John Clayton: Pats Talking with Raiders About Derrick Burgess

[spacecrime]

Okay he's 31 and wants a new contract, why would he agree to come to NE, get a year older playing in a new position, and then expect to negotiate a lucrative new contract as a FA? If NE wanted me in that situation, I'd be insisting on a new contract to compensate for the risk of a position change lowering my value, not to mention the need to hit FA at 32.

He doesn't have to agree, does he? I don't think he has a choice. If NE and OAK agree to a straight trade, then NE picks up the contract as is and Burgess plays for what he would have gotten in Oakland. Burgess doesn't have to okay the trade.

 

[eom]

In general, that's a good point, but we already have one exception on the roster right now (Thomas is 6'2"). Maybe Belichick's rethinking his philosophy?

when they traded for thomas, they had him on the inside.

edit : bor

burgess isn't learning a new position, just a new system, if he comes here.
and frankly, if you were in the last year of your deal, which team would you pick?
he'd have a chance to do a lot more damage on the pats AND get a ring coming up on what's probably his last shot at a big money nfl contract in an uncapped year.

the problem, I would imagine, is that if all they canget is the 5th, why not just hold him, get the production of a motivated player, and then cash out on the comp pick?

edit: ok, the second would make more sense if you're oakland, but would you trade a second to rent a guy for one year?

 

[mgteich]

I'm always bemused by the critical position Redd seems to hold. IMHO, if Burgess is traded for, Redd won't even make the roster.

I think you have to distinguish between guys that Belichick would be investing three years of training, and established vets that can play for you for a couple of years, immediately Before you start out with a three year program why not start with guys that have the size, the speed, the height, and the mental qualities that you want? You can't pay big time draftees big bucks to go to school for several years so developmental players, raw but athletic, would seem the logical candidates and Belichick has obtained a stable full of them.

Derrick Burgess at 6-2 260 4.8, is almost a duplicate of Adalius Thomas. But Thomas is better. The knock on Burgess is that he can't set the edge against the run as an OLB/DE, while AD can and does. Burgess also has been injured the last couple of years, but he does have a couple of double digit sack years, including one year getting 16 sacks. That is as good as Peppers ever had.

Evaluating where Derrick can play, I would say that his lack of run edge setting rules out SOLB, so Pierre Woods,having shown welas an edger sertter last season, continues as the starter there. Vince Redd was positioned at SOLB, and his size makes sense there as a developing reserve. So there is NO CHANGE on the Strong-side OLBs. Perhasp CRabel migh tbe shifted ther for experience and to offer some posible pass rushing on obvious passing downs.

Derrick would join the WOLB pass rushers for playing time. That means AD, TBC, Crabel and Burgess are all fighting it out or platooning at WOLB, the primary pass rushing position. On passing downs, or maybe other times, Burgess may allow AD to swing inside to provide a ILB blitzing capability, like Tedy used to have, in his heyday.

But I think it is likely that AD will have to stay at WOLB almsot full time, because TBC and Burgess are not edge setters and Crabel is still raw and a question mark, as far as edge setting is concerned. But the acquisition of Burgess would still likely free up Thomas to play some ILB, should that be necessary, and improve that crew from Mayo, Guyton, Tedy to Mayo, Guyton, Tedy and Thomas, McKenzie (IR). That foursome would be a very solid ILB contingent, and deeper than the Patriots have ever had there, in any year.

IMHO, Burgess is somewhat redundant, but OTOH, he does add some more experience to the WOLB position, and improves the ILB situation as he might free AD to go there in an emergency.

 

[Jimke]

All the discussion will cease in about a week when the Burgess

to Philadelphia trade is announced.

 

[Urgent]

Interesting.

The guy sure isn't built like a prototypical Pats OLB. Belichick just spoke on why the Pats never seem to draft OLB's, based on size, weight, and speed requirements. If the top two OLB's were two 6-2 guys this year, that would be sort of funky.

Burgess has defended seven passes in eight NFL seasons, with zero INT's. That also doesn't seem quite like an OLB. While people on here have noted: "he's good in coverage," how do we know? You'd figure at least one deflection would fall in his area over eight years.

The 2005 Oakland defense, when Burgess had his best performance, was a 4-3, with Burgess at DE.
Oakland Raiders 2005 season preview - NFL - ESPN

Coordinator Rob Ryan is making the smart play by going to a 4-3 to take advantage of the play of Warren Sapp and Ted Washington, but the Raiders have almost too many defensive linemen. Their starting outside linebacking corps features two converted defensive ends Tyler Brayton and Grant Irons.

He's pretty consistently been a DE in Philly and Oakland.

He sure looks a lot more like a 4-3 DE than a 3-4 OLB.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Hmmm injury prone, will be looking for a new contract after this year. I think I'd rather see what the young guys have to offer.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Interesting.

The guy sure isn't built like a prototypical Pats OLB. Belichick just spoke on why the Pats never seem to draft OLB's, based on size, weight, and speed requirements. If the top two OLB's were two 6-2 guys this year, that would be sort of funky.

Burgess has defended seven passes in eight NFL seasons, with zero INT's. That also doesn't seem quite like an OLB. While people on here have noted: "he's good in coverage," how do we know? You'd figure at least one deflection would fall in his area over eight years.

The 2005 Oakland defense, when Burgess had his best performance, was a 4-3, with Burgess at DE.
Oakland Raiders 2005 season preview - NFL - ESPN

He's pretty consistently been a DE in Philly and Oakland.

He sure looks a lot more like a 4-3 DE than a 3-4 OLB.

