Does anyone think Tom is underrated when compared to Peyton Manning?

[rabthepat]

Seriously, Rab, I've been getting complaint PM's from several posters here the past couple of days about you and, while I'm telling them there's nothing infractionable about your posts since the SB, lemme give you some friendly advice:

Deal with your pain, son. Seek a professional. You're a good poster with a nice history track record here, but since the "great calamity" in February, your posts look like a classic documentary on ordinary people who go round the bend.

No need to play the one note over and over and over and over. We get it, Rab, message received. It WAS a terrible disappointment, but most of us have gone on with our lives and families. For the sake of your health, take a breath and enjoy the fine summer weather. It's all good.

Thank for the advice...I have been a die hard fan for 30 years and like most old school Pats fans have dealt with a lot of pain...the team's recent under achievement brings back memories of some unpleasant times...back then I still drank so I could cry in my beer...I guess now I tend to do it at the key board...If I offended anyone then my apologies to you...

 

[shmessy]

Thank for the advice...I have been a die hard fan for 30 years and like most old school Pats fans have dealt with a lot of pain...the team's recent under achievement brings back memories of some unpleasant times...back then I still drank so I could cry in my beer...I guess now I tend to do it at the key board...If I offended anyone then my apologies to you...

No offense, Rab. The SB loss certainly gave me alot of pain too (and I still can't fully forgive our All-Pro laden OL for that game either).

Your feelings from the end of last season are what we all feel really.

Hang in there. Training camp starts in only a few weeks. It's all good.

 

[PatsFan24]

i would have said yes before 2007, now i would say no

 

[JoeShmoe]

The thread is not about Peyton Manning. The question asks 'is Brady underrated when compared to Manning'? In my opinion - and yes, I'm a Pats fan - he is underrated compared to Manning. I believe that over the course of their careers, Manning has had a better offensive line, better running backs, better receivers, and a more pass oriented offense. On top of that Brady is somehow still discounted by some as being a 'system quarteback' that benefits from a better defense - a myth that should be discounted by Sanders and friends at this point.

Both are very excellent quarterbacks, top ten of all time, and both should end up in the NFL Hall of Fame on the first ballot with no questions asked. However, in my opinion, when comparing the two - and how the media and fans in general look at them - I do believe that Brady is not given as much credit as he deserves in comparison to Manning.

I speak to a lot of neutral fans on this and honstely everyone thinks their about as good as each other. In terms of pure ability Id take Manning, in terms of composure, team management, 2 min drill etc Id take Tom. Theres nothing in it and this argument gets played out on a million threads around the sites each year and no-one ever agrees. You can pad stats out either way, you can make decent claims either way. If Harrison catches that easy ball last year in the PO's where Manning had ridiculous stats going then they win and who knows where he goes ...

Were lucky as fans to be watching 2 too 5 QB's go at it week in, week out. Put it this way if either of them goes down both teams are f***ed

 

[ScottieC]

Tom might be better than Peyton but he is working his way back towards Peyton's level. Tom's performance in his last game of each playoff/SB over the past three years has made him more like Peyton Manning than Joe Montana.

2005 - Losses playoff to Denver with ill advised pass to Troy Brown in the end zone who is being covered at the time by the best corner in the game Champ Bailey. Game breaking mistake by Tom.

2006 - AFCG vs Indy has ball at the end of game but has no magic up his sleeve.

2007 - SB 42 leads team to score season low 14 points. No magic at end of game to win SB 42.


Joe Montana's is the KING of NFL playoffs. Tom no longer compares. Sorry...

"Tom no longer compares" ???

I obviously need some time away from this board. I'm done for a while. This kinda talk from a guy that's been around for while is nuts. Go ahead Colts fans, you can talk about Peyton with rabthepat, he's with ya.

 

[stevedogc]

Tom might be better than Peyton but he is working his way back towards Peyton's level. Tom's performance in his last game of each playoff/SB over the past three years has made him more like Peyton Manning than Joe Montana.

