Are the Pats ready to deal Laurence Maroney?

[VJCPatriot]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

Once again, if you think that BJGE and Maroney are "fighting it out", then you instantly lose all credibility. BJGE was a pleasant surprise last year, but he isn't half the RB that Maroney is and he probably never will be. That's not even to say that Maroney's great, either. BJGE had one 100 yard game (in which he didn't break 4 YPC), and suddenly you guys think that he's on Maroney's level. It's kinda funny, really.

LOL, whether or not you think BJGE deserves a shot to fight it out with Maroney, that still doesn't change the fact that he's the 4th string RB at best for the Pats right now. Unless he really turns things around, unlikely but not out of the question, his value for production is quite a bit lower than BJGE's.

So tell me what has Maroney ever done to deserve 'sacred cow' status anyways? Cassel has done more in 1 season than maroney has done in 3. That's why he netted a high 2nd round pick after the Pats only invested a 7th rounder in him. Maroney on the other hand, the Pats invested a 1st round pick and he might be out of the league by the end of 09. Talk about Bad Return on Investment.

Another question. How many would rather have Matt Forte (2nd round pick) or Laurence Maroney (1st round pick)? I think your answer, if honest, is pretty revealing.

 

[Rob0729]

Hey folks!

I'm Chris, the author of this article. I conjured up the idea and wrote the article in about 15 minutes the other day before heading out to work. I obviously whiffed. lol

There are many obvious flaws in my logic here, and I think it's kinda funny that patriots.com snagged it for their news blitz.

Either way... thanks for contributing to the 4000+ views that article got! haha

Hey, it happens. It happens to me virtually every day on this board. Kudos, for coming over here and admitting your mistake in logic.

 

[Rob0729]

I've never really understood the Maroney bashing. When he's healthy, and when he actually gets the carry the ball a good amount, he usually comes through. He made a ton of plays back when he was splitting carries with Dillon in '06 and was great down the stretch in '07 when the Pats actually started to run the ball. The only problem I have with him is his durability.

I feel Maroney has his flaws. He is indecisive at times, but I do agree with the sentintiment that the o-line has trouble blocking for his style and much of the problem with him not getting yards falls on them. Maroney is a homerun hitter when he gets his chances, but many times he is hit right after he gets the ball from Brady too.

 

[JackBauer]

JB- Why are you trying to drag me in on this? I like Maroney. But he is wampum. I am only suggesting that if he is removed from the depth chart and swapped for a pick or part of a trade etc., it might not be a bad idea if you get back value. IMO (make sure you understand that term) he will not make a difference on our running game whatsoever in 2009 one way or the other. He is not a necessary part. Maybe that is what this post is all about. Is L. Maroney a necessary part for the success of the 2009 Pats or can we do without him? Answer that Cousin.

Because you're one of the worst and most consistent offenders, not only with Maroney but with Sanders as well.

I'd love to answer your question, but I can't really decipher your reasoning. You like Maroney, but in your opinion he will not make a difference on the running game in 2009?

How many players are truly necessary for the success of the Pats this year? Not that many -- Maroney included. In fact, I think the list is relatively small: Brady, Wilfork, Mayo. But regardless it makes no sense to trade him, since it's worth more to take a chance on him than to trade him away while his value is at its nadir.

will get some carries, but behind Taylor and Morris and certainly won't exceed theirs. Someone said they got Taylor just because he was available.....what?

The first statement is baseless speculation.

The reason they got Taylor is because he's still a decent back at this stage in his career, and our running backs don't have a great history of staying healthy. But then again, neither does Taylor.

stand by my statement that his has very poor field vision. Ya..I know...prove it, but you know what, you guys never do and say it is our opinion. It's your opinion. I don't watch him on the radio Cousin. Show me anywhere where BB or by anyone in the league that has stated that Maroney has good vision. I have gotten this little trick down now.

That's great. Problem is plenty of statistics have been provided to that end. Granted, there is no quantitative measure for "vision," but the preponderance of evidence, such as production when healthy and DVOA, suggests his vision is just fine. All you have is your opinion, which is to say very little.

Show me where anyone has said Maroney doesn't have good vision.

never said he didn't have good YPC. I said he goes down on the first hit (now tell me to prove that one) and he has not been a good blocker to date at all, so a third down back is far fetched.

