Lets face the facts (homers not welcome)

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

What I find amazing is that seven months later this still qualifies as news.

Lets review the situation in Sept:

BB never denied taping defensive signals. He claimed the rule was open to interpretation and that he was not breaking any rules.

Godell disagreed and said that it violated the current rules as set forth at the beginning of the 2006 season.

BB was order to turn over any tapes or notes that were acquired in violation of the 2006 rule. BB was punished for violating said rule.

Breaking News 7 months later: The Patriots may have engaged in behavior in 2000-2005, that violated a rule enacted in 2006.

 

[eom]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

could someone change the thread title to 'the no homers club'?

 

[makewayhomer]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

The Patriots may have engaged in behavior in 2000-2005, that violated a rule enacted in 2006.

well I dont think any of us really know if that is true or not...I dont have a copy of the NFL rulebook from 2002 handy. we know that the letter in 2006 addressed the issue, but we dont know if/how/how expressly illegal the act was before then.

 

[Armen Da Pats Fan]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

How so? How did that information give us an advantage? I've heard a lot of speculation but how was the outcome of any game affected? What I find is that people who say things like "it's a fact", don't have a single fact to support their position so if you do, you will be the first one. It does matter whether there was an advantage. Speculation doesn't count.

That's what I have been saying all along.

So what if they did tape?

How did that win us games?

You still have to get out on the field and execute.

And since nobody's fooling anybody in the NFL these days, it's all about what your players do ON THE FIELD.

If our players were better prepared because their coach taped the opposition and then they went out and executed well enough to win games, then they deserve it all and nothing is tainted.

In fact, shame on the other coaches for not taping and preparing their teams the same way!

 

[JR4]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

Does it really matter at this point?

The truth will be what you decide it is.
It will be what Specter decides it is for him
It will be what every Football fan decides for themselves.

The issue raises doubt in many people's mind. Maybe not yours or mine but
I would guess the vast majority of people who are not well informed or
are a Patriot's fan will have doubt.

If what other people besides Patriots fans believe is true doesn't matter to
you or me or anyone in the Patriots organization past or present.... then this is a non-issue.

But I suspect most here care what the perception of outsiders think about
the PATs is ....even if they say they don't.


There is NOTHING we can do about what other people believe. Nothing.
All the best reasoning in the world won't change what someone WANTS
to believe.
The Losers of the world WANT to believe PATs cheated their way to
Superbowl wins. And unfortunately the world, the NFL world especially,
is made up of mostly losers.

Yes I can make a case for the PATs every time someone calls them
cheaters .... but why do I have to do this? Why do any of us have to do this?

I am very disappointed in Belichick. He is a very smart man but he
really showed how dumb even a smart person can be.
Maybe he really did get a significant advantage from the tapes. There is
an argument for this such as follows. Belichick is really smart. He knew
people didn't like him and would love to bring him down if given a chance.
So why did he risk this taping thing? Maybe because it really did give him
a significant advantage he couldn't pass up. If very little advantage why
would a man who made his fame from weighing risks ... risk so much for so
little. That wouldn't make sense. Either it was a real dumb move or there
was a lot to gain from taping opponents. I think it was a dumb move.

Danny is right ... this is with us from now and though all eternity.
There is nothing we can do to change what people want to believe.
.... Right or Wrong.

 

[Seymour93]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

If what other people besides Patriots fans believe is true doesn't matter to
you or me or anyone in the Patriots organization past or present.... then this is a non-issue.

But I suspect most here care what the perception of outsiders think about
the PATs is ....even if they say they don't.


There is NOTHING we can do about what other people believe. Nothing.
All the best reasoning in the world won't change what someone WANTS
to believe.

Yes, there is something we can do. Spygate and all of the fake outrage that comes with it will completely go away as soon as the franchise slips back into mediocrity (which isn't happening as long as BB is HC). This is what happens when you support the team who's won the most playoff games in a decade and also has the highest winning percentage. The fact is that the fans of the other 31 teams would trade their situation for our's in a heartbeat.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

I'm a homer and I know I'm not welcome.

However I will state the premise of this thread is as stupid as it is absurd. I don't care what the media or fans from other teams say.

 

[danny88]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

I'm a homer and I know I'm not welcome.

However I will state the premise of this thread is as stupid as it is absurd. I don't care what the media or fans from other teams say.

Good for you. Now run back with all the other sheep , bahhhhhh.

 

[danny88]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

I'm a homer and I know I'm not welcome.

However I will state the premise of this thread is as stupid as it is absurd. I don't care what the media or fans from other teams say.

Good for you. Now run back with all the other sheep , bahhhhhh. Its funny how you take a negative opinion on our sports team personal. You almost act like this type of thread should not be alllowed because if people see it they will say something! Some serious insecurity issues there.

 

[makewayhomer]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

I don't care what the media or fans from other teams say.

some people do.

I've already said that, for me, legacy matters. I want everyone to think that this was the best dynasty of all time.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

Good for you. Now run back with all the other sheep , bahhhhhh. Its funny how you take a negative opinion on our sports team personal. You almost act like this type of thread should not be alllowed because if people see it they will say something! Some serious insecurity issues there.

So you can post what you want and those who disagree with you shouldn't post heir opinions?

If I felt certain threads should not be allowed, I'd delete them. Now who is it that has serious insecurity issues?

 

[mdhprime]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

Good for you. Now run back with all the other sheep , bahhhhhh. Its funny how you take a negative opinion on our sports team personal. You almost act like this type of thread should not be alllowed because if people see it they will say something! Some serious insecurity issues there.

