Chandler Jones Traded

[Love The Drake]

If the Patriots trade up in the early second for Braxton Miller it will be hard not to think about Chad Jackson.
When it comes to drafting receivers BB needs to take the Costanza approach ignore every instinct he has and pick completely the opposite.
For instance instead of little and quick 3 cone with questionable hands.
Big and long with less desirable 3 cone with Oven Mitts covered in glue for hands.

 

[Love The Drake]

If he leaves as a FA, yeah. That's why I included it on the "what we're giving up" side of the equation.

On the flip side if Cooper leaves for a big deal would we not also be awarded a comp pick?

 

[Bledsoehasaring]

I think we probably have different views on how well the Browns are run....



So we have a large enough sample size between Vereen and Jones to say that starting in a video with Edelman means your days with the team are numbered.

The obsession with josh gordon on this board is a joke. He is a guy that would take alot to get and is high risk. Name one player like that the pats have ever signed. He is never ever coming here. People who dont get this havent been paying attentional at all. Randy moss cost a fourth round pick.. Legarette blount cost us nothing. Talib was a fourth rounder which we got back when he left. Haynesworth was almost nothing.. Revis was the smallest contract he ever signed plus we got a third rounder when he left. Hernadez was a first round talent we got in the 4th round. We take risk when there is none. We do not give up high draft picks or star players even for a year for guys who arent even elgible to play and are one puff away from never playing again.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

Sorry, but Chandler Jones is not ALL-PRO. He's just not. He's very good, but not "ALL-PRO".

Don't tell that to the players that voted him to the Pro Bowl last year. He was far an away the best DL the Pat's had. They gave him away.

 

[manxman2601]

On the flip side if Cooper leaves for a big deal would we not also be awarded a comp pick?

Yes, but he'd have to have a hell of a season to warrant a high comp pick.

 

[Triumph]

Jones pixxed me off with that synthetic pot stunt last post season. Not what a leader does.

Overall Jones was decent and beast at times. Other times he vanished. Pats gain cap space, 2nd rounder and a possible solution at RG if Cooper can stay on the field. Good trade.

 

[DaBruinz]

So I said never, he said constant double teams, he's shown one clip, and he made his point?

SBB you go to all the home games, and watch every game. Do you notice Jones getting all this special attention?

Actually, neither Upstarter nor I said constant double teams. I went back and checked. So yes, you claiming NEVER and then him pointing out one does prove HIS point about you being wrong. Maybe you should just admit you mispoke and move on.

I watched all the games this year. I have reviewed the 12 that I was able to tape more than once. I saw Jones getting doubled quite a bit. As I said. More than half the time. And I felt that this explained why he would disappear for stretches.. Because he wasn't always good enough to beat them.

 

[manxman2601]

As an aside, I'm looking forward to seeing more from Trey Flowers next year. Looked really good in pre-season.

 

[DaBruinz]

Don't tell that to the players that voted him to the Pro Bowl last year. He was far an away the best DL the Pat's had. They gave him away.

Pro Bowl is not ALL-PRO. You are confusing the two..

 

[s3antana5757]

Really interesting move here. If get Cooper that was a top 10 pick, this is a great deal. This is definitely a football move. Just surprised at it.

 

[Gronk]

Who's gonna rush from the right side now? BB: "Whoever lines up there."

If Jones was constant doubled team and still produced 12.5 sacks, he'd been worth every penny.

Agree. Forget even the number of sacks though, if they guy was constantly getting hurries, wrecking Olines, and destroying backfields we'd all be worried about how to lock him up long term and who had to go to make it happen. Instead even most of his biggest supporters admit he was the least important of the 4 young D players coming up for contracts. This line of thinking was confirmed by BB trading him today.

Very good player, won't be surprised at all if he has a nice, productive career from here on out. He's not a franchise building block worth the cost at DE. Just because the Pats have lacked athletic DEs that collect solid sack numbers doesn't turn Chandler Jones into Reggie White.

I understand those who would rather have kept him for 2016, between Jones and Hicks they need some more bodies now but there's still a draft and some decent stopgaps in FA to be had. They'll be just fine.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Ah, that probably explains the discrepancies in cap hits, too, since Jones was hitting for the entirety of his 5th year option and Cooper seems to be pro-rated, so to speak.

The difference in cap hits is because Cooper is entering his fourth year and Jones is entering his fifth. The way first round contracts are set up is that the player is locked up for cheap for four years, and then before the fourth season they can choose to exercise the fifth-year option. For picks 1-10, the value of that option is the average of the 10 highest salaries at that player's position. For picks 11-32, the value is is the average of the 3rd-25th highest salaries at that position.

Since Jones was picked at 11-32, his fifth-year option value is the average of 3-25 in DE salaries, aka $8M. DEs get paid a ton, but averaging 3-25 obviously helps a lot compared to averaging the top 10. Since Cooper is only in his 4th year, he's still on the standard rookie salary, which is much cheaper. I was wrong before, though. Apparently the Pats *can* exercise Cooper's fifth-year option, since the window to do so doesn't close until May 3rd. I thought it had already come and gone, but it turns out that's not the case.

That said, since Cooper was a top-10 pick, his fifth-year option value is the average of the top 10 highest-paid guards, which comes out to $11.9M. I'd be shocked if the Pats exercise that option. That's an extremely steep price for any guard, let alone a guard that has spent no time with the organization and, based on his play, isn't worth half that.

