Mayock laughs at the Barwin-ites

[DaBruinz]

I have asked multiple times in this thread and in others, if you can name an NFL defensive player who crossed over successfully from 1 year or limited experience on defense. Why do you keep ignoring the question? I named John Lynch because he played QB, some TE, and then played safety a little in college, and then became an NFL safety. Trevor Scott was the other convert I have described.

You've never posed the question to me. But I have answered it. The question is irrelevent. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't happen.

BTW, Trevor Scott failed at playing TE and was moved to DE for the "mighty" University of Buffalo. I've named the differences between him and Barwin on at least 3 different occasions to you, yet you can't understand how the two situations are extremely different.

I'm not sure how you're somehow, once again, twisting the text to support your delusions over what you think I said, but please continue doing so, it really does a good job supporting your argument that Barwin is a 1st rounder and that Mayock "needs a dose of reality".

Here is another lie on your part. I'm not twisting any test to support my opinions. I just use what you post. As for Barwin, again, thank you for another lie. I've never claimed that Barwin was a 1st rounder. And Mayock does need a dose of reality, in my opinion, because all the 4-3 DE to 3-4 OLB converts are going to need a 2-3 years to be productive.

 

[BlackFrancis]

My question is if Barwin's extra three and a half sacks from the end position really trump Cliff Avril's 12 starts at OLB at Perdue? I'd call Barwin's height advantage a wash against Avril's more extensive defensive experience in a better conference.

Barwin and Avril are similar athletes and both got hyped pre-Draft. Many message boarders out there were projecting Avril as a late 1st/early 2nd pick. Much like what happened with Avril, I expect Barwin will be selected a lot lower than many believe. While I believe that will be the case, it should be noted that it says nothing about Barwin's talent or his ability to succeed in the NFL.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

While I agree with Mayock completely, I tend to think the Pats will have to overdraft Barwin in order to get him.

I think the Pats parley #34 into a 2010 1st rounder, and then grab Barwin with the next pick. This is slightly higher than Mayock has Barwin, but again I think other teams looking for Patriot type players are forcing BB to overdraft him.

 

[mayoclinic]

My question is if Barwin's extra three and a half sacks from the end position really trump Cliff Avril's 12 starts at OLB at Perdue? I'd call Barwin's height advantage a wash against Avril's more extensive defensive experience in a better conference.

Barwin and Avril are similar athletes and both got hyped pre-Draft. Many message boarders out there were projecting Avril as a late 1st/early 2nd pick. Much like what happened with Avril, I expect Barwin will be selected a lot lower than many believe. While I believe that will be the case, it should be noted that it says nothing about Barwin's talent or his ability to succeed in the NFL.

Interesting. I've compared Clint Sintim to Cliff Avril, not Barwin. Like Avril, Sintim comes out of a program with a reputation for producting players who could fit at 3-4 OLB. Like Avril, Sintim had extensive experience with good stats. Like Avril, Sintim was hyped as a late 1st/early 2nd pick. And like Avril, Sintim has on average athleticism and upside. My prediction was that like Avril, Sintim will not go nearly as highly as people at one time were projecting - late 2nd/early 3rd is my guess.

 

[patchick]

I still want to know when we used a high pick on a guy going to make a significant position change.

It's a legitimate point, except that if we followed that rule than we would NEVER take an OLB high unless he happened to play for Virginia. Every single prospect at the position exception Sintim is a conversion project. Even if we targeted Peppers instead of a rookie, he'd still cost high pick(s) and be a conversion project. At the same time, the position calls for rare athletes with great size, explosion and agility, so the prospects tend to go early.

Thus our options would seem to be:

1. Accept a conversion project at #23 or #34.

2. Draft the athletically limited Sintim at #23 because we can't count on our one and only target being around later.

3. Take our chances with more day 2/UDFA projects.

I'm leaning toward #1, fully acknowledging that it's risky as heck. I just think there are significant risks with the other approaches, too, prime among them being that you end up with a miniscule chance at a game-changing athlete.

p.s. please note that the word "Barwin" didn't appear in any of the above comments. Feel free to fill in names like English, Johnson etc. according to your preferences.

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

My question is if Barwin's extra three and a half sacks from the end position really trump Cliff Avril's 12 starts at OLB at Perdue? I'd call Barwin's height advantage a wash against Avril's more extensive defensive experience in a better conference.

Barwin and Avril are similar athletes and both got hyped pre-Draft. Many message boarders out there were projecting Avril as a late 1st/early 2nd pick. Much like what happened with Avril, I expect Barwin will be selected a lot lower than many believe. While I believe that will be the case, it should be noted that it says nothing about Barwin's talent or his ability to succeed in the NFL.

Avril while one of my favorites last year but he had two years at end and did not convert from offense to defense. He was not a basketball player but do see some comparison on the field.