Sheep huh? You should talk. Instead of taking a situation for what it is you jump on the media bandwagon and come up with a lot righteous blather about how tainted the Patriots are. Wake up! The bottom line is don't be led by a bunch of sensationalist journalists and sore looser fans who are looking for any consolation in regards to their teams loosing to the Patriots over the last few years. In addition, calling a group of people who support their team "homers" and then attempting to not include them in an open forum discussion is not only arrogant, but stupid. You should dump your season tickets so a real fan can take advantage of them and go support another team....preferrably one far away from NE.

 

[MVPKiller]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

Your conclusion is fine, but your supporting logic is flawed. If you gain a competitive advantage by obtaining information not available to other teams (closed practice), then a victory would be tainted. The talent level for most teams is very close. Coaching and gameplans can be a huge difference between winning and losing.

Taping signs did not give the Pats information that other teams couldn't get themselves, so they earned every victory.

It isn't flawed at all, I was referring exclusively to the Super Bowl games, not winning and losing in general. My point was all of the scouting and taping in the world will not make a difference if you cannot execute the plays on the field. The players still need to win the game, and unless they use in game tactics to cheat, then the victory, in my view, is not tainted.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

some people do.

I've already said that, for me, legacy matters. I want everyone to think that this was the best dynasty of all time.

Well if you go through life trying to control what other people think, you are going to be miserable. If you think the haters in the media and fans from other teams are not going to try find anything to bring the Patriots down, then you are not in touch with the real world.

 

[allworldrussfrancis]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

If beli and co where infact taping teams dating all the way back since Beli started to coach this team , our sb's are tainted. Now I know this is hard to accept. I know that a lot of people do it. But until another team is busted for the same thing , or some type of real proof comes out that this was a leauge wide issue , we are going to be looked at as cheats. Nothing will change that.

Frankly I would be a bit mad with Belichick for not keeping this whole thing under control.This is a big if of course. This whole thing could go away tommorow. But let's face the facts people , we will be called tainted cheats forever if Spectors allegations are proven true.


I would be ashamed. If this was the colts who did this you would all be screaming cheaters at every chance. This is a tough pill to swallow. I have been a season ticket holder for a long time. I love the pat's. Just calling it like it is. All the excuse makers and homer's will freak out over this post. But you all know you are scared as hell for these latest allegations to be proven true. The pats will never live this down.

I cannot believe that anyone who has seriously followed this was actually surprised they were taping since 2000. What - do you think they just decided to tape the Jets game? This was a standard practice and they thought they were doing it within the rules.

 

[JR4]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

Yes, there is something we can do. Spygate and all of the fake outrage that comes with it will completely go away as soon as the franchise slips back into mediocrity (which isn't happening as long as BB is HC). This is what happens when you support the team who's won the most playoff games in a decade and also has the highest winning percentage. The fact is that the fans of the other 31 teams would trade their situation for our's in a heartbeat.

What can you do to change what someone wants to believe? Some people
'WANT' to believe in UFOs and will go to great lengths to support their position
even it they are shown that95% of reported UFO's have been explained.
if someone WANTS to believe something there is really nothing you can do.

I really really doubt there are 31 teams would trade their situation with us.
Giants think they have started an untainted dynasty. Chargers and Colts
also think they have a shot at an untainted Dynasty. I doubt Cowboys
want our shoes.
In fact, if PATs recent SuperBowls are really perceived as tainted why
would any fan wish they had cheater's trophies? If I believed for a second
PATs had to cheat to win those games .... i wouldn't be a PATs fan.

 

[Metaphors]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

It isn't flawed at all, I was referring exclusively to the Super Bowl games, not winning and losing in general. My point was all of the scouting and taping in the world will not make a difference if you cannot execute the plays on the field. The players still need to win the game, and unless they use in game tactics to cheat, then the victory, in my view, is not tainted.

So you are saying that if team A had inside knowledge (practice tapes, playbook, gameplan, etc.) of what team B was planning to do during a game, and team B had no idea of what team A was going to do, that it wouldn't make a difference at all?

I would agree with you if team B was LSU and team A was a high school team from Alaska. The talent levels in the NFL (except for QB) are not dramatically different from team to team. Giving a coaching staff inside information is a HUGE advantage. It doesn't guarantee a win, but it changes the balance of competition on the field.

Before anyone flames me, I'm not saying the Pats had inside information. Just saying that you can't dismiss all questionable practices (secret taping of practice, stealing gameplans, etc.) as having negligible effects on game results. Obviously, taping openly visible sideline signals does not rise to this level.

 

[Metaphors]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

This was a standard practice and they thought they were doing it within the rules.

I might buy that until the beginning of the 2006 season. After that point, Belichick was openly challenging rules that he believed were targeted at him. He just didn't see the situation playing out like it did. Not saying you think that after 2005 Belichick still believed he was "within the rules", but that perspective is a bit naive.

 

[allworldrussfrancis]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

I might buy that until the beginning of the 2006 season. After that point, Belichick was openly challenging rules that he believed were targeted at him. He just didn't see the situation playing out like it did. Not saying you think that after 2005 Belichick still believed he was "within the rules", but that perspective is a bit naive.

I agree with most of this statement. I don't think the 2006 memo was necessarily targeted at him, however, but the practice itself.

 

[makewayhomer]

Re: Lets face the fact's (homers not welcome)

Well if you go through life trying to control what other people think, you are going to be miserable. If you think the haters in the media and fans from other teams are not going to try find anything to bring the Patriots down, then you are not in touch with the real world.

I'm not trying to control them - I would just prefer that this incident had never happened