Holley: Pats LOVE Ellis and Dorsey (Merged)

[PatsDparty]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

I know it was a few years ago, but wasn't there word out of foxboro that the Pats really wanted Dwayne Robertson, and then Sean Taylor another year (even though the Pats werent drafting near where he went). I think this is probably just a smoke screen, the more I think about it. While they may like those 2 guys a lot, they might not like them enough at 7 and are trying to stir up some trade bait, or there's someone else that they really like that they hope might fall (if other teams push these 2 higher on their boards b/c the Pats like them) or they might trade up for.

 

[reflexblue]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

With any luck, this will be nothing more than a smokescreen.

I think you could be right a smoke screen. If i remember correctly they were talking up David Harris last year. When he was still on the board and we passed on him I know I and a lot of others were shocked.

 

[Sicilian]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

This team drafts for need.

They do? Not the way I see it. I think they draft guys they like. They need linebackers, sure, but if the highest rated linebacker on THEIR board shouldn't be taken until the 2nd round, and they can't find a trade partner, are they going to take him anyway? No, they're going to take the guy they like, which in this case could be Ellis or Dorsey.

I don't think you can count on 90% of draftees to contribute meaningfully in their first season. Some you can, most you can't. So to draft a linebacker higher than you value him in case he MIGHT be able to fill a hole... I just don't see the Patriots doing that.

As for a smoke screen, that's still very possible. Couldn't it be both though? "We really want this guy, but if we can get a good deal to trade down, we really like these other guys too. No trade partner, we take him at #7."

How is that not feasible?

 

[upstater1]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

They do? Not the way I see it. I think they draft guys they like. They need linebackers, sure, but if the highest rated linebacker on THEIR board shouldn't be taken until the 2nd round, and they can't find a trade partner, are they going to take him anyway? No, they're going to take the guy they like, which in this case could be Ellis or Dorsey.

I don't think you can count on 90% of draftees to contribute meaningfully in their first season. Some you can, most you can't. So to draft a linebacker higher than you value him in case he MIGHT be able to fill a hole... I just don't see the Patriots doing that.

As for a smoke screen, that's still very possible. Couldn't it be both though? "We really want this guy, but if we can get a good deal to trade down, we really like these other guys too. No trade partner, we take him at #7."

How is that not feasible?

This is it exactly.

They are not going to take McKelvin at #7 just because CB is a need when Glenn Dorsey is available. That's the sort of thing that we would laugh at other team's for doing.

 

[patsox23]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

Unlees your going to the 4-3, it makes no sense.

Sure it does. Seymour, who has had two straight down years ('though is still very good) and Wilfork, are BOTH signed only through 2009 and both will be very expensive to keep. Of course we'd all prefer an awesome, playmaking LB slips to #7 but, if not, it's perfectly reasonable for the Pats to take the rare opportunity to draft an elite talent at DL, even if it's not a particularly pressing need.

 

[hobbsownscoles]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

They do? Not the way I see it. I think they draft guys they like. They need linebackers, sure, but if the highest rated linebacker on THEIR board shouldn't be taken until the 2nd round, and they can't find a trade partner, are they going to take him anyway? No, they're going to take the guy they like, which in this case could be Ellis or Dorsey.

I don't think you can count on 90% of draftees to contribute meaningfully in their first season. Some you can, most you can't. So to draft a linebacker higher than you value him in case he MIGHT be able to fill a hole... I just don't see the Patriots doing that.

As for a smoke screen, that's still very possible. Couldn't it be both though? "We really want this guy, but if we can get a good deal to trade down, we really like these other guys too. No trade partner, we take him at #7."

How is that not feasible?

Wilfork wasn't a need?
Meriweather wasn't a need?
Mankins wasn't a need?
Maroney wasn't a need?
Warren? Seymour? Graham? they were pretty much all of some need, not all immediate starters, but none of them were picked in a spot with their strongest depth on the team like the D-Line is now

 

[reflexblue]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

Another thought the Giants didn't have much of a secondary,but their front four beat our O-lone like a rented mule all day. Maybe BB saw something in that,and confirmed his belief that it starts with the D-line . Although I know the 3-4 is predecated on very large smart LB's, and he loves his LB's

 

[Sicilian]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

Wilfork wasn't a need?
Meriweather wasn't a need?
Mankins wasn't a need?
Maroney wasn't a need?
Warren? Seymour? Graham? they were pretty much all of some need, not all immediate starters, but none of them were picked in a spot with their strongest depth on the team like the D-Line is now

I agree that the DL is probably our deepest unit, but it isn't like we have NO room on it. Green is a good situational end, Mike Wright is eh, and Le Kevin is still somewhat of an unknown. If you think one of these two DT's is a future Pro Bowl, elite level lineman, and the futures of BOTH Wilfork and Seymour or up in the air, you take him.

And just because guys they've chosen to draft have filled needs, doesn't mean they chose them FOR need. Again, some of those guys they traded down / up to get. In those cases, had they not found a trade partner, do you think they take the same guy / position out of need? No, they take the value at that pick, and move forward.

 

[miDeuce]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

Smokescreen! There are lots of teams that want Ellis (who should still be there at #7), I think this is nothing more than an effort to make teams like Cinci think they could take him.

What's more likely... that the Pats front office are openly leaking who they like and plan on taking to a reporter with a radio show or that they're using that reporter to help them potentially open up more options during draft day?