Yes, go ahead and prove it if you think you can.

Morris isn't a great blocker, either. And I've never suggested Maroney would be a good fit as a third-down back.

This will solve a lot of questions for me. I am just curious Jack? Do you think that there is one single player on the Pats that could be replaced or traded or is everyone on this team your sacred cow? BB will play the best player that fits what BB wants and that will do his job regardless of status or draft ranking. Because Maroney was a one or if BB offers praise, it does not mean a thing until Sunday.

Sure there are. The problem is that you choose players you dislike for irrational reasons.

I don't particularly like Jarvis Green (for the money) or Billy Yates. Bruschi can't run and is a liability in the middle but he'll likely stick due to lack of depth/vet leadership.

I hope Maroney has a fifteen hundred yard season but he will get maybe ten touches a game and I think we all agree on that.

If he's healthy, he'll get more than ten touches a game. So no, we don't agree.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

LOL, whether or not you think BJGE deserves a shot to fight it out with Maroney, that still doesn't change the fact that he's the 4th string RB at best for the Pats right now. Unless he really turns things around, unlikely but not out of the question, his value for production is quite a bit lower than BJGE's.

So tell me what has Maroney ever done to deserve 'sacred cow' status anyways? Cassel has done more in 1 season than maroney has done in 3. That's why he netted a high 2nd round pick after the Pats only invested a 7th rounder in him. Maroney on the other hand, the Pats invested a 1st round pick and he might be out of the league by the end of 09. Talk about Bad Return on Investment.

Another question. How many would rather have Matt Forte (2nd round pick) or Laurence Maroney (1st round pick)? I think your answer, if honest, is pretty revealing.

He's not a sacred cow. He's simply the most talented starting RB on the roster (Faulk, for all intents and purposes, plays a different position). Taylor and Morris are more consistent, but Maroney, at this stage in their respective careers, brings the most to the field when healthy. And once again, even if I agreed for the sake of argument that Taylor and Morris were better, it still wouldn't matter. Belichick has shown that he likes to rotate at least 3 feature backs, both to keep them fresh and to hedge against injuries. So even if Maroney is the fourth-best RB, he still has a bunch of value to this team, and is still far, far better than BJGE. Even the third-best RB (fourth-best if you throw faulk in there) will probably start some games and average 10+ touches per game for large periods of time while at least one other RB is hurt.

I would rather have Matt Forte than Maroney, of course. Not sure how that's supposed to be revealing, though. Once again, draft position doesn't matter anymore. There isn't a single person on this thread who has argued that Maroney's lived up to his first-round draft status, because he obviously hasn't. But rather than continue to whine and complain about it, the rest of us have taken it for what it is and looked at him in terms of what he can do for us from here on out.

Have you ever heard of the term sunk cost? If not, I'd recommend reading up on it, because it's pretty applicable here. As intelligent guys, I absolutely guarantee that this is how Belichick, Pioli (now Caserio/Reese) and Ernie Adams look at the talent on their roster. Simply put, stuff that's in the past: draft position, signing bonus, whatever, is over, done, and can't be changed. In other words, it is what it is. All that matters in evaluating a player is what he can do for you going forward and how much he'll cost you going forward

In Maroney's case, going forward, the Pats have a cost-controlled young player for 1-2 more years who, while lacking durability so far in his career, has not only showed potential to be a very good runner but has actually been a productive one when he's on the field. You don't get Maroney's success rate and DVOA by being a lousy RB, plain and simple.

Your complete inability to understand even as basic a logical principle as sunk cost actually has me a little worried for you.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Dumbest article I have ever read. How does trading Maroney free up enough cap space for Peppers? Why would Carolina want Maroney?

 

[VJCPatriot]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

He's not a sacred cow. He's simply the most talented starting RB on the roster (Faulk, for all intents and purposes, plays a different position).

Where you say 'talent' I see unfulfilled potential. Chad Jackson might have had the most potential out of any of the Pats receivers not named Randy Moss. Guess what store he's bagging groceries for today? Maroney is NOT BETTER than Fred Taylor, Sammy Morris, or Kevin Faulk right now. Reality - Maroney's a 4th string RB who will be fighting for his NFL life in 2009.

I would rather have Matt Forte than Maroney, of course.

