Trade Moss

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes
I never said it was, nor do I think trading Moss will solve all our problems, but I do think it's obvious to anyone not drink TB12 Kool-Aid that Brady is part of the problem.

Rhody's points were all to support trading Moss because he is the cause of any perceived offensive problem. So either follow the damn conversation or don't but in.

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But not having Moss on the team will make Brady better , cant you follow the logic here? Im sorry to say that I can :bricks::bricks:

cmasspatsfan said:

But not having Moss on the team will make Brady better , cant you follow the logic here? Im sorry to say that I can :bricks::bricks:

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Can you follow this logic:

Option 1: 9 pass targets resulting in: 2 completions = 1 TD, 7 incompletions = 2 INTS
Option 2: 9 additional pass targets to Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Tate, et al. Pass completion rate to this group this season:

Wes Welker -- 18 targets/14 catches
Kevin Faulk -- 10 targets/6 catches
Aaron Hernandez -- 8 targets/7 catches
Brandon Tate -- 6 targets/5 catches
Rob Gronkowski -- 3 targets/2 catches

What puts you in a better position to win? Not to mention a trade can bring a player that can help. CHOOSE COACH.

Can you follow this logic:

Option 1: 9 pass targets resulting in: 2 completions = 1 TD, 7 incompletions = 2 INTS
Option 2: 9 additional pass targets to Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Tate, et al. Pass completion rate to this group this season:

Wes Welker -- 18 targets/14 catches
Kevin Faulk -- 10 targets/6 catches
Aaron Hernandez -- 8 targets/7 catches
Brandon Tate -- 6 targets/5 catches
Rob Gronkowski -- 3 targets/2 catches

What puts you in a better position to win? Not to mention a trade can bring a player that can help. CHOOSE COACH.

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Lighten up iron man its just a game we're talking about

Iron Helmet said:

Can you follow this logic:

Option 1: 9 pass targets resulting in: 2 completions = 1 TD, 7 incompletions = 2 INTS
Option 2: 9 additional pass targets to Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Tate, et al. Pass completion rate to this group this season:

Wes Welker -- 18 targets/14 catches
Kevin Faulk -- 10 targets/6 catches
Aaron Hernandez -- 8 targets/7 catches
Brandon Tate -- 6 targets/5 catches
Rob Gronkowski -- 3 targets/2 catches

What puts you in a better position to win? CHOOSE COACH.

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Then you are relying on Welker and 3 rookies to finish this season off...Faulk is gone and yes Tate is a bonafide as close as can be to a rookie - rookies can hit stumbling blocks and you can't be sure of them to continue to play well like they are now

I would think if anything Moss is a good decoy and a veteran presence,the problem is not really Moss it's Brady looking at him too much.

I think some people need a reminder why TB looks to Moss often and regularly-

Randy Moss - Untouchable

One thing I did notice on the touchback interception....why didn't he jump?

Iron Helmet said:

Can you follow this logic:

Option 1: 9 pass targets resulting in: 2 completions = 1 TD, 7 incompletions = 2 INTS
Option 2: 9 additional pass targets to Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Tate, et al. Pass completion rate to this group this season:

Wes Welker -- 18 targets/14 catches
Kevin Faulk -- 10 targets/6 catches
Aaron Hernandez -- 8 targets/7 catches
Brandon Tate -- 6 targets/5 catches
Rob Gronkowski -- 3 targets/2 catches

What puts you in a better position to win? Not to mention a trade can bring a player that can help. CHOOSE COACH.

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So basically when others are open they get the ball and that means Brady sucks because he throws to Moss sometimes when no one is open or the play is designed to go to Moss to stretch the D?

Your "belief" that Moss is negatively impacting the offense is completely shot down when you look at the FACT that Brady completed passes at a WORSE rate without Moss.

Of course the entire notion that Moss HURTS an offense is ridiculous to begin with and I really shouldn't need to explain it.

emoney_33 said:

So basically when others are open they get the ball and that means Brady sucks because he throws to Moss sometimes when no one is open or the play is designed to go to Moss to stretch the D?

