. As ralmat55, Miguel lists me as a contributor to the excellent work he's done for us Pats fans over the years. While I've not had the time to make 11,000 something posts (working a full-time job while caring for a parent with alzheimers is pretty time-consuming), I've been visiting this board often over these years because I love the patriots analysis i get from my fellow fans. Over, the past few months i've actually had the time to visit more and actually contribute (or at least try) something from time to time. What i've found is the rise of smug know-it-alls such as yourself who dismiss opinions which differ from yours with pithy little put-downs.

That's all I have to say, and I don't really care how you feel about it. You are, afterall, the mature class act who choose with your screen name to glorify a cheap hit that came close to costing Drew Bledsoe his life.

Woe is me. I buried my mom a couple of years ago after working full time and taking care of her for 13 years as she sunk deeper into vascular dementia. Actually I started posting here because I couldn't get out much except to work. To fill the gap now I am a care partner for a friend who was diagnosed with early onset alzheimer's at 57. We recently had to have her hospitalized in a psych ward and medicated to deal with her physical aggression and anger and she is now gone from assisted living I supervised to globally aphasic and in a lockdown unit where she's finally landed a long awaited boyfriend to otherwise occupy her days.

I hate chronic winers. And spoiled entitled fanboys. And insecure posters who have to make it personal. But I actually get a kick out of folks who need to attack my screen name to make themselves feel validated. I've never had a reason to change pseudonyms.

 

[Ivan]

Short answer, no. The problem is the talent not the schemes. There is no way the Patriots are ever going to find any defensive coordinator who knows more about defense or how to scheme than Belichik does and bringing in someone just to give them a title makes no sense.

Although their stats were still off last season the Patriots had the youngest defense in football and all hopes were that they would build on that and show they were really improving this season, unfortunately the lost offseason stunted development of some young players, some bad personel decisions by Belichik, e.g James Sanders release, and a nasty rash of injuries to the secondary have all combined to lead to a worse defensive performance. I'll still hold out some hope that he can rally them the way the Colts did a few years back with the return of Spikes and Chung but can't say that my hopes are that high given last week's performance and the fact that they really haven't shown any consistent development all season. Belichik is going to have to address the defense this offseason as aggressively as he did the offense after the loss to the Colts in 2006 if he really wants them to take it to the next level for the rest of Brady's career, but brining in a DC from the outside really has no role in that and would probably be more of a detriment than a positive,

 

[MoLewisrocks]

So tell me Mo, the pats don't need a DC? Your rants make it sound like that's what you believe.

Can you explain why the defense has gone to **** since he has not had one?

Because he has been unable to identify sufficient talent to suit the scheme. And for the record it was starting to go to **** as you choose to characterize it back when we did have a DC named Mangini and we were dealing with injuries and aging and chose to gut it out only to have the same issues crop up in earnest a few years later when he had a DC named Pees at which time he attempted to fill the gaps on the fly via draft and FA only to miscalculate on a couple of stiffs and continue to be dogged by injury.

 

[Sciz]

So then it's his personnel decisions that are the problem?

Or is it both.

Sure don't take much to confuse you

Even the best personnel decisions in the world can't rebuild 96% of a defensive roster in a few years, and (I believe) Wilfork is the only guy on defense right now (with Wright on IR) to have been on the team in 07. Rebuilding the defense would have gone faster if Belichick had been perfect on his personnel decisions as opposed to just above average, but I don't think any other team in the NFL can say they've only had one constant over the last 4 years on defense.

 

[IllegalContact]

Even the best personnel decisions in the world can't rebuild 96% of a defensive roster in a few years, and (I believe) Wilfork is the only guy on defense right now (with Wright on IR) to have been on the team in 07. Rebuilding the defense would have gone faster if Belichick had been perfect on his personnel decisions as opposed to just above average, but I don't think any other team in the NFL can say they've only had one constant over the last 4 years on defense.

So when I'd the rebuilding start? And what pieces are in place for the long haul? What future greats are we looking at from thi rebuilding process?

Tralala lala!!!!

 

[ATippett56]

So when I'd the rebuilding start? And what pieces are in place for the long haul? What future greats are we looking at from the rebuilding process?

Tralala lala!!!!

Meriweather - gone
Wheatley - gone
Crable - gone
Wilhite - gone
Butler - gone
McKenzie - gone

If at first you don't succeed, try try again!

Cunningham - IR
Dowling - IR

 

[IcyPatriot]

This thread is dumb ............. :bricks:

 

[eagle eye]

I'm in the BB needs somebody to draft for defense camp.

 

[Sciz]

I'm in the BB needs somebody to draft for defense camp.

Like whom?

 

[Tunescribe]

58% of respondents to this poll want a new DC brought in to handle schemes and personnel...

Aside from that, has a Wade Phillips defense won a damn thing yet? Is Dom Capers D in GB any better than what he ran in Miami (hint GB isn't winning because of defense...). Each of them had a say in personnel selection during failed stints as HC's... Coordinators are never big picture guys. That is why they don't have much say in personnel selection. They may voice an opinion but it should generally be taken in context. That often derails their careers if they in fact get to the point where personnel is their call.

And please people, stop the RAC fantasies. He wants to be a HC. Same reason he left here is the reason he ain't coming back. They all do. They only take a step backwards when something happens that forces them to. In fact if Pioli doesn't allow him to become one again in KC he likely won't be his DC in 2012. He will finally take the Weis road to HCing and go find a college willing to pay him about the same money as an NFL franchise would. And I'd bet Wade and Dom are of the same mindset. HC or bust. There aren't many position coaches or coordinators in this game who are content with that being their lot in life. Scar is one of those rare birds. As was Jimmy Johnson. As was Steve Belichick. But by and large if you aren't ambitious you likely aren't driven and Bill wants guys who are driven and he also knows that you will lose them eventually if they were ever worth having... So if the choice is bringing in an ambitious guy who wants to be a HC and giving him free rein to turn this defense upside down and see how it shakes out...I'll pass and stay the course because the guy running to show now ain't going anywhere anytime soon.

I like to follow Greg Bedards tweets because he puts a lot of thought and reflection following tape study into them. He tweeted today that aside from some brief inaccuracy early and multiple TD DROPS, Brady was playing one his best games of the season. He also observed that the defensive scheme seems to be improving although injuries appear to be impacting the end result on that side of the ball. Patience is a virtue but few fans here are terribly virtuous. Or reflective. Entitled and demanding is the spirit of the times. Fantasy is the name of the game. They somehow equate name recognition and empty yardage stats with winning when outside of fantasy leagues more often than not nothing could be farther from the truth. Just ask Bill Polian. Or even Bill Cowher - since it took them years not to mention luck to win it all just once and the pressure of maintaining that level of performance drove Cowher into the booth for an extended sabatical.

Nobody's perfect, but patsfans should be far more greatful for than critical of the situation we find ourselves in today. And mindful of the old adage be careful what you wish for...

Bill Belichick needs to keep doing what he does, only he has to do some of it a little better. He doesn't need to be replaced or brought to heel any more than his QB does. What they both would benefit from is everyone around them doing a better job with as much consistency as they continue to display.

This is an excellent post and spot on. Reflects my sentiments exactly.