Thank you for your honesty. Even the Patriots are not infallible in their drafting. There's no need to defend their past mistakes, their good picks generally outweigh their bad picks and their overall record speaks for itself.

Have you ever heard of the term sunk cost? If not, I'd recommend reading up on it, because it's pretty applicable here.

Sure Maroney's a sunk cost alright. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't call a plug nickel a plug nickel. As in he ain't worth a plug nickel in trade value. So we're stuck with him. Nowhere in this thread have I advocated trading him because I simply don't think we'll get anything worth the trouble of the trade. Hopefully Maroney will finally 'get it' and do something like run for 1,200 yards and make me see stars in my eyes. However I'm not going to hold my breath and have every reason to be skeptical until he does something worth getting excited about.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

Where you say 'talent' I see unfulfilled potential. Chad Jackson might have had the most potential out of any of the Pats receivers not named Randy Moss. Guess what store he's bagging groceries for today? Maroney is NOT BETTER than Fred Taylor, Sammy Morris, or Kevin Faulk right now. Reality - Maroney's a 4th string RB who will be fighting for his NFL life in 2009.



Thank you for your honesty. Even the Patriots are not infallible in their drafting. There's no need to defend their past mistakes, their good picks generally outweigh their bad picks and their overall record speaks for itself.



Sure Maroney's a sunk cost alright. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't call a plug nickel a plug nickel. As in he ain't worth a plug nickel in trade value. So we're stuck with him. Nowhere in this thread have I advocated trading him because I simply don't think we'll get anything worth the trouble of the trade. Hopefully Maroney will finally 'get it' and do something like run for 1,200 yards and make me see stars in my eyes. However I'm not going to hold my breath and have every reason to be skeptical until he does something worth getting excited about.

Forte wouldn't have run for a yard more than Maroney did in 2006 because he'd have been paired up with the aging but heavily contracted Dillon and Faulk. Odds are he'd have gotten hurt in the process too and you'd have no use for him now, either.

Morris missed 13 games in two seasons here. Jordon missed 8 in 1. Taylor ran for 567 yards and 1 TD in 13 games last season...

Maroney remains the player with the most upside. He's 24, just like Forte, and he's accumulated just as many yards albeit under vastly different circumstances. Maroney has the better average... We'll see how they each fare this season.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

Where you say 'talent' I see unfulfilled potential. Chad Jackson might have had the most potential out of any of the Pats receivers not named Randy Moss. Guess what store he's bagging groceries for today?

His 4.4 YPC, 58% success rating, and DVOA all say otherwise. Could he be better? Absolutely. Is he an effective and talented running back as is? Absolutely. Jackson had potential when he was drafted, sure, but after he blew out his ACL his rookie year, it went away. Post-injury, he no longer had the athleticism to give him considerable upside. Jackson and Maroney aren't comparable in any meaningful way. Also, he's not bagging groceries: he's a wide receiver for the Denver Broncos.

Maroney is NOT BETTER than Fred Taylor, Sammy Morris, or Kevin Faulk right now. Reality - Maroney's a 4th string RB who will be fighting for his NFL life in 2009.

Based on what? Morris also missed significant time with injury last year and was by no means spectacular when he did play, and Taylor's production plummeted. Go back to mid/late 2007, and Maroney was nearly as good as Taylor. I compared them against each other on a carry-by-carry basis over the entire 2007 season a couple days ago: Taylor was better, but towards the end of the year when the Pats started using Maroney it evened out pretty quickly.

So given that, I look at last year. I think that Taylor is still capable of being a strong contributor, but a 33 year old RB falling off a cliff, regardless of OL issues, worries me more than a 24 year old RB being shut down because his shoulder wasn't fully healed. Both are going to be contributors this year, but I'd be legitimately surprised if Taylor gets more touches over the course of the season than Maroney. Care to state your reasoning for why you think that the opposite is the case?

As for Morris, he's played in 19 games over the past 2 seasons, so don't pretend that he has a durability advantage. I'll agree that Morris has been marginally better when he has played, but it's closer than you seem to think. Neither's a good blocker, so that's not really the differentiator either. What is the differentiator is that Maroney is 24 and getting better, while Morris is 32 and getting worse.

Thank you for your honesty. Even the Patriots are not infallible in their drafting. There's no need to defend their past mistakes, their good picks generally outweigh their bad picks and their overall record speaks for itself.

