Lets face the facts (homers not welcome)

BSR · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

danny88 said:
You are all missing my point. IN the eyes of the entire world we will be cheats. We can break down the situation with facts.

Sadly the masses and media cannot. I just think it is a shame that all that hard work and winning will be cheapened. The masses will never give us the credit we deserve if Spector has his way.

Get used to the cheaters and tainted comments. They are here forever. That's the truth and you all know it.

Tuck rule.

They hate their coach.

McGinest faked an injury

Illegal contact.

3 superbowls by 3 points each.

Belichick dresses like a homless person.

If you really are a patriots fan, how AREN'T you already used to this?

MVPKiller · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

A rule was broken, a fine was issued. Why is this discussion STILL taking place? This "The Super Bowls are tainted" nonsense is getting old. Unless the footballs Adam Vinatieri kicked to win SB36 & 38 were full of helium, and we secretly poisoned McNabb to have him dry heaving with nervousness... I think it is safe to say we didn't cheat to win those games... Gaining a competitive advantage, and executing on the field are 2 different things. Anyone who thinks the game is won or lost on gameplan alone, has never played the sport.

upstater1 · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

danny88 said:
You are all missing my point. IN the eyes of the entire world we will be cheats. We can break down the situation with facts.

Sadly the masses and media cannot. I just think it is a shame that all that hard work and winning will be cheapened. The masses will never give us the credit we deserve if Spector has his way.

Get used to the cheaters and tainted comments. They are here forever. That's the truth and you all know it.

Sack up, stop whining.

ALP · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

until it is proven to me that other teams were not doing what we were doing, then i dont buy anything...

also, do u know of what we are accused? we are accused of taping another coaches signals....but that is not agsaint nfl policy and it is not cheating...
we did it from the field, and that is the part that is wrong and illegal....

and that has to come out, Roger needs to hold a conference, tell the world staright taht BB had tapes since 2000, and that they are all against the rules......BUT he will only dock us a 5th round pick and give back our 1st round pick, b/c the only thing the pats ddi was tape from an improper location...and that taping of defensive coaches in genearl is completely allowed....

otherwise things are gonna get real interesting

btw, what was that thing with the notice? i thought taping was illegal after Goodell's notice to the league, which happened last offseason...

FirstAndGoal · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

I guess the way to really look at this is that some people are fans of football and like watching it when it's played well while others are fans of the Patriots because they have been successful.

I know that when I watch a Patriots game, I'm going to watch good football being played. I'm not embarrassed by someone's words. I'm embarrassed by people who can't enjoy the game unless they're on top and run at the first hint of trouble.

I want BB to coach here because I believe in what he's doing. I don't know a better coach. I'm also a guy who owns zero Patriots gear and don't care to own any. You can see me at most home games in my street clothes though.

Here's my view, the Patriots have given us 7+ years of good football and everything else is icing on the cake. The bandwagon plays loud and clear when times are good and when times are bad you can always tell when they fall off. tThe problem is that the bandwagon tends to play as loud when they're falling off as they play when times are good. The difference is that they play a different tune. It would be nice if they just fell off without being bitter about it though.

aluminum seats · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

BSR said:
If you are concerned that the championships are tainted, then you are taking this all way too seriously. Its a game and entertainment. There isn't any shame to feel because there isn't anything that you or any of us did to feel shame about. Its the same problem with many sports fans where they put in so much emotional equity into their team that they almost feel a part of it and gain a bit of self worth from their rooting interest. Its silly and once you put it in percpective the whole idea of tainted championships becomes equally as silly.

If someone gives you a hard time about rooting for a team with "tainted" championships I suggest you turn the tables on them. There is hardly any teams without their share of controversy. Are they from New York? Those two Giants championships with BB are equally as tainted and lets not forget their beloved Yankees which won with the likes of Petites, Clemens and Knobby as the core of their teams. Are they from Denver or San Fran? Salary cap violations. Dallas? Jimmy admitted to doing the same things.

This is big buisness and in any big business there are questionable activities that look more so when skewed through the lens of public opinion. Any fan that that derives some self worth from the purity of their teams accomplishments even though they have no inkling of what their team is doing behind the scenes is a moron and should be regarded as such. Ignore them or even better laugh at them. You will totaly disarm them when they cant figure out why their barbs don't effect you since you derive your self worth from your actual self and not your rooting interest.

It's certainly true that fans can take things too seriously, but you go a bit too far the other way--if you just view all sports as business/entertainment, I'm not sure you're a fan.....maybe just someone who appreciates sport. All fans do gain a measure of self-worth from the success of their teams--that's why we're happy when they win. Otherwise, what would it matter who won, if we're just viewing it objectively as entertainment and business. Why we feel that way, or if we should, are separate conversations, but the reality is, that's what a fan is.

Metaphors · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

MVPKiller said:
I think it is safe to say we didn't cheat to win those games... Gaining a competitive advantage, and executing on the field are 2 different things. Anyone who thinks the game is won or lost on gameplan alone, has never played the sport.

