Holley: Pats LOVE Ellis and Dorsey (Merged)

[DaBruinz]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

per eei.

He said he has his people who said they are very very high on Ellis and would select him at 7 if he is there or would select Dorsey if he is still there as well.

We all know Holley has very good sources within the organization and if this is true then this is quite a surprise to most of us they are targeting DT's.

While Mike Holley is definitely on the ins with the Pats, nothing, and I mean nothing, you hear from now until the draft should be taken with anything but a grain of salt. This is the time when people start floating rumors and such so that you don't know who they are going to draft.

 

[spacecrime]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

I never said they were drafted to start, Wilfork was brought in to replace Ted Washington with Keith Traylor being the stopgap, With Rodney's recent injuries saftey was a huge need, and our starting TE for 2001 was Jermaine Wiggins who left after that year.(I mean Jermaine Wiggins, come on)

BB has daid many times that drafting by need is not the wayk to go. If you decide to draft the best LB or the best CB or best whatever your greatest need is and reach to to the best one available, you screw yourself.

Draft the player who will make the biggest impact on your team. That is what both he and Pioli have said.

Last few years our greatest need has been linebacker. How many LBs we drafted and what rounds?

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

Again though, when you have a solid team like the Patriots you can afford to draft BPA and not need. Especially when this team has no glaring holes. Could they use depth at linebacker, ABSOLUTELY, but what guarantee is there you're going to get that out of a rookie.

Free agency for need if you can, draft BPA if you can, that's the formula that's kept the Pats on top in this decade.

What are you smoking? No glaring holes? Do you even follow the Patriots? The Pats have glaring holes at CB, ILB and OLB.

As many have mentioned, Bruschi isn't a starter anymore. He's best as a role player in rotation. Yes, they signed Hobson, but its yet to be determined where he'll play in this defense. They still have issues behind the starters as well.

As for corner, you do realize that all the players they signed at that position were signed to one year deals. There is absolutely no guarantee that any of them will make the team.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

This team drafts for need.

If you believe this, then you haven't followed the Patriots very well nor have you listened to Bill Belichick. The Patriots do not draft solely based on NEED. For that to be the case, they wouldn't have drafted 3 O-linemen last year.

The Patriots draft based on their perceived value of a player to this team. That value is based on a multitude of things including tangible characteristics, Intangibles and, yes, need. But need, is oly part of the equation.

 

[Ungeheuer]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

Dorsey absolutely could replace Seymour. I mean, I have no idea if he's as good as Seymour, but they play the same position. He's a DT in a 4-3 and a DE in a 3-4, just like Richard. And like Seymour, who if anyone remembers played the nose as a rookie, Dorsey could probably play anywhere on the line.

People who think we'd be "wasting" a pick on a non-starter by grabbing a tackle should go back and watch some games from last year. An awful lot of snaps went to guys like Mike Wright, Jarvis Green and even LeKevin Smith. If we had another stud tackle our first-string guys would be less gassed at the ends of games. Ellis especially would be a good pick because he can play the nose on third downs -- he's sort of a prototypical pass-rushing nose tackle, which Wilfork isn't. If he's any good at all in there, you'd get guards sliding over to help on him, which in turn helps guys like Seymour and Warren farther out along the line.

If the Pats weren't hurting so badly at linebacker, none of us would be questioning this idea. Economically and in every other way it makes more sense to spend gobs of money/a high pick on a linemen. Look at the Giants --who's their impact player behind the defensive line? They had none. But their pass rush was so relentless, they managed.

I'd feel a lot better spending money on Sedrick Ellis or Glenn Dorsey than I would spending it on Keith Rivers or Rodgers-Cromartie. Literally and figuratively, more bang for the buck.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

Sure it does. Seymour, who has had two straight down years ('though is still very good) and Wilfork, are BOTH signed only through 2009 and both will be very expensive to keep. Of course we'd all prefer an awesome, playmaking LB slips to #7 but, if not, it's perfectly reasonable for the Pats to take the rare opportunity to draft an elite talent at DL, even if it's not a particularly pressing need.

The Pats, if they wanted, could sign both Seymour and Wilfork to contracts and not blink an eye. Why? Because, as of right now, the Pats have an estimated 76 million in free cap space for the 2010 season. Also, there is the potential that 2010 may be an uncapped year.

I don't believe its perfectly reasonable for the Pats to draft a player at the #7 spot and have him sit on the bench for two years behind Seymour and Warren. In fact, I think its downright unreasonable.

 

[hobbsownscoles]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

The Pats, if they wanted, could sign both Seymour and Wilfork to contracts and not blink an eye. Why? Because, as of right now, the Pats have an estimated 76 million in free cap space for the 2010 season. Also, there is the potential that 2010 may be an uncapped year.