 

[Sicilian]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

Wilfork wasn't a need?
Meriweather wasn't a need?
Mankins wasn't a need?
Maroney wasn't a need?
Warren? Seymour? Graham? they were pretty much all of some need, not all immediate starters, but none of them were picked in a spot with their strongest depth on the team like the D-Line is now

Also, as I was stating before, Wilfork didn't start as a rookie. Meriweather had very little impact until late in the year. I can't remember, but I think Graham was behind some people before he became a full time tight end.

If they were drafted out of pure need, they wouldn't have been brought along as slowly I would think.

 

[sebman2112]

Re: Holley: Pats LOVE Ellis and Dorsey

Michael Holley (...who has connections) just said on his radio show that the Patriots LOVE Sedrick Ellis and Glenn Dorsey, and view them as "special" players.

He also said that at this point, they don't have a corner in their top 10.

Their likely selecting Ellis or Dorsey (or one of the O-linemen) at 7th overall, and there not being any CB's in this draft who are worthy of that pick, is exactly what some of us have been saying on here.

 

[hobbsownscoles]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

Also, as I was stating before, Wilfork didn't start as a rookie. Meriweather had very little impact until late in the year. I can't remember, but I think Graham was behind some people before he became a full time tight end.

If they were drafted out of pure need, they wouldn't have been brought along as slowly I would think.

I never said they were drafted to start, Wilfork was brought in to replace Ted Washington with Keith Traylor being the stopgap, With Rodney's recent injuries saftey was a huge need, and our starting TE for 2001 was Jermaine Wiggins who left after that year.(I mean Jermaine Wiggins, come on)

 

[sebman2112]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

I said this prior to the 2007 NFL draft, and it was part of the reason I thought the Patriots would select Meriweather.

In my onion, they usually like to draft for need one or two years in advance. This is why I think their selections aren't simply BPA, and they aren't simply need picks either. It's a combination of the two, and fans who think they'll simply draft based on year one need are going to get burned. This is why I wouldn't be at all shocked to see them select a D-linemen at 7th overall, if they keep the pick. I think they'll trade down though.

Edit: There should be some good LB's and CB's in the 2nd-4th rounds, too. So, I don't think the Patriots absolutely NEED to select either of those positions in the first round.

 

[Spiral]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

As he's said previously, BB subscribes to the Planet Theory of drafting. There are only so many athletic 300-pound human beings on this planet, and if you get a chance to draft one, you shouldn't pass it up. As far as salary structure, if Seymour doesn't return to a high level of play in '08, he probably won't be here in '09, with that money going into a new deal for Wilfork. Ellis' contract would then fit in with the others on the DL. If you gave that #7 money to a CB, he would be making as much as all the other DBs put together. If you gave that to a rookie LB, he'd be making as much as all the LBs except Vrabel.

 

[Sicilian]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

I never said they were drafted to start, Wilfork was brought in to replace Ted Washington with Keith Traylor being the stopgap, With Rodney's recent injuries saftey was a huge need, and our starting TE for 2001 was Jermaine Wiggins who left after that year.(I mean Jermaine Wiggins, come on)

Ok, ya got me on Graham, I rescind that one

But in the case of Washington and Harrison, is this situation that much different? Let's say they've determined that, after 2009, they're going to lose one (or both) of Wilfork and Seymour:

1) They need to have someone ready to step in, as they don't want a weak DL in their system.

2) They may NEVER get another chance to draft this high unless they have an abysmal season.

Also, having a top flight DT waiting in the wings helps them in their negotiations with Wilfork. If he wants to stay, it's on their terms.

 

[patriotsdynasty12189]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

Well, if we lose Wilfork or Seymour and Dorsey is going to get time to learn this system... my God, watch out.

Dorsey is not a NT at all. Hes a penetrating cover 2 defensive tackle, like a Warren Sapp. He couldnt replace Seymour either.

 

[Sicilian]

Re: Michael Holley believes Patriots will draft Ellis or Dorsey

Dorsey is not a NT at all. Hes a penetrating cover 2 defensive tackle, like a Warren Sapp. He couldnt replace Seymour either.

He is in college... just like Gholston is a DE but is projected as a linebacker if the Pats grab him.

It doesn't matter what they are now, only what the Pats think they can make them. And that's another point, if they think he's a conversion in their system, then they're going to need a couple years before he's ready to play their game full time.

Again, you're all probably right, it SCREAMS smoke screen, but it's not as far fetched as some might think...

 

[patriotsdynasty12189]

Re: Holley: Pats LOVE Ellis and Dorsey

Bill has thrown some exotic fronts out there before 2-4-5, 0-6-5, who says we don't mess everyone up and go 4-3-4 at times with Dorsey or Ellis? I know everyone will say "Never happen", but that is what makes Belichick great, he is thinking one step beyond "Never Happen".

No Belichick is great because hes smart.

 

[cstjohn17]

Re: Holley: Pats LOVE Ellis and Dorsey

Bill has thrown some exotic fronts out there before 2-4-5, 0-6-5, who says we don't mess everyone up and go 4-3-4 at times with Dorsey or Ellis? I know everyone will say "Never happen", but that is what makes Belichick great, he is thinking one step beyond "Never Happen".

Not the dreaded 4-3, no one has ever heard of that before...

 

[drew4008]

Re: Holley: Pats LOVE Ellis and Dorsey

I've seen a lot of Dorsey and he has been just lights out every time. He dominates, so I actually wouldn't have a problem with taking him, although I do believe he'll be gone in the top 3. I don't know as much about Ellis...