Your conclusion is fine, but your supporting logic is flawed. If you gain a competitive advantage by obtaining information not available to other teams (closed practice), then a victory would be tainted. The talent level for most teams is very close. Coaching and gameplans can be a huge difference between winning and losing.

Taping signs did not give the Pats information that other teams couldn't get themselves, so they earned every victory.

BrianPat · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

danny88 said:
You are all missing my point. IN the eyes of the entire world we will be cheats. We can break down the situation with facts.

Sadly the masses and media cannot. I just think it is a shame that all that hard work and winning will be cheapened. The masses will never give us the credit we deserve if Spector has his way.

Get used to the cheaters and tainted comments. They are here forever. That's the truth and you all know it.

The fact that the media and rabid fans think everything is tainted is a joke, who care what those morons think !! I'll go with the hall of fame coaches and players that think Bill is one of the best coaches in the league and who's integrity is untouchable. Jimmy Johnson slams any perceptions about Bill that questions his integrity. In my opinion, history will look back at this as a witch hunt against the best team in the NFL at the time based on jealousy and envy and those high and mighty haters will look like fools.

Any Patriot fan that agrees that the SB are tainted, is allowing themselves to be brainwashed by the media, in my opinion !! Switch teams if it offends you !

Walsh is a loser who's playing the crowd for his 15 minutes of fame and getting it huge. Spector isn't going to get anything out of him because I don't think he has anything to give and will always fall back on the " Can't say anything because I'll be liable ". Also, if I were Kraft and Spector told me to release Walsh from the non diclosure agreement, I'd tell Spector to stuff it ! Sorry, he knows too much company secrets that have nothing to do with Spygate, have a nice day ;-) I wonder if Walsh really knows nothing about the RAMs game but knows he could sell tons about how the Pats work their magic, but unless he's released from the non disclosure , he can't sell it !!

Poker · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

Danny ironically is probably right that we will hear about this as fans for a logn time. However, I don't think this latest incident with Specter really adds to it at all--it was going to happen anyway.

I agree with all the posters who say it is much more important to look inside yourself and ask how you judge what happened, how we as fans personally choose to feel about the taping epidode. Danny, when people tell you to "grow a pair" or toughen up, they are calling you to task because you seem to have despair because of what other people will be thinking. It's cowardly not to add what YOU think about this--take a stand.

For me personally, I am willing to absolve the Pats/BB and move on. They broke a rule, but the most important part to me is that there was nothing sneaky or insidious about it. They did it in broad daylight, and the fact that they were doing it back to 2000 only strenghtens their position in my view. BB and Goodell are telling it like it is: BB interpreted the rules/facts one way, Goodell another, they agree to disagree, Pats must accept punishment and move on. It's painfully obvious to me that BB didn't hide anything from Goodell at all--he chose the defense of giving them everything, telling them exactly what he did and why, and let the chips fall where they may. It's the only explanation that makes sense.

At worst, BB was guilty of bending the rules a little, interpreting them in an advantageous way, but I personally don't think that is nearly as harsh as cooking up something really sinister and clandestine.

Run it up baby! · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

danny88 said:
You are all missing my point. IN the eyes of the entire world we will be cheats. We can break down the situation with facts.

Sadly the masses and media cannot. I just think it is a shame that all that hard work and winning will be cheapened. The masses will never give us the credit we deserve if Spector has his way.

Get used to the cheaters and tainted comments. They are here forever. That's the truth and you all know it.

LOL! WHAT?! Ooooh, Danny Boy, that's a straight up lie and you know it. In your first post you said yourself that the SuperBowls are tainted, not that "IN the eyes of the entire world we will be cheats." You even went as far as to say you would be angry at BB, and would be ashamed. Ashamed? ASHAMED?! What kind of fan are you that you're ashamed of your team for breaking a technicality?!

As far as your "Our SB's are tainted!!!!!" comments, it's untrue, and I can't believe this tread made it 4 pages without this being mentioned, but......The "rule" that he Patriots broke was not even a rule until 2006, so even if they had been filming with 45 cameramen per game since 2000, they broke no rule in their 3 Championship seasons, therefore nothing is tainted, and no logical arguement can be made that they are tainted just based on this fact alone, so who cares what other people say? They're the idiots that can't think up rational thoughts on their own, so why do you even care what they have to say?

We can break down the situation with facts.

Sadly the masses and media cannot.

Oops, looks like you're on of those people that cannot.

DaBruinz · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

danny88 said:
You are all missing my point. IN the eyes of the entire world we will be cheats. We can break down the situation with facts.

Sadly the masses and media cannot. I just think it is a shame that all that hard work and winning will be cheapened. The masses will never give us the credit we deserve if Spector has his way.

Get used to the cheaters and tainted comments. They are here forever. That's the truth and you all know it.

Danny, considering that what you said in your original post is not what you are saying here, how could anyone "get your point?"

As for the "masses," they've never given the Patriots players the credit they deserve. Since the Pats won their 1st SB, fans of other teams have continued to treat the Patriots like the bastard step-child of the league. So, why would ANYONE expect the "masses" to start giving the Patriots, their players and their coaches credit?