Your "belief" that Moss is negatively impacting the offense is completely shot down when you look at the FACT that Brady completed passes at a WORSE rate without Moss.

Of course the entire notion that Moss HURTS an offense is ridiculous to begin with and I really shouldn't need to explain it.

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Point 1: My feeling is Brady not ideally suited to be a long ball QB to take advantage of Moss. Even Troy Brown on EEI this afternoon mentioned the same thing. He lacks accuracy on the long ball.
Point 2: Moss is fading. See this from his prime. Compare to what you are seeing NOW.
Combine Point 1 and 2, along with Moss wanting an extension plus the market for him (Vikings), and a trade makes sense to me. Use the goods to get V Jack,trade Mankins for Choice and lets roll.

AndyJohnson said:

QBs are taught to throw the ball to outside receivers in single man to man coverage with no one over the top.
Offenses work very hard to get that.
We have arguably the best deep threat the league has seen in years, and you find it bizarre that the relationship between him and the QB is that the QB throws to him when he is in single coverage????????

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Really?? And how many of Moss' TWO OUT OF TEN receptions against the Jets were single coverage?? How many SB's are won for teams because of their deep threats? Who were the deep threats when Brady and Delhomme were trading TD's in that SB?? How many SB's has Randy King of the Deep Threat Moss won?? How many championships has Randy alligator arms who will never out physical ANYONE for the ball Moss ever won ANYWHERE in his lifetime??
Ball control and clock management wins quarters, halfs, games and championships for NFL offenses. Ball control (means zero TO's) and clock management prevents two picks in the 2nd half against the Jets.
What has changed is Tom Brady now thinks he's John Elway.
He NOT!
Do you guys ever get tired of defending selfish and subpar offensive output?
The presence of Mr. Deep Threat has changed our HOF QB for the worse.
Open your eyes!!
Randy goes on IR tomorow we're fine once the QB gets over his broken heart.
Wes goes on IR tomorrow we have a huge problem
Yeah yeah I know......without Moss around Wes Welker will never get his catches. Yeah, just like Troy Brown and Deoin Branch never got theirs.
Such short memories.....

Iron Helmet said:

Point 1: My feeling is Brady not ideally suited to be a long ball QB to take advantage of Moss. Even Troy Brown on EEI this afternoon mentioned the same thing. He lacks accuracy on the long ball.

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2007 laughs at that notion. He struggled with it last year but he was coming off injury.

Point 2: Moss is fading. See this from his prime. Compare to what you are seeing NOW.

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What I'm seeing now is a guy who led the league in TDs and had the 5th most yards in 2009. Doing this while injured for most of the year on a team with a QB coming off ACL injury, and no other deep threat to help take any attention off him.

What I'm seeing in 2010 is a guy who can still blow by defenders and who's only 'problem' has been uncharacterstically "unsure" hands. If age was getting to him, his hands would not be the first to go. His legs look just fine.

Combine Point 1 and 2, along with Moss wanting an extension plus the market for him (Vikings), and a trade makes sense to me. Use the goods to get V Jack,trade Mankins for Choice and lets roll.

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It's MORONIC to even entertain the idea to trade Moss unless you want to tank the season.

Iron Helmet said:

Point 1: My feeling is Brady not ideally suited to be a long ball QB to take advantage of Moss. Even Troy Brown on EEI this afternoon mentioned the same thing. He lacks accuracy on the long ball.
Point 2: Moss is fading. See this from his prime. Compare to what you are seeing NOW.
Combine Point 1 and 2, along with Moss wanting an extension plus the market for him (Vikings), and a trade makes sense to me. Use the goods to get V Jack,trade Mankins for Choice and lets roll.

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Point 1: If you go up three posts you will see Brady does the long ball just fine.

Point 2: See point 1.

This whole Vincent Jackson trade stuff is absurd. The game suspensions, the holding out, the Chargers likely high trade demands, VJ wanting big money....etc. BB and co. are not tossing SD a 1st, nor are they going to throw big money at a suspended holdout.