I don't believe its perfectly reasonable for the Pats to draft a player at the #7 spot and have him sit on the bench for two years behind Seymour and Warren. In fact, I think its downright unreasonable.

Cosign....

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

Dorsey absolutely could replace Seymour. I mean, I have no idea if he's as good as Seymour, but they play the same position. He's a DT in a 4-3 and a DE in a 3-4, just like Richard. And like Seymour, who if anyone remembers played the nose as a rookie, Dorsey could probably play anywhere on the line.

And anyone who remembers Seymour playing NT as a rookie knows that its was a failed experiment that the Pats have refrained from revisiting.

People who think we'd be "wasting" a pick on a non-starter by grabbing a tackle should go back and watch some games from last year. An awful lot of snaps went to guys like Mike Wright, Jarvis Green and even LeKevin Smith. If we had another stud tackle our first-string guys would be less gassed at the ends of games. Ellis especially would be a good pick because he can play the nose on third downs -- he's sort of a prototypical pass-rushing nose tackle, which Wilfork isn't. If he's any good at all in there, you'd get guards sliding over to help on him, which in turn helps guys like Seymour and Warren farther out along the line.

First of all, Jarvis Green did a helluva job as Seymour's replacement. Mike Wright and LeKevan Smith didn't see as many snaps as you would like to have people believe. In fact, they both saw more time on Special teams than they did in games.

Sorry, but Ellis is NOT a NT. Even a "proto-typical pass rushing one." Hell, mentioning that leads me to believe you don't understand the concepts behind the Pats 3-4 2 Gap system. Ellis also doesn't get a lot of drive or explosion off the snap. Which also makes me question why you think he's a prototypical pass-rushing NT.

If the Pats weren't hurting so badly at linebacker, none of us would be questioning this idea. Economically and in every other way it makes more sense to spend gobs of money/a high pick on a linemen. Look at the Giants --who's their impact player behind the defensive line? They had none. But their pass rush was so relentless, they managed.

Actually, many of us WOULD be questioning it because of the depth that the Patriots have on their line. They proved, last year, that they have great depth and that there wasn't really any fall off from Green to Seymour. Particularly on running plays, where Green was thought to be weak.

I'd feel a lot better spending money on Sedrick Ellis or Glenn Dorsey than I would spending it on Keith Rivers or Rodgers-Cromartie. Literally and figuratively, more bang for the buck.

You want more "bang for the buck" you won't get it with Ellis or Dorsey. You'd get it by trading down. The Patriots saying that they love these kids helps to drive up their stock because the Patriots have been good at scouting D-linemen. By driving up the stock on those two, it puts the Pats in the driver seat to get the most they can in trade down scenarios.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Holley: Pats LOVE Ellis and Dorsey

I really like Ellis, and would have no problem if the Pats pick him. OTOH Dorsey has some red flags and I'd just as soon pass.

Ellis has plenty of red flags as well.
1) Size - Very undersized (only 6'1) for a Pats DE and not really big enough (only 309 lbs) to play NT

2) Ellis has had several big injuries.

 

[upstater1]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

I never said they were drafted to start, Wilfork was brought in to replace Ted Washington with Keith Traylor being the stopgap, With Rodney's recent injuries saftey was a huge need, and our starting TE for 2001 was Jermaine Wiggins who left after that year.(I mean Jermaine Wiggins, come on)

Wilfork literally dropped 10 spots or more in the draft. The Patriots never expected to land him, so it's not like they were counting on drafting a NT that year.

 

[cupofjoe1962]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

There was a rumor about a month ago that the Patriots were thinking of
trading Wilfork.

Wilfork is unwilling to talk extention (like Warren) because he does not
want to give up a chance at becoming a free agent in an uncapped year.

 

[State]

Re: Holley: Pats LOVE Ellis and Dorsey

So do I. More the Sedrick Ellis guy am I. Yeah, he's short, stout, and a little slow. But Ellis is a player like Sugar Bear Hamilton was. Just you wait and see.

I bet the Raiders are dying to take him, but will have too many choices at their spot.

 

[nickw308810]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

If Belichick believed that Ellis or Dorsey could have a Seymour/Warren impact on our DLine, than I would say draft one. But I just don't see how this could be the case. Both are short and neither have the bulk to be a true NT.

I think both are very good players, but to me neither seems like an ideal fit for the 3-4.

If we did draft one, it would definitely mean that we were NOT moving to a 4-3. What would we do, play four defensive tackles? It actually would mean only two of Seymour/Warren/Wilfork/Rookie would be on the field at the same time in most situations. That just wouldn't make sense.