 

[AzorianPats]

Actually, neither Upstarter nor I said constant double teams. I went back and checked. So yes, you claiming NEVER and then him pointing out one does prove HIS point about you being wrong. Maybe you should just admit you mispoke and move on.

I watched all the games this year. I have reviewed the 12 that I was able to tape more than once. I saw Jones getting doubled quite a bit. As I said. More than half the time. And I felt that this explained why he would disappear for stretches.. Because he wasn't always good enough to beat them.

And I'll go with guys like Zolak and Greg Bedard who are much, much more knowledgeable about this game then you or I that tell me Jones benefited from interior linemen pulling inside, worried about the threat of our LB blitzing the A gaps than Jones on the outside.

 

[Deus Irae]

On the flip side if Cooper leaves for a big deal would we not also be awarded a comp pick?

Yep... I pointed that out in the other thread. A simple breakdown of the deal is, basically, this:

Worst case: Cooper sucks and does nothing.
- In that event, the team goes forward with what they have, having gotten a 2016 2nd round pick and some cap space.

Good case: Cooper steps it up and becomes a legit player, while the 'rookies' come along slowly.
- In that case, the Patriots either have home team advantage in contract talks, or can let Cooper go and possibly gain another comp pick (would be for 2018).

Best case: Cooper steps it up and has a monster year, while the 'rookies' make a truly significant 2nd year jump.
- In that case, the IOL problems are solved, and the team has great depth there. At the end of the year, Cooper moves on to another team, and the Patriots are left with 3 quality starters on the IOL, as well as a shot at a 2018 comp pick.

 

[Bledsoehasaring]

Don't tell that to the players that voted him to the Pro Bowl last year. He was far an away the best DL the Pat's had. They gave him away.

We got a player drafted 7th overall who bb obviously thinks he can coach up and the 61st pick overall and 5 mil in cap space.. For a player who would be gone next year. How on earth is that giving him away? we couldnt even afford to franchise tag him next year because we have to pay players like butler, collins, and hightower. So im not sure what you expected.. We made out very well. I hate to see him go but this was a no brainer.

 

[DaBruinz]

And I'll go with guys like Zolak and Greg Bedard who are much, much more knowledgeable about this game then you or I that tell me Jones benefited from interior linemen pulling inside, worried about the threat of our LB blitzing the A gaps than Jones on the outside.

So, you again, change your argument to something you weren't saying earlier.

Interior linemen don't pull inside to pick up blitzing linebackers. They are already inside and they are responsible for them to begin with. I'm going to hazard that you have no clue what Zolak and Bedard said and are just trying to save face. Unfortunately, you've only made yourself look more ridiculous.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Being that it's only guaranteed for injury, the Pats can pick it up and cut him if he doesn't work out and it costs them nothing.

That's still a fairly significant risk, though. Players get injured a lot, and that's ignoring that Cooper in particular seems as susceptible to them as anyone, and perhaps more than most.

The way I look at the fifth-year option is that there's one question you need to ask first and foremost: is there any realistic chance that the player in question ends up being worth what the fifth-year option costs? Typically, the answer is yes. It certainly has been in the cases of all of our first rounders, partly because they're cheaper as 11-32 picks and partly because the Pats draft well.

But with Cooper, even in the best-case scenario, I don't see any way he's worth taking a $12M cap hit for next year. So what's the upside? At best, it maybe grants you some leverage in negotiating a long-term extension, but if everyone in the room knows you'll never actually pay the guy to play for that amount, then you don't get any of that either. Picking up Cooper's option entails a fair amount of risk in the event that he gets injured, all to protect your right to pay a player $12M next year when you pretty much know for a fact you wouldn't even want him for $12M per year. No matter how I look at it, there's nothing in it for the Pats.

I would be shocked if they pick up his option. Much better, IMO, to look at this as a deal for one year of a starter-caliber guard in Cooper. If he plays decently, maybe they resign him at a reasonable price that's a fraction of his fifth-year option. If he's so good that someone else is willing to pay him anything close to $12M per year next offseason, we let him walk and take the compensatory pick.

 

[DaBruinz]

I would be shocked if they pick up his option. Much better, IMO, to look at this as a deal for one year of a starter-caliber guard in Cooper. If he plays decently, maybe they resign him at a reasonable price that's a fraction of his fifth-year option. If he's so good that someone else is willing to pay him anything close to $12M per year next offseason, we let him walk and take the compensatory pick.

Yeah. I doubt they pick up the option either. With top guards like Alex Boone only getting about 6.6M/YR, I can't see Cooper getting more than that even if he becomes the next John Hannah..

 

[BradyFTW!]

I didn't think it would be possible for the Pats to pull a 2nd out of this... let alone a 2nd and a player at a position of need that has a lot of potential if he can stay healthy. I like this trade. Now I hope they either sign Long or draft another pass rusher. But additional 2nd gives them the ammo to move around and this is a very deep draft for DL.

I would be really happy with a short-ish deal (2-3 years) for Long, then the Pats use a big chunk of their remaining cap space to lock up and maybe even frontload one of Collins/Hightower. The other can subsequently be signed to a deal that's structured in a way that the cap hit stays manageable throughout the length of Long's contract.

Do all of that, and you've set yourself up very well for the future, without screwing over your cap in the present.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Don't tell that to the players that voted him to the Pro Bowl last year. He was far an away the best DL the Pat's had. They gave him away.

He gave away lots of running yards last year ... teams feasted running to his side. Very good DE ... not great full time player who is a situational player ... he cannot set the edge which is crucial to our defense. to be paid here what others would pay for him elsewhere he needs to be able to set the edge.