What do you want Minny to give us for Moss? a 5th rounder? Does anyone around here SERIOUSLY want a 5th round draft pick for Randy Moss?

So many practice squad threads...so few practice squad forums.

emoney_33 said:

What I'm seeing now is a guy who led the league in TDs and had the 5th most yards in 2009. Doing this while injured for most of the year on a team with a QB coming off ACL injury, and no other deep threat to help take any attention off him.

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They're not mutually exclusive points. I definitely believe that Brady is still an elite NFL WR. He's one of the best, without a doubt. He's not the player that he was in his prime, though. And that's fine: he's closing in on his mid-30s, he'd be a complete aberration if he was still the athlete that he was at 25. Luckily, he was so good then that, even factoring in some decline, he's still elite. As for trading him... yeah, that's a terrible idea. If they were going to trade him, they would have done that before the season. Specifically, they would have found a way to replace him first, since Welker/Edelman/Tate/Price doesn't really scare anyone.

RhodyPatriot said:

Yeah yeah I know......without Moss around Wes Welker will never get his catches. Yeah, just like Troy Brown and Deoin Branch never got theirs.
Such short memories.....

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Brown and Branch got "theirs" because the Pats had a killer in Corey Dillon, a hell of an OL that included the run springing block master Daniel Graham, and a smash mouth defense.

Such selective memories....

RhodyPatriot said:

Really?? And how many of Moss' TWO OUT OF TEN receptions against the Jets were single coverage?? How many SB's are won for teams because of their deep threats? Who were the deep threats when Brady and Delhomme were trading TD's in that SB?? How many SB's has Randy King of the Deep Threat Moss won?? How many championships has Randy alligator arms who will never out physical ANYONE for the ball Moss ever won ANYWHERE in his lifetime??
Ball control and clock management wins quarters, halfs, games and championships for NFL offenses. Ball control (means zero TO's) and clock management prevents two picks in the 2nd half against the Jets.
What has changed is Tom Brady now thinks he's John Elway.
He NOT!
Do you guys ever get tired of defending selfish and subpar offensive output?
The presence of Mr. Deep Threat has changed our HOF QB for the worse.
Open your eyes!!
Randy goes on IR tomorow we're fine once the QB gets over his broken heart.
Wes goes on IR tomorrow we have a huge problem
Yeah yeah I know......without Moss around Wes Welker will never get his catches. Yeah, just like Troy Brown and Deoin Branch never got theirs.
Such short memories.....

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Wes Welker has how many Superbowl wins? You can't win with a receiver like him! He doesn't score enough TDs, all he does is keep the chains moving. You need TDs to win in this league.

Ever get tired of subpar offensive output? You mean Brady throwing the highest and third highest TD %, the two lowest INT %, and the two highest completion percentage of his career in 2007 and 2009?

Of course, you won't get the offensive jaugernaut like against Buffalo in 03' when Brady threw 4 INTs and 0 TDs and had a 50% completion percentage. Or in 04' against Miami when he completed a great 35% of his passes. Or how about in 05' against KC when he had 1 TD and 4 INTs in a game, must have been because of his fixation with Randy Moss, right? 06' against Indy when he had 0 TDs with 4 INTs. It must be Randy Moss. :bricks:

emoney_33 said:

Rhody's points were all to support trading Moss because he is the cause of any perceived offensive problem. So either follow the damn conversation or don't but in.

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I'll say what I damn well please, thank you very much.

Whether his points were in support of trading Moss are immaterial, those points are valid, Brady is no longer clutch, in fact he's likely to melt down late in the game.

Oh, I noticed you still hadn't bothered to answer any of his points regarding Brady.

BradyFTW! said:

They're not mutually exclusive points. I definitely believe that Brady is still an elite NFL WR. He's one of the best, without a doubt. He's not the player that he was in his prime, though. And that's fine: he's closing in on his mid-30s, he'd be a complete aberration if he was still the athlete that he was at 25. Luckily, he was so good then that, even factoring in some decline, he's still elite. As for trading him... yeah, that's a terrible idea. If they were going to trade him, they would have done that before the season. Specifically, they would have found a way to replace him first, since Welker/Edelman/Tate/Price doesn't really scare anyone.

