Does anyone think Tom is underrated when compared to Peyton Manning?

[I Am DUNGY]

When comparing QB's, SB's won is a big benchmark but not THE benchmark. When comparing individual passers, stats are the body of the work

Just to prove my point

 

[Kontradiction]

Key kid, Nice try to spin my words, but what I actually said was "When comparing individual passers, Superbowls won is a big benchmark, but not THE benchmark"

Need to come a little harder than that, or improve your reading comprehension skills if you can't tell the difference

Nice try at sweeping that under a rug. Whether you said individual passers or not, you flat out made the point that the benchmark for anyone's success in this league is stats and not necessarily Super Bowl wins. Then I went stats with you. I pointed out what our '07 offense did once Brady got the receivers (since you were so adament that stats were important) and you then turned around and said that it doesn't matter because we didn't win the Super Bowl. Keep in mind this was AFTER you said that Super Bowls were important, but weren't the end all when it came to measuring someone's greatness. So yeah, you can keep spinning this around and say QUARTERBACK QUARTERBACK QUARTERBACK!!! but the fact of the matter is that you look at stats as being the most important benchmark for someone's legacy or success. Now do us all a favor and backtrack all the way back to ColtFreaks and tell them Kontradiction says hi and that he misses them.

P.S. - Should probably change that nickname to One and Dungy.

 

[I Am DUNGY]

Nice try at sweeping that under a rug. Whether you said individual passers or not, you flat out made the point that the benchmark for anyone's success in this league is stats and not necessarily Super Bowl wins. Then I went stats with you. I pointed out what our '07 offense did once Brady got the receivers (since you were so adament that stats were important) and you then turned around and said that it doesn't matter because we didn't win the Super Bowl. Keep in mind this was AFTER you said that Super Bowls were important, but weren't the end all when it came to measuring someone's greatness. So yeah, you can keep spinning this around and say QUARTERBACK QUARTERBACK QUARTERBACK!!! but the fact of the matter is that you look at stats as being the most important benchmark for someone's legacy or success. Now do us all a favor and backtrack all the way back to ColtFreaks and tell them Kontradiction says hi and that he misses them.

P.S. - Should probably change that nickname to One and Dungy.

Don't make it so easy on me, you can try to take whatever context from what you THOUGHT I meant, but when you address me try to only use what was said and not with your twist to fit your meanings

The only thing that I said in any of my previous posts, is that when comparing individual stats, Superbowls is not the biggest weighing factor, simply because SB's are won by teams as a whole and many great players are limited by the teams that surround them

When comparing teams against one another, SB's are the biggest factor IMO, no more or less thats what I said. I believe Peyton has been part of 3 of the 20 most productive offenses in NFL history, but none of them I would say were the best or even top 5 because they failed to win the SB, same thing goes for your Pats of last year

The Greatest Offensives of all time were able to produce when it mattered in the SB, and were not denied a ring.

I never said last years Pats team didn't matter either despite what you said, or even that they weren't one of the most productive if not arguably the most productive of all time, all I said is Brady must produce more than just ONE Peyton-like season (You know, more than 4,000 yards, 30+ TD's) As Peyton has MULTIPLE of these and Brady just had his first season throwin more than 30 TD passes.

But any time you'd like to discuss and not twist around words, feel free to address me

 

[Kontradiction]

Don't make it so easy on me, you can try to take whatever context from what you THOUGHT I meant, but when you address me try to only use what was said and not with your twist to fit your meanings

The only thing that I said in any of my previous posts, is that when comparing individual stats, Superbowls is not the biggest weighing factor, simply because SB's are won by teams as a whole and many great players are limited by the teams that surround them

When comparing teams against one another, SB's are the biggest factor IMO, no more or less thats what I said. I believe Peyton has been part of 3 of the 20 most productive offenses in NFL history, but none of them I would say were the best or even top 5 because they failed to win the SB, same thing goes for your Pats of last year

The Greatest Offensives of all time were able to produce when it mattered in the SB, and were not denied a ring.

I never said last years Pats team didn't matter either despite what you said, all I said is Brady must produce more than just ONE Peyton-like season (You know, more than 4,000 yards, 30+ TD's) As Peyton has MULTIPLE of these and Brady just had his first season throwin more than 30 TD passes.