2005 - Losses playoff to Denver with ill advised pass to Troy Brown in the end zone who is being covered at the time by the best corner in the game Champ Bailey. Game breaking mistake by Tom.

2006 - AFCG vs Indy has ball at the end of game but has no magic up his sleeve.

2007 - SB 42 leads team to score season low 14 points. No magic at end of game to win SB 42.


Joe Montana's is the KING of NFL playoffs. Tom no longer compares. Sorry...

There was a time in Montana career where he went through a really bad stretch of playoff games. For three years straight (85,86 & 87) the 49ers lost in their opening round game with Montana playing particularly poorly. 1985 - 26 of 47 for 296 0 td 1 int. 1986 - 8 of 15 for 98 0 td 2 int. 1987 - 12 of 26 for 109 0 td 1 int.

Now dont get me wrong, I feel Montana is the greatest QB of all time, and I am not willing to place either Brady and Manning with the all time greats until their careers are over, or at lest out of their primes. But it just goes to show you that even the great ones, or the best ever can come down to earth at times.

 

[howebner]

Does it really matter? Three super bowls 2 super bowl mvps . ! league mvp A super model girlfriend. Handsome to boot . Do you think Tom cares who underrates him..

 

[Patjew]

Thank for the advice...I have been a die hard fan for 30 years and like most old school Pats fans have dealt with a lot of pain...the team's recent under achievement brings back memories of some unpleasant times...back then I still drank so I could cry in my beer...I guess now I tend to do it at the key board...If I offended anyone then my apologies to you...

I find your posts extrememly depressing and difficult to read. I come to this place for fun, and each post of yours sucks the life out of it. I really hope you can tone it down, because it's ruining this place for me.

 

[I Am DUNGY]

There was a time in Montana career where he went through a really bad stretch of playoff games. For three years straight (85,86 & 87) the 49ers lost in their opening round game with Montana playing particularly poorly. 1985 - 26 of 47 for 296 0 td 1 int. 1986 - 8 of 15 for 98 0 td 2 int. 1987 - 12 of 26 for 109 0 td 1 int.

Now dont get me wrong, I feel Montana is the greatest QB of all time, and I am not willing to place either Brady and Manning with the all time greats until their careers are over, or at lest out of their primes. But it just goes to show you that even the great ones, or the best ever can come down to earth at times.

Honestly a very reasonable post, but you know how us Colt and Pat fans get. And in all honestly at this point you can make credible arguments for either one being on top, we'll just have to have this discussion 5-8 years in the future

 

[Kontradiction]

I find your posts extrememly depressing and difficult to read. I come to this place for fun, and each post of yours sucks the life out of it. I really hope you can tone it down, because it's ruining this place for me.

Why don't you just ignore him? Works great for me.

 

[Fixit]

Tom might be better than Peyton but he is working his way back towards Peyton's level. Tom's performance in his last game of each playoff/SB over the past three years has made him more like Peyton Manning than Joe Montana.

2005 - Losses playoff to Denver with ill advised pass to Troy Brown in the end zone who is being covered at the time by the best corner in the game Champ Bailey. Game breaking mistake by Tom.

2006 - AFCG vs Indy has ball at the end of game but has no magic up his sleeve.

2007 - SB 42 leads team to score season low 14 points. No magic at end of game to win SB 42.


Joe Montana's is the KING of NFL playoffs. Tom no longer compares. Sorry...

He definitely made a horrible throw in the Denver game, no doubt.

But the AFCCG was a thorough defensive meltdown that wasted 27 offensive points scored with that receiving corps.

The Superbowl? They only scored 14 because he spent the entire game on his ass, and still managed to lead what should have been a game-winning TD drive in the closing minutes.

Manning's routinely horrible in the playoffs.

Get some help.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I think many of us who come to this board and are hard core fans are probably inclined to read "disrespect" into the media's treatment of TB. I certainly do from time to time.

However, when I'm honest with myself I can't really say that Brady is under- or dis-respected generally by members of the media or fans (not the idiots) who understand the game. Colts fans and some of our division rivals are probably going to favor Peyton, while Pats fans are going to go for Tommy. Others will probably be split. These are both great QB's and people are entitled to prefer one over the other.