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I agree. My comment was in the context of the poster who is claiming that Moss is a detriment to the team and should be traded. Using "Moss is fading" as a point. Sure he's "fading" in the sense that he's not as untouchable as he was in his prime, but I don't think that's what the poster was trying to say.

I forgot to mention that Larry Fitzgerald has 10 catches on 27 targets this season, should the Cardinals trade him? :bricks:

Last I heard of Asante Samuel he's shutting them receivers down in philly, seymour is killing runningbacks and sacking them qbs in oakland, Mike Vrabel is (Really serious on this one) making that impact on that Chiefs D, Deon Branch is getting them Super bowl MVPs in Seattle....

Seriously, Getting rid of Randy Moss would be FOOLISH compared to anybody else I stated above. He's arguably the best WR in the league, yes Brady forced it a little, but at the same time he has to send the message that he wants Moss involved in the game. Next game he will likely spread out a little more, Hernandez and Gronk has amazed use the pas two weeks.

you all have to admit the play calling IS TERRIBLE. Calling running plays when you know they DON'T WORK? in the second half most if not all the runs were for losses and made it unnecessarily hard for the Passing game to work. 3rd and 11? I don't blame Brady for throwing those 2 picks, nobody was open and it was 3rd down. You must throw to your play makers, just happens to be 2 unsuccessful plays. the first one wasn't even that bad considering they'd have to punt if they hadn't connected anyway. our Punter isn't that good anyway. The second pick was not a great throw, but it was 3rd down so he had to do something. Overall the whole team stunk, nobody really did better than anyone, maybe Wilfork was the most efficient but thats about it.

CheeseMonkeys said:

When's the last time Jerry Rice or Micheal Irvin won a ring?????

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Please don't ever put those two names in the same sentence.

And neither have won anything in more than 15 years.

I would've thought you would've known that.

***

Over the last 15 years, there've been exactly ZERO teams that featured a (near) Jerry Rice Level Prima Donna Alpha WideOut...who've won ANYTHING.

There's nothing wrong with having excellent receivers who can make plays: Wes Welker, Marquis de Colston, Shooter Harrison, Torry Holt, and Isaac the Bruce, for instance.

Nothing wrong with passing the Ball.

My contention is that, since the advent of the Salary Cap ~ 15 years ago ~ Prima Donna Alpha Level WideOuts are not worth their keep.

It's no coincidence that they haven't won squat:

If you pay them, that means that you don't pay an handfull of vital Brick + Mortar guys that help you Move the Chains, Stop Drives, and Make Plays.

emoney_33 said:

Who played in the superbowl last year?

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MoLewisrocks said:

I really don't think you want to go there.

Both of those teams are relying on later round and UDFA home grown and developed talent. And the one who relied on their well compensated #1 who is jonesing for a better deal got disappointed over an apparent miscommunication...

Did you watch MNF? The one with the UDFA #1 prevailed because he stepped up huge and made a tough catch with a defender draped all over him because in a hard fought defensive game, because that was what it was going to take to prevail in the final analysis when a gun fight broke out down the stretch...kinda like what happened to us back in 2001 and 2003 and even 2004 when our awesome defense staggered down the stretch and kept equally explosive teams in it to the end...

The only hero from any of those finishes who is going to the HOF without a ticket is the QB (and maybe the kicker).

None of the receivers will because none of them were statistical, highlight reel superstars, just talented guys who busted their butts and stepped up big when opportunity knocked and the situation demanded it.

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Absolutely beautifull post, Brother Mo.

Prima Donnas get you in the PlayOffs.

Scrappers...win the PlayOffs.

eh look like we gotta cut all our receivers and sign all of those rookie undrafted receivers who work hard. that'll get us in the superbowl