But any time you'd like to discuss and not twist around words, feel free to address me

Then please explain to me, in all your wisdom, how comparing an offense is any different than comparing a quarterback. You know... considering the quarterback runs the offense.

And we went through this already: Brady was always in a run first, pass second offense up until last year. Manning was not hence his stats are a little more padded.

Oh and one more thing: our offense did it's job in winning the Super Bowl for us. It was our defense that allowed Eli "Mongoloid" Manning and the Gints an 80+ yard drive in the final minutes for a game-winning touchdown. If not for that drive, our offense sealed 19-0 for us and delivered it to our defense with a pretty ribbon.

 

[Brady'sButtBoy]

I'll be brief, NO.

 

[jmt57]

Just to interject a short intermission on the appropriate carpet-bombing of I Am DUNGY, just wanted to relate this very detailed column that takes in to account post-season performances, head-to-head contests, defense, surrounding talent, and statistics. Even though this is a bit dated (after the 2004 season), that actually tilts the scales even further in Brady's favor, as it did not take in to account last season's numbers.

The bottom line for Manning fans is this: their belief that Manning is superior because he routinely puts up greater stats than Brady is simply not true (though it was true in 2004). The truth is that those who believe Manning is a better QB are basing their argument on a tiny margin of better regular-season statistics and utterly ignoring Brady’s clear and overwhelming postseason superiority. Quite frankly, anyone who states that Manning is a better QB is making a argument that is literally illogical and indefensible because they're building their defense upon a belief ("Manning posts much greater statistics") that is simply not true.

Of course, one can't help but wonder: What would Brady's stat line look like if the Patriots invested in offense the way Indy has? Of course, there's no need for New England to do so. Brady's proven that he can put up historic passing numbers, and win championships in heroic fashion, surrounded by a mediocre running game and workmanlike offensive crew. Manning has proven he can put up historic regular-season passing numbers surrounded by an all-star cast. He's yet to prove he can consistently put up historic passing numbers in the postseason. In fact, quite the opposite, he’s played his very worst ball when his team has needed him most.

The bottom line is this: No quarterback in modern football history has crafted a career that includes a more impressive combination of stunning postseason performances, team accomplishments and eye-popping stats than Brady. Certainly not Peyton Manning.

Tom Brady, in other words, is the better quarterback. Case closed.

 

[kolbitr]

I will be completely honest here, partly for the sake of our Coltfan guests: I think Manning is a terrific QB, one of the all-time greats. I have seen him do some pretty incredible things on the field, some of which I do not think Tom would have done, or at least done as well.

The converse is also true. They really are very different quarterbacks. I would also say that Manning is clearly one of the most cerebral QBs to have ever graced the gridiron (to be goofily poetic for a moment), and that sometimes that gets him into trouble. Tom is, I think, a more natural leader of men, but, if true, that is partly because he is not as much "in his own head" as Manning...

 

[ScottieC]

Except one problem with your argument, Marino has ZERO superbowls. Winning even one can make all the defense in the world, Peyton is no longer in Marino company

Your defense of Manning using the TD and yards statistics is flawed, it called the Marino Rule.

It's simple math, bro: 1 does not equal Three or perhaps look at it this way, Three is always more than One. See how that works?

 

[ScottieC]

AAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You just completely contradicted yourself without even realizing it. You just said Peyton is better than Tom because his stats are better despite Tom winning more Super Bowls. Than you turn around and say that our 2007 offense is not the greatest of all time because, despite having the best stats out of any offense, we couldn't win the Super Bowl.

Hey kid, don't worry about it though. They don't call me Kontradiction for nothing. :disagreement:

Right, you beat me to it Kontra. Well stated.

 

[I Am DUNGY]

Just to interject a short intermission on the appropriate carpet-bombing of I Am DUNGY, just wanted to relate this very detailed column that takes in to account post-season performances, head-to-head contests, defense, surrounding talent, and statistics. Even though this is a bit dated (after the 2004 season), that actually tilts the scales even further in Brady's favor, as it did not take in to account last season's numbers.