Why should I get used to something that is completely irrelevant and untrue? I will continue to tell others the same things I said in this thread.

All teams film games and film the sidelines. The only "RULE" the Patriots broke was having their camera on the sidelines and not in an NFL Approved area.

upstater1 · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

aluminum seats said:
It's certainly true that fans can take things too seriously, but you go a bit too far the other way--if you just view all sports as business/entertainment, I'm not sure you're a fan.....maybe just someone who appreciates sport. All fans do gain a measure of self-worth from the success of their teams--that's why we're happy when they win. Otherwise, what would it matter who won, if we're just viewing it objectively as entertainment and business. Why we feel that way, or if we should, are separate conversations, but the reality is, that's what a fan is.

I don't agree with that. It's perfectly fine that you do. But i my opinion, that's not the only definition of a fan. I agree with the original poster on this. And that's someone who paid $4500 to watch the Patriots this year in 6 separate games (I spent $1500 on the AFCCG alone).

BSR · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

aluminum seats said:
It's certainly true that fans can take things too seriously, but you go a bit too far the other way--if you just view all sports as business/entertainment, I'm not sure you're a fan.....maybe just someone who appreciates sport. All fans do gain a measure of self-worth from the success of their teams--that's why we're happy when they win. Otherwise, what would it matter who won, if we're just viewing it objectively as entertainment and business. Why we feel that way, or if we should, are separate conversations, but the reality is, that's what a fan is.

Thier is certainly a line but I don't think it is a very narrow line. When you start to worry about the public perception of your championships from years ago, I think you need to readjust your percpective. Is it really worth losing sleep over like Danny is doing? I don't think so. In fact, I probably wasted too much of my time on this subject here already.

Nitro · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

all this stupidity over what everyone in a stadium can watch. what a joke.

Metaphors · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

fattypj said:
If you don't want us to run up the score, don't let us score...

If you don't want to be called cheaters, don't cheat. :horn:

If you don't want to be called a moron, don't post.

mdhprime · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

Remember, the only person bringing up Spygate now (with exception of the sensationalist, unthinking and lazy media) is the senator from PA. He is using the sabre-rattling of a seemingly disgruntled ex-Patriots employee, one who decided not to furnish his so called evidence during the initial investigation, and using the entire situation to gain political capital with the people of PA, a state which is home to two teams the Patriots have defeated in big games during the last few years. This is nothing but a political move that the NFL obviously has no interest in. It is interesting to note that no other politician has joined the senator's cause in regards to this case; he is full of sound and fury if you ask me. The Patriots broke a minor rule. They confessed to it and paid a very steep penalty. That should be enough for the average football fan and certainly more than enough for anyone who calls themselves a Patriots fan.

eom · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

Metaphors said:
If you don't want to be called a moron, don't post.

.

aluminum seats · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

upstater1 said:
I don't agree with that. It's perfectly fine that you do. But i my opinion, that's not the only definition of a fan. I agree with the original poster on this. And that's someone who paid $4500 to watch the Patriots this year in 6 separate games (I spent $1500 on the AFCCG alone).

I think it is the only definition of a fan.....other people might follow sports for different reasons. But when you have 60,000 getting up, screaming and pumping their fists for a team, they clearly feel a part of it--self-worth, etc.

JoeSixPat · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

danny88 said:
If beli and co where infact taping teams dating all the way back since Beli started to coach this team , our sb's are tainted. Now I know this is hard to accept. I know that a lot of people do it. But until another team is busted for the same thing , or some type of real proof comes out that this was a leauge wide issue , we are going to be looked at as cheats. Nothing will change that.

People need to keep in mind that Videotaping games is legal.

Or have they and Specter overlooked the fact that ManJudas himself openly admitted taping a Patriots game?

The specific taping of signals is another matter. We, unlike Specter, all I know is that until 2006 it was only the actual game day USE of those tapes that the rule prohibited.

The taping itself, apparently by the letter of the rule - was allowed, just like taping the games continues to be allowed today.

Of course, that's a rule about taping the games themselves.

I'm unclear on what the rule about taping PRACTICES is. If the NFL doesn't have a rule about that and a team has an open practice and/or doesn't have their own security enforcing a closed practice - that's their call, not the NFL's.

makewayhomer · Feb 14, 2008

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

upstater1 said:
By saying "Perception is more important than reality" you're essentially saying, it's ok to be sniveling hypocrite.

Hey, I'm not going to deny your right to validate hypocrisy.

no, I'm saying that some people are dumb.

for certain people, the perception of the situation (the Patriots only won by cheating) is what they think is true, instead of the actual reality (the Patriots gained little or no edge from their rule breaking).

I'm not saying it should be that way, I'm saying thats the way it is, whether we like it or not.

you know all those polls that vote on the "Best Dynasty Ever" etc etc? I would like the Pats to win those polls. I think thats fun. but the taping scandal is going to diminish our past and maybe even future accomplishments in the eyes of many.

and thats too bad.

thats my point.

Lets face the facts (homers not welcome)

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