Finally, it ain't over 'til it's over. In the end, the "better QB" will be the one with more rings. There's always going to be a Bradshaw/Staubach dynamic in any comparison of Brady and P. Manning. In the end, Bradshaw is regarded as superior, largely, IMO, because he has four rings to Roger's two (despite four SB appearances). If the numbers stay where they are today (3--1), the consensus will eventually be that Brady is superior. If Manning adds another and TB stays where he is, it will probably be considered a tossup in the eyes of most. If TB adds a fourth, the discussion will be over, especially if he matches Joe's three SB MVP's.

 

[patriotsdynasty12189]

I know some of you Pats fans have a hard time understanding the individual vs. Team concept of winning in SB's, and since several of those records you posted were team records that every member of the Pats that year hold as well let me show you some more info

Manning
* Most seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards (1999–2004, 2006–2007): 8[151]
* Most consecutive seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards (1999–2004): 6[4]
* Most consecutive seasons with at least 25 touchdown passes (1998–2007; current): 10[151]
* Most games with a perfect passer rating (career): 4 (includes 1 playoff game)[97]
* Most consecutive games started to open a career by a quarterback (current): 160[152]
* Highest passer rating (season, 2004): 121.1[153]
* Most consecutive games with at least 2 touchdown passes: 13 (games 1–13, 2004)[154]
* Most consecutive games with at least 4 touchdown passes: 5 (games 7–11, 2004)[153]
* Most games with at least 4 touchdown passes (season, 2004): 6 (tied with 1984 Marino)[153]

Position on passing statistics leaderboards

Manning is currently on pace to break the career records in every major statistical category for a quarterback, including most career passing touchdowns, most career completions, and most career passing yards.[162] Manning is currently ranked in the top ten in all of these categories:

* Touchdown Passes: 306 (4th)[163]
* Passes Completed: 3,468 (8th)[164]
* Passing Yards: 41,626 (9th)[165]
* Passer Rating: 94.7 (2nd)[166]
* Passing Yards per Game: 260.2 (1st)[167]
* Completion Percentage: 64.2% (4th)[168]

You forgot to have this one.


*Threw 6 INT against the San Diego Chargers.

 

[Patjew]

Why don't you just ignore him? Works great for me.

Dude, you are correct. I shouldn't even have posted that.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I find your posts extrememly depressing and difficult to read. I come to this place for fun, and each post of yours sucks the life out of it. I really hope you can tone it down, because it's ruining this place for me.

don't let it get you down, pj. he feels that tb has let him down and he's responding by dissing him and trying to deny Brady his rightful comparison to Montana. he probably forgets that it took joe nine years to get his four rings. in 1986 or 87 he probably would have been saying that Montana was no Bradshaw...

keep the faith...

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I know some of you Pats fans have a hard time understanding the individual vs. Team concept of winning in SB's, and since several of those records you posted were team records that every member of the Pats that year hold as well let me show you some more info

Manning
* Most seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards (1999–2004, 2006–2007): 8[151]
* Most consecutive seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards (1999–2004): 6[4]
* Most consecutive seasons with at least 25 touchdown passes (1998–2007; current): 10[151]
* Most games with a perfect passer rating (career): 4 (includes 1 playoff game)[97]
* Most consecutive games started to open a career by a quarterback (current): 160[152]
* Highest passer rating (season, 2004): 121.1[153]
* Most consecutive games with at least 2 touchdown passes: 13 (games 1–13, 2004)[154]
* Most consecutive games with at least 4 touchdown passes: 5 (games 7–11, 2004)[153]
* Most games with at least 4 touchdown passes (season, 2004): 6 (tied with 1984 Marino)[153]

Position on passing statistics leaderboards

Manning is currently on pace to break the career records in every major statistical category for a quarterback, including most career passing touchdowns, most career completions, and most career passing yards.[162] Manning is currently ranked in the top ten in all of these categories:

* Touchdown Passes: 306 (4th)[163]
* Passes Completed: 3,468 (8th)[164]
* Passing Yards: 41,626 (9th)[165]
* Passer Rating: 94.7 (2nd)[166]
* Passing Yards per Game: 260.2 (1st)[167]
* Completion Percentage: 64.2% (4th)[168]

so, what's your point? no one who knows anything about the NFL disputes Manning's individual records or what he is likely to do in that regard. dissing that is bush league. but, there is only one stat that trumps all the rest, "rings." if you have any doubt, you just watch Dan Marino bristle whenever anybody asks him on the tube about what it means to have put up great individual stats and never won the big one.

as far as i'm concerned, brady and p. manning are the two greatest quarterbacks of their generation and of the entire post-cap era and, yes, i include Troy and Elway in that comparison. in the end, they will be separated by championships. right now, it's 3--1, but they both still have a lot of football to play and it could still go either way. if you doubt me, ask yourself whether Bradshaw or Staubach is remembered as the greater QB of the years right before Montana. i don't think anyone objective would say that it isn't Bradshaw with his four rings to Roger's two, despite Staubach's higher completion percentage, yards per attempt and passer rating.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I agree that Manning is one of the best ever. However, I no longer think he owns the "stat war" against Brady, and he clearly does not win the intangibles war.

Looking at their careers, it is impossible to argue that Brady's conditions have been comparable to Manning's. Manning plays in a dome, and plays against the AFC South, where it is warm throughout the year. For half the season Tom plays in the cold, where passing stats wither. I don't know why a myth exists about why Brady having "the greatest line ever" but that is far from the truth. Both of them are great at avoiding pressure, so I don't think you can refute the following stats based on this argument.

Looking at the amount of sacks each QB has taken since 2001.

2001: Manning 29, Brady, 41
2002: Manning 23, Brady, 31
2003: Manning 18, Brady, 32
2004: Manning 13 Brady, 26
2005: Manning 17, Brady, 26
2006: Manning 14, Brady, 26
2007: Manning 21, Brady, 21

Overall Manning 135, Brady 203

Manning career sack %- 3.4
Brady career sack %- 5.3

That's a lot better protection.

Manning is one of the best protected QBs in NFL history; add to this that he plays in a dome, in warm weather year around, and he has had the following first round talent: Harrison, Wayne, Clark, James, Faulk, Addai for two years, Gonzalez for one. Brady has had Moss for one year and Maroney for two. We are looking at one team who drafts exceptionally skilled players for their quarterback, and another that counts on their quarterback to make these players (see: Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney.)

Again, these conditions are far from comparable. The only season in which Brady has had enviable wideouts was 2007; for Manning it's been his whole career.

Now, if you didn't know anything about these players, and knew one player would have much better protection, much better receivers, and much better playing conditions for passing, what do you think the separation would be in their QB rating? Objectively, you should expect that rating to be around 10 points, or maybe higher.

INCLUDING THE PLAYOFFS, here is following quarterback ratings:

Manning- 93.8
Brady- 92.2

INCLUDING THE PLAYOFFS, here is the following TD:INT ratio:

Brady: 2.28
Manning: 1.82

You're telling me that out of all the factors mentioned above- the superior receivers, the ideal conditions year around, the clearly better pass blocking- that this doesn't attribute for more than 1.6 points of passer rating?

Again, Manning does not have better stats than Brady. He may be a more prolific in his passing attempts, and have more cumulative stats, but the numbers are a wash, and the when you factor in each player's conditions, it's easily Brady. No one can objectively deny this fact-finding above; if you claim that these are misleading in any way then you are being biased.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

I agree that Manning is one of the best ever. However, I no longer think he owns the "stat war" against Brady, and he clearly does not win the intangibles war.

Looking at their careers, it is impossible to argue that Brady's conditions have been comparable to Manning's. Manning plays in a dome, and plays against the AFC South, where it is warm throughout the year. For half the season Tom plays in the cold, where passing stats wither. I don't know why a myth exists about why Brady having "the greatest line ever" but that is far from the truth. Both of them are great at avoiding pressure, so I don't think you can refute the following stats based on this argument.