So let me get this straight, you quote an article after the 2004 season (with the media freshly gushing of the Pats SB victory) pre 2005 Mannings record Breaking Year, and the 06 SB title, and before 3 straight no-ring years for the patriots, to try to show Brady is a better QB

Not completely throwing out a argument but it doesn't make too much sense to quote a article before Brady and Co were outed 3 straight times in the playoffs and since Manning brought home the ring and SB MVP, that just added the ring with Mannings superior stats

 

[I Am DUNGY]

Your defense of Manning using the TD and yards statistics is flawed, it called the Marino Rule.

It's simple math, bro: 1 does not equal Three or perhaps look at it this way, Three is always more than One. See how that works?

Well then we all know for sure Terry Bradshaw was the superior QB to Brady......

 

[ScottieC]

Don't make it so easy on me, you can try to take whatever context from what you THOUGHT I meant, but when you address me try to only use what was said and not with your twist to fit your meanings

The only thing that I said in any of my previous posts, is that when comparing individual stats, Superbowls is not the biggest weighing factor, simply because SB's are won by teams as a whole and many great players are limited by the teams that surround them

When comparing teams against one another, SB's are the biggest factor IMO, no more or less thats what I said. I believe Peyton has been part of 3 of the 20 most productive offenses in NFL history, but none of them I would say were the best or even top 5 because they failed to win the SB, same thing goes for your Pats of last year

The Greatest Offensives of all time were able to produce when it mattered in the SB, and were not denied a ring.

I never said last years Pats team didn't matter either despite what you said, or even that they weren't one of the most productive if not arguably the most productive of all time, all I said is Brady must produce more than just ONE Peyton-like season (You know, more than 4,000 yards, 30+ TD's) As Peyton has MULTIPLE of these and Brady just had his first season throwin more than 30 TD passes.

But any time you'd like to discuss and not twist around words, feel free to address me

Actually, I kinda like this "Super Bowls are not THE benchmark", because under that thought process there is NO denying that the 2007 Patriots were the Greatest Team in the history of the NFL. Right on.

I kinda like this I am Dungy Kid.

 

[ScottieC]

Well then we all know for sure Terry Bradshaw was the superior QB to Brady......

Now THAT is an arguable point and throw in Montana as well. Just Keep one and done Manning in the rear-view for time being.

 

[I Am DUNGY]

Actually, I kinda like this "Super Bowls are not THE benchmark", because under that thought process there is NO denying that the 2007 Patriots were the Greatest Team in the history of the NFL. Right on.

I kinda like this I am Dungy Kid.

Well they weren't even the best 18-1 team of all time let alone the best ever. The other 2 have rings

 

[ScottieC]

Well they weren't even the best 18-1 team of all time let alone the best ever. The other 2 have rings

Dude, your betraying your own arguement now!! Come on! It's about Stats and like you said Not just Superbowls????

What 18-1 team had better stats???? Find one. You won't.

 

[ScottieC]

Dude, your betraying your own arguement now!! Come on! It's about Stats and like you said Not just Superbowls????

What 18-1 team had better stats???? Find one. You won't.

I'm guessing you are working Wikipedia like a champ right now, keep chugging along. While I'm waiting, here are a few Brady tid bits. Note that ones that about WINNIG and not personal stats.

3 Super Bowl Championships
2 Super Bowl MVP's
Owns NFL Single Season TD record
MVP of the League 2007
4 Pro Bowls
Longest Win streak in NFL History
2nd Longest win streak in NFL Hisory
Longest Regular Season win streak in NFL History
Quickest to 100 wins in NFL history
Only QB to win 18 games in a row in a single season
Perfect regular season 2007
2x All Pro Selection
Owns NFL record for most consectutive Post Season wins (10)
Highest Completion % in a game - NFL History
Most Completions in a Super Bowl
Most Completions in Super Bowls Career

By the way. I'm a total Patriots Homer. I make no excuses for that.

 

[I Am DUNGY]

I'm guessing you are working Wikipedia like a champ right now, keep chugging along. While I'm waiting, here are a few Brady tid bits. Note that ones that about WINNIG and not personal stats.