The Pats picked a good player. Sure, another player was available later who has had a better single season, but that does not make the Maroney pick a mistake. We haven't gotten what we wanted out of Maroney, but that does not by any stretch make him a terrible pick.

Sure Maroney's a sunk cost alright. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't call a plug nickel a plug nickel. As in he ain't worth a plug nickel in trade value. So we're stuck with him. Nowhere in this thread have I advocated trading him because I simply don't think we'll get anything worth the trouble of the trade. Hopefully Maroney will finally 'get it' and do something like run for 1,200 yards and make me see stars in my eyes. However I'm not going to hold my breath and have every reason to be skeptical until he does something worth getting excited about.

Nope, you clearly don't understand a sunk cost. You have to evaluate Maroney for what he is (an effective, starter-caliber RB), and not what you think he should be because he was drafted in the later part of the first round (a superstar).

I can already tell you right now that Maroney is not going to run for 1200 yards. Nobody in this offense will. It contradict's Belichick's entire philosophy for RBs. He saw firsthand what the workhorse single-back system did to Corey Dillon: it's no coincidence that, since then, he's loaded up on RBs that can capably start. It's better to have 3 Morris/Maroney/Jordan/Taylor caliber players than one LT/Larry Johnson, who pile up yards all season and limp into the playoffs and an early exit.

At the end of the day, as always, you're just throwing empty hyperbole around. You're declaring the same point over and over again, and have not at any point made any actual attempt to *support* your argument. As is typically the case, the longer this goes, the more transparent you become: you simply can't support your opinion, because it is ignorant and not based in reality.

 

[DW Toys]

Because you're one of the worst and most consistent offenders, not only with Maroney but with Sanders as well.

I'd love to answer your question, but I can't really decipher your reasoning. You like Maroney, but in your opinion he will not make a difference on the running game in 2009?

How many players are truly necessary for the success of the Pats this year? Not that many -- Maroney included. In fact, I think the list is relatively small: Brady, Wilfork, Mayo. But regardless it makes no sense to trade him, since it's worth more to take a chance on him than to trade him away while his value is at its nadir.



The first statement is baseless speculation.

The reason they got Taylor is because he's still a decent back at this stage in his career, and our running backs don't have a great history of staying healthy. But then again, neither does Taylor.



That's great. Problem is plenty of statistics have been provided to that end. Granted, there is no quantitative measure for "vision," but the preponderance of evidence, such as production when healthy and DVOA, suggests his vision is just fine. All you have is your opinion, which is to say very little.

Show me where anyone has said Maroney doesn't have good vision.



Yes, go ahead and prove it if you think you can.

Morris isn't a great blocker, either. And I've never suggested Maroney would be a good fit as a third-down back.



Sure there are. The problem is that you choose players you dislike for irrational reasons.

I don't particularly like Jarvis Green (for the money) or Billy Yates. Bruschi can't run and is a liability in the middle but he'll likely stick due to lack of depth/vet leadership.



If he's healthy, he'll get more than ten touches a game. So no, we don't agree.

Offenders? You win Jack O.K.? Your "go out and prove it to me" reversal of logic is your whole defense. I sir....., say you prove it not to be true. I am speechless when you say basically let's wait to trade him when he could be worthless next year. Jack you are much smarter than that. I see how smart you can get. Don't hide behind your own, I believe you use the word "baseless", assumptions.
I didn't say you said he would be a great third down back now did I? That was someone else.

I don't dislike Maroney. He's a good kid but a very disappointing career to date and in a bad position here to revive it. Maybe he needs a change of scenery. My whole train of thought on this thread was "IF" they could get something of value for him? IMO trade him. In addition I said he was not going to make a difference one way or the other in 2009, so why not try to upgrade your team if he indeed is a bargaining chip.
I do not know how much clearer I can be.

As for Sanders.....you brought him up. My feeling on him as the same as yours on Green and leave it at that. Irrational on my "concerns" of some professional players? It appears I do not stand alone. It is opinion Jack, based on watching rather than radio. As an example, when a guy constantly blows coverage angles and misses tackles or a running back dances instead of going north and south, I can actually see that. I don't need Marshall Faulk or Dan Marino or John Madden to clarify.