It is one thing to Draft an undersized player for fear that he might not be strong/long enough to get to the passer it is another to trade for one who has proven that despite his size he can get to the QB. He isn't asked to cover much but I haven't seen anything that would show that he struggles in coverage, IMO our biggest need is a Pass Rusher and he could provide that so we don't need a Champ Bailey at OLB. At 6'2 260 He is undersized for a DE
so I don't know how he looks more like a 4-3 end to me he looks like hes 2 inches away from being perfect size for an OLB in a 3-4 and 3-4 OLB are generally smaller than 4-3 ends. Here's an article about Burgess being moved around to OLB at times last year...Oakland Raiders: Derrick Burgess Stands Up! | Bleacher Report

 

[VJCPatriot]

I would imagine oakland's been shopping him for quite some time considering they're right at the cap and he's in the last year of his deal.

I don't imagine it should take much to get him, but who knows with the raiders --- maybe they're asking a first.

I hope we don't give up more than a 4th for Burgess. His last year was not very good and he's basically a 1 year rental player as this is the last year of his contract.

Derrick Burgess Stats, News, Photos - Oakland Raiders - ESPN

the problem, I would imagine, is that if all they canget is the 5th, why not just hold him, get the production of a motivated player, and then cash out on the comp pick?

Two words - CAP RELIEF. Hobbs cost the Eagles a couple of 5th round picks, so I hope the Pats don't give up more than a 4th for Burgess.

 

[Miguel]

Two words - CAP RELIEF.

The Raiders are under the cap by $9.1 million.

ProFootballTalk.com - Nineteen Teams Have Eight-Digit Cap Space

 

[Miguel]

Did Clayton mention if Burgess already got his $1.5 million roster bonus??

 

[QB12]

Did Clayton mention if Burgess already got his $1.5 million roster bonus??

No.

QB12

 

[CoachK]

I'm always bemused by the critical position Redd seems to hold. IMHO, if Burgess is traded for, Redd won't even make the roster.

I'm always "amused" when people are "bemused". Just to be sure you're not "confused" by my comment, let me attempt to "defuse" the situation by saying I agree with you on Redd (all he has shown is that he has nice size).

 

[WelshPat]

Before the stupid NFl website change dthere layout and now the vids won't laod for me, there was a video of BillB at the pro bowl, i guess in 06, and it has him talking to Burgess, he says something about him being mega quick on 3rd down.

Deanglo hall was hooked up also, not that any one cares about him.

 

[Pats726]

Before the stupid NFl website change dthere layout and now the vids won't laod for me, there was a video of BillB at the pro bowl, i guess in 06, and it has him talking to Burgess, he says something about him being mega quick on 3rd down.

Deanglo hall was hooked up also, not that any one cares about him.

Might be worth a day two pick with a conditional upgrade of the pick...MIGHT be what is needed.

 

[jays52]

To those who talk height, does anyone know what Burgess' wingspan is? Long arms are just as valuable as length in pass defense, and the 3" shorter than prototype makes the player better against the run.

Towards the 40 numbers, I believe Rosie ran @4.9 at the combine, yet in his pre hip injury prime was regarded as one of the premier explosion and rush guys in the NFL. 50% of getting after the passer is timing, 20% is getting out of your stance, 20% is speed, 10% is your moves.

Any bay area residents out there who have seen a lot of Burgess? Your input towards hips, bending, vision, ect...would be appreciated.

 

[PatsCanDoIt]

It could be a player for player trade. Considering we are overloaded at TE, sending Watson and receiving Burgess. Their salaries are not even but their production is. So is their injury history. Watson is also a freak of an athlete. I like Watson. I'm not a hater. Watson is expendable and he has value.

 

[Frezo]

A Raiders fan said he heard a 2nd or a 3rd for Burgess.
Burgess On the verge of trade - Oakland Raiders Forum | Message Board - Where the Raider Nation lives!
He's not worth a second. Gotta be wishful thinking.

I had to edit this as I thought he wrote 2nd AND a 3rd.

 

[spacecrime]

A Raiders fan said he heard a 2nd and a 3rd for Burgess.
Burgess On the verge of trade - Oakland Raiders Forum | Message Board - Where the Raider Nation lives!
He's not worth that much. Gotta be wishful thinking.

Yeah, but it's hard to blame Raider fans for wishing and hoping and thinking and planning after the Moss trade

 

[Pats726]

A Raiders fan said he heard a 2nd or a 3rd for Burgess.
Burgess On the verge of trade - Oakland Raiders Forum | Message Board - Where the Raider Nation lives!
He's not worth a second. Gotta be wishful thinking.

I had to edit this as I thought he wrote 2nd AND a 3rd.

I think even a 3rd is too much at this point...maybe a lower pick with an upgrade depending on things..there is a risk involved...plus a new contract..so I would factor both in.

 

[DocE]

Burgess is a very good player when healthy, but he's had a long history of injuries going back to his days with the Eagles. As for the concerns about his height and his speed? Completely irrelevant in my opinion. BB prefers taller OLB's with better timed speed when drafting players, but when he sees production at the NFL level, he cares far less about measurables. I think Burgess would be a significant upgrade for this team as a pass rush specialist. I don't think he'd start, but he could play either DE or OLB on obvious passing downs. Burgess has a good burst and his strength is underrated as he's played the Left End position in a 4-3 which requires a better presence against the run. Warren Sapp raved about the guy when they played together in Oakland.

I think it all comes down to what Oakland is asking for him. I'd give up a 4th, but would have a hard time dealing a 3rd for a guy who probably would be a part time player (though playing a vital role).