3 Super Bowl Championships
2 Super Bowl MVP's
Owns NFL Single Season TD record
MVP of the League 2007
4 Pro Bowls
Longest Win streak in NFL History
2nd Longest win streak in NFL Hisory
Longest Regular Season win streak in NFL History
Quickest to 100 wins in NFL history
Only QB to win 18 games in a row in a single season
Perfect regular season 2007
2x All Pro Selection
Owns NFL record for most consectutive Post Season wins (10)
Highest Completion % in a game - NFL History
Most Completions in a Super Bowl
Most Completions in Super Bowls Career

By the way. I'm a total Patriots Homer. I make no excuses for that.

I know some of you Pats fans have a hard time understanding the individual vs. Team concept of winning in SB's, and since several of those records you posted were team records that every member of the Pats that year hold as well let me show you some more info

Manning
* Most seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards (1999–2004, 2006–2007): 8[151]
* Most consecutive seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards (1999–2004): 6[4]
* Most consecutive seasons with at least 25 touchdown passes (1998–2007; current): 10[151]
* Most games with a perfect passer rating (career): 4 (includes 1 playoff game)[97]
* Most consecutive games started to open a career by a quarterback (current): 160[152]
* Highest passer rating (season, 2004): 121.1[153]
* Most consecutive games with at least 2 touchdown passes: 13 (games 1–13, 2004)[154]
* Most consecutive games with at least 4 touchdown passes: 5 (games 7–11, 2004)[153]
* Most games with at least 4 touchdown passes (season, 2004): 6 (tied with 1984 Marino)[153]

Position on passing statistics leaderboards

Manning is currently on pace to break the career records in every major statistical category for a quarterback, including most career passing touchdowns, most career completions, and most career passing yards.[162] Manning is currently ranked in the top ten in all of these categories:

* Touchdown Passes: 306 (4th)[163]
* Passes Completed: 3,468 (8th)[164]
* Passing Yards: 41,626 (9th)[165]
* Passer Rating: 94.7 (2nd)[166]
* Passing Yards per Game: 260.2 (1st)[167]
* Completion Percentage: 64.2% (4th)[168]

 

[NJPatsfan26]

I know some of you Pats fans have a hard time understanding the individual vs. Team concept of winning in SB's, and since several of those records you posted were team records that every member of the Pats that year hold as well let me show you some more info

Manning
* Most seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards (1999–2004, 2006–2007): 8[151]
* Most consecutive seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards (1999–2004): 6[4]
* Most consecutive seasons with at least 25 touchdown passes (1998–2007; current): 10[151]
* Most games with a perfect passer rating (career): 4 (includes 1 playoff game)[97]
* Most consecutive games started to open a career by a quarterback (current): 160[152]
* Highest passer rating (season, 2004): 121.1[153]
* Most consecutive games with at least 2 touchdown passes: 13 (games 1–13, 2004)[154]
* Most consecutive games with at least 4 touchdown passes: 5 (games 7–11, 2004)[153]
* Most games with at least 4 touchdown passes (season, 2004): 6 (tied with 1984 Marino)[153]

Position on passing statistics leaderboards

Manning is currently on pace to break the career records in every major statistical category for a quarterback, including most career passing touchdowns, most career completions, and most career passing yards.[162] Manning is currently ranked in the top ten in all of these categories:

* Touchdown Passes: 306 (4th)[163]
* Passes Completed: 3,468 (8th)[164]
* Passing Yards: 41,626 (9th)[165]
* Passer Rating: 94.7 (2nd)[166]
* Passing Yards per Game: 260.2 (1st)[167]
* Completion Percentage: 64.2% (4th)[168]

Please post this information on your own teams discussion boards. Thank you.

 

[I Am DUNGY]

Please post this information on your own teams discussion boards. Thank you.

I'm sorry, but is this or is this not a thread relating to Peyton Manning?

 

[NJPatsfan26]

I'm sorry, but is this or is this not a thread relating to Peyton Manning?

You are correct sir but your preaching to the wrong choir here. I can understand your post about the ability of your Manning...but IMO, it dosent matter between the two. Its Any Given Sunday and Any Given Season.