All that being said, you win Jack. I am just completely wrong. Now smile. Happy Easter Cousin!
DW Toys

 

[Synovia]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

Maroney is NOT BETTER than Fred Taylor, Sammy Morris, or Kevin Faulk right now.

Yes, he is. Every single objective statistic points to Maroney being the best RB on the roster. He's not fighting for a spot, hes THE STARTER.

 

[Synovia]

Offenders? You win Jack O.K.? Your "go out and prove it to me" reversal of logic is your whole defense. I sir....., say you prove it not to be true

Thats not how logic works.


he has proven it to not be true. Above average YPC. Great DVOA. Fantastic success rate. Everything points to Maroney being good, except your opionion.


Oppinions are like a**holes; Everyone has them, and most of them stink. Yours does.

 

[rabthepat]

Maroney is the "Sammy Davis Jr." of running backs. He is a big time dancer and soft shoe when it comes to hitting the hole and taking the ball up field.

He is also easier to tackle than a blind kid in a wheel chair.

 

[Synovia]

Maroney is the "Sammy Davis Jr." of running backs. He is a big time dancer and soft shoe when it comes to hitting the hole and taking the ball up field.

He is also easier to tackle than a blind kid in a wheel chair.

Except he still gets more yards than everyone else on the roster. Loses less, is more succesfull, etc.


So, despite you thinking hes a *****, hes still better than the rest of the RBs.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Offenders? You win Jack O.K.? Your "go out and prove it to me" reversal of logic is your whole defense. I sir....., say you prove it not to be true.

That's not how logic works. Jack's already made a strong case for his point, and you've given no evidence to support your position. Unless you can, then you're going to rightfully written off by any rational person on this board

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

bringing you a show with no intoxication
so feel the vibration

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

Yes, he is. Every single objective statistic points to Maroney being the best RB on the roster. He's not fighting for a spot, hes THE STARTER.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. The only reason he will stay on the roster is because he is cheap, young and talented. However, VJCPatriot is right, Sammy Morris, Fred Taylor and Kevin Faulk are better than Maroney as of right now. While Maroney may have more "talent", it really doesn't matter if you can't stay on the field. Maroney is not the starting RB by default. This time, he is going to have to prove that he should be the starting RB. I predict that Fred Taylor will be the starter with Morris and Maroney splitting time giving Taylor a breather. Finally, Faulk is the 3rd down back.

Maroney is the "Sammy Davis Jr." of running backs. He is a big time dancer and soft shoe when it comes to hitting the hole and taking the ball up field.

He is also easier to tackle than a blind kid in a wheel chair.

There are bizarre times when Maroney is running full steam and either falls down by shoe string tackle or the blow of wind. In fact, I've seen him trip over his on feet in open field. On the other hand, there are times when Maroney is running full steam and stiff arms guys to the ground or runs them over. Right now, it's safe to say Maroney is just inconsistent with his style of play.

 

[Synovia]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

VJCPatriot is right, Sammy Morris, Fred Taylor and Kevin Faulk are better than Maroney as of right now.

According to what? Maroney has a higher YPC, DVOA, Success rate, etc, than any of the other backs on the team. The only one who has a legitimate argument is Faulk, who is a better receiver and blocker, but nowhere near the runner.

 

[Synovia]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

\ I predict that Fred Taylor will be the starter with Morris and Maroney splitting time giving Taylor a breather. Finally, Faulk is the 3rd down back.

Taylor was terrible last year. Absolutely terrible.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Are the New England Patriots Ready To Deal Laurence Maroney?

I wouldn't be so sure of that. The only reason he will stay on the roster is because he is cheap, young and talented. However, VJCPatriot is right, Sammy Morris, Fred Taylor and Kevin Faulk are better than Maroney as of right now. While Maroney may have more "talent", it really doesn't matter if you can't stay on the field. Maroney is not the starting RB by default. This time, he is going to have to prove that he should be the starting RB. I predict that Fred Taylor will be the starter with Morris and Maroney splitting time giving Taylor a breather. Finally, Faulk is the 3rd down back.

Games missed, 2007 and 2008 (including playoffs):

Maroney: 16
Morris: 16

Putting Maroney behind Morris on the depth chart because Maroney "can't stay on the field" makes absolutely no sense (at best).