 

[RussFrancis]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

Im going to fall in line with those that think the FO is leveraging their position to a degree with the notion that they'd draft Ellis if he's available at 7. Because NOONE in their right mind actually thinks that Glenn Dorsey will fall that far. Will NEVER happen. Sedrick Ellis is a 4-3 DT. He's too short to play end in the 3-4, and at his ProDay weight, 298, he's nowhere near heavy enough to play the nose. Not that he wouldnt make a great role player in a rotation with the existing line. But imo, you dont draft a guy 7th overall and pay him that kindof money unless he's a picture perfect fit.

His name is simply being used to scare the Bengals, Saints, Lions, or any other team out there in need of a young 4-3 stud DT to move up with us and throw in another pick. It would allow us to draft the corner we need, Jenkins or Cromartie, or the LB we need, Harvey or Rivers, at a more realistic contract slot. Ellis' name would probably be considered the most valuable player still available at 7 to the greatest # of teams. Pioli is a mastermind at this stuff.

Imo, if all other plans fall thru and no deals are done, they may very well take the Olineman out of Virginia. He's a big body with versatility and Neal isnt getting any younger. Protecting Brady is always going to be a HUGE part of how Pioli and Belichick think, imo.

 

[JoePats]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

Every time I saw Dorsey he was in the backfield. I would have no problem taking him. Ellis, I don't know that much about him nor did I see him play all that much.

What I do know is we own the 7th pick. There is no corner worth taking at #7. And MAYBE Rivers is worth taking 7. That's the only LB worth considering that high up. I just think that Dorsey is completely worth it. I'd take him in 2 seconds. I just don't see how we can get him.

 

[rookBoston]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

Wilfork wasn't a need?
Meriweather wasn't a need?
Mankins wasn't a need?
Maroney wasn't a need?
Warren? Seymour? Graham? they were pretty much all of some need, not all immediate starters, but none of them were picked in a spot with their strongest depth on the team like the D-Line is now

You forgot to mention Ben Watson. Not a need. We had Graham and Fauria.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

Wilfork wasn't a need?
Meriweather wasn't a need?
Mankins wasn't a need?
Maroney wasn't a need?
Warren? Seymour? Graham? they were pretty much all of some need, not all immediate starters, but none of them were picked in a spot with their strongest depth on the team like the D-Line is now

Meriweather wasn't a need, no. Neither was Maroney. Seymour was a need. So was Warren. But they were also VALUE.

Watson certainly wasn't a need pick. And if you want to start getting into the other rounds, we can.

 

[hobbsownscoles]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

You forgot to mention Ben Watson. Not a need. We had Graham and Fauria.

that doesn't count he was the second first rounder when we had virtually no visible holes on that team, and he had freakish athleticism that no one on that current team had, what does Sedrick Ellis or Glenn Dorsey bring that we don't already have?

 

[patchick]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

Meriweather wasn't a need, no. Neither was Maroney.

Really? There were vast, gaping holes projected for both positions in the players' second seasons. The Patriots like to draft a year in advance so that the player is ready to be relied on as a starter in year 2. That's nothing like a BPA philosophy, though.

(Oops, just notice that Sebman said much the same thing on the previous page.)

 

[Sicilian]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

What are you smoking? No glaring holes? Do you even follow the Patriots? The Pats have glaring holes at CB, ILB and OLB.

As many have mentioned, Bruschi isn't a starter anymore. He's best as a role player in rotation. Yes, they signed Hobson, but its yet to be determined where he'll play in this defense. They still have issues behind the starters as well.

As for corner, you do realize that all the players they signed at that position were signed to one year deals. There is absolutely no guarantee that any of them will make the team.

Um, yeah, I do follow them, thanks for that.

Perhaps we differ on the definition of glaring holes:

CB: I don't care what anyone here says, I think if our front seven does it's job, we will be just fine with Hobbs and Bryant at starting corner with some combination of the JAGs and perhaps a mid round draft pick as nickel and so forth. If we had not signed Bryant, then there would be a glaring hole. As it is, we don't have shut downs, but they're not going to single-handedly lose us games.

ILB: I might give you this one, but tell me an ILB in the draft that should be taken with the #7... I've said a thousand times here today, if they can find someone to trade with, that's probably the way to go, but if they're forced to pick at #7, I'll bet you my first born child they do NOT take an ILB.

OLB: Are you kidding? They've got Vrabel and Thomas, two potential pro-bowlers! Plus Hobson has played OLB before, and Woods can play (we don't know exactly how well, but he's depth). Now, there's a possibility that Hobson and Thomas play inside, which would leave us with a hole at OLB, but then we'd have rather solid ILB, so your other point would be moot.

None of those "holes" is going to lose it for us. There's room for improvement, but show me a team in history that is pro bowl level on every unit. That's why we can draft based on luxury, if we feel the value is right.

There's no desperation on the Patriots right now.