Looking at the amount of sacks each QB has taken since 2001.

2001: Manning 29, Brady, 41
2002: Manning 23, Brady, 31s
2003: Manning 18, Brady, 32
2004: Manning 13 Brady, 26
2005: Manning 17, Brady, 26
2006: Manning 14, Brady, 26
2007: Manning 21, Brady, 21

Overall Manning 135, Brady 203

Manning career sack %- 3.4
Brady career sack %- 5.3

That's a lot better protection.

Manning is one of the best protected QBs in NFL history; add to this that he plays in a dome, in warm weather year around, and he has had the following first round talent: Harrison, Wayne, Clark, James, Faulk, Addai for two years, Gonzalez for one. Brady has had Moss for one year and Maroney for two. We are looking at one team who drafts exceptionally skilled players for their quarterback, and another that counts on their quarterback to make these players (see: Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney.)

Again, these conditions are far from comparable. The only season in which Brady has had enviable wideouts was 2007; for Manning it's been his whole career.

Now, if you didn't know anything about these players, and knew one player would have much better protection, much better receivers, and much better playing conditions for passing, what do you think the separation would be in their QB rating? Objectively, you should expect that rating to be around 10 points, or maybe higher.

INCLUDING THE PLAYOFFS, here is following quarterback ratings:

Manning- 93.8
Brady- 92.2

INCLUDING THE PLAYOFFS, here is the following TD:INT ratio:

Brady: 2.28
Manning: 1.82

You're telling me that out of all the factors mentioned above- the superior receivers, the ideal conditions year around, the clearly better pass blocking- that this doesn't attribute for more than 1.6 points of passer rating?

Again, Manning does not have better stats than Brady. He may be a more prolific in his passing attempts, and have more cumulative stats, but the numbers are a wash, and the when you factor in each player's conditions, it's easily Brady. No one can objectively deny this fact-finding above; if you claim that these are misleading in any way then you are being biased.

brady's TD/INT ratio is the best among the all the greats, including montana, elway, marion, unitas and manning. Yet, outside patriots nation no one wants to say brady is the greatest ever. they interviewed elway last year and he said brady is definitely in the top 10. brady has done more in his first 6 years as patriots QB than elway did in his entire career.

 

[RDS11]

Originally Posted by rabthepat
Tom might be better than Peyton but he is working his way back towards Peyton's level. Tom's performance in his last game of each playoff/SB over the past three years has made him more like Peyton Manning than Joe Montana.

2005 - Losses playoff to Denver with ill advised pass to Troy Brown in the end zone who is being covered at the time by the best corner in the game Champ Bailey. Game breaking mistake by Tom.

2006 - AFCG vs Indy has ball at the end of game but has no magic up his sleeve.

2007 - SB 42 leads team to score season low 14 points. No magic at end of game to win SB 42.


Joe Montana's is the KING of NFL playoffs. Tom no longer compares. Sorry...

Selective memory...Montana wasn't quite good in both final games of the 1993 and 1994 season either.

 

[Sivy]

Peyton is the better QB without a doubt.

Tom has had more complete teams around him, and one hell of a kicker who carried him to atleast 2 of those championships. Peyton has more yards, more yardsper attempt, is way ahead in overall touchdowns, overall yards, 3,000 yard passing seasons (Tom just had his first, maybe second, Manning has more than 5)

He has more control of his offense than Tom, and he is from a football dynasty, even though they are close Peyton is still number one until Brady has more than one Peyton-like season. It took Brady to have the most productive offenses of all time, a offense that ran up the score and attempted 4th downs regularly, and had more than 50 more attempts, and he only beat Peytons TD record by 1, oh and Peyton sat out the last game

Brady came out early in the 4th in alot of games, if he stayed in and kept it up, he'd have like 60 td passes...also, he doesnt have the refs on his side like payton does either.