Both I found to have good balance, staying on his feet and bounces up quickly when cut. Is quick to react to the play when he locates the ball and has the short-area quickness to spill inside when playing a counter or trap (pulling Oline). They are both good at getting their hands up to deflect passes at the line of scrimmage. They take good angles coming off the edge and shows good vision to locate the quarterback and flush him out of the pocket. (Oh yes I have found more tape on Barwin)

I find they both need to use his hands more to ward off blocks, but is a slippery type with their good avoidance skills on the move. They both sometimes run around blocks, but can stay square in one-on-one encounters at times so I am hopeful. They both used their hands well to keep separation when he keeps them inside his frame on OT. The bottom line is I think Avril is going to be a player this year for the Lions

The more I look at him I might take him in the first

 

[mayoclinic]

p.s. please note that the word "Barwin" didn't appear in any of the above comments. Feel free to fill in names like English, Johnson etc. according to your preferences.

There's a sleeper pick from a small school in Ohio named Barwin Connors that I'm following.

 

[BlackFrancis]

Interesting. I've compared Clint Sintim to Cliff Avril, not Barwin. Like Avril, Sintim comes out of a program with a reputation for producting players who could fit at 3-4 OLB. Like Avril, Sintim had extensive experience with good stats. Like Avril, Sintim was hyped as a late 1st/early 2nd pick. And like Avril, Sintim has on average athleticism and upside. My prediction was that like Avril, Sintim will not go nearly as highly as people at one time were projecting - late 2nd/early 3rd is my guess.

Well, I see Simtim as more of pure linebacker than Avril or Barwin, at least coming out of college. Avril was kind of done a disservice by Tiller when he got moved to end. It is entirely possible Sintim drops lower than expected but I doubt it will be because of any similarity to Cliff Avril.

My point with the Avril comparison was to highlight another player that put up drool inducing workout numbers at the combine and predictably rose in many folks esteem. As a workout specimen, Sintim is way down the food chain from players like Barwin and Avril. As a linebacker, Clint Sintim had a massively productive career at Virginia - something that tends to get weighed more by NFL types than athletic benchmarks (Al Davis excepted, of course).

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

there's a sleeper pick from a small school in ohio named barwin connors that i'm following. :d

:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d

 

[BlackFrancis]

The bottom line is I think Avril is going to be a player this year for the Lions

The more I look at him I might take him in the first

I would too, if I was looking for an undersized DE for my 4-3 front.

 

[mgteich]

I don't think I've seen such draft support from this board most of the board want to draft Terrell.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I don't think I've seen such draft support from this board most of the board want to draft Terrell.

He could have been great...

 

[mgteich]

Sure, but there were lots of WR's and David Terrell wasn't worth the 6th pick in the draft. Many of us wanted LB Dan Morgan or even one of the OL's (Leonard Davis or Hurchison).

It was good that our front office drafted Richard Seymour.

He could have been great...

 

[maverick4]

If Ben Watson was worth #32, Connor Barwin is at least in that ballpark as a TE

I don't think you'd find many who would agree Watson was worth #32 in retrospect.

 

[jays52]

I think that there are several key points that the Barwin detractors are missing. When Box was evangelizing him earlier in the season, I went around and tried to gather as much knowledge on him. I initally saw great production, but it wasn't until I watched him play that I really became interested.

What Barwin represents is not a rare athlete. What Barwin represents in my mind is likely the most legitimate Jack candidate the Patriots will have the opportunity to draft in a long time. He has the length, he has the vision, he has the motor, he has the fluidity, he has all of the athletic tools.

What the Barwin detractors selectively fail to realize is that he has all of the skills that mitigate bust potential. He has shown the ability to adapt and do so at a high level. He has succeeded in all three phases of the game. He takes rare angles, indeed, he intuitively understands football angles. He plays with his hands. He has shown the vision to read the QB while read the HB out of his peripheral and make the requisate check. He has displayed the awareness to realize he will not make the QB and gets his hands into the passing lane. He has shown work ethic, leadership and character. Barwin displays three year starter awareness in his first season playing the position. Think about that.

Football is one of those things that you need to intuitively understand to be any good at once the athleticism becomes even. You need to understand the ebb and flow of the game, understand why a blocker is trying to do what he is trying to do, understand situational tendencies and be aware of blocking fakes and misdirections. This is something that is both learned and understood inately. In order for a player to be effective in the NE scheme, they need to have this degree of genetic football aptitude. Barwin displays this better than any other Jack prospect available.

Does that warrant a "reach"? In my book, yeah, it does. People are too glued into colloquial tendencies and statistical measures of positional productivity. They need to first truely evaluate the prospect, then the team's needs, then the available tallent around that player's value, then FINALLY the "position". Just because a player posts insane athletic measurables it does not render the player incapable of grasping a scheme, working hard or making a transition.

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

I would too, if I was looking for an undersized DE for my 4-3 front.

You may be on to something there. A 4-3 team looking for 5 sacks and 4 FF may look at this kid as an undersized D-End. I think at 4-3 team will draft this kid as he looked good their but I think his potential to play OLB with what I have seen on tape is why we all think what we do....us Barwinties.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I think that there are several key points that the Barwin detractors are missing. When Box was evangelizing him earlier in the season, I went around and tried to gather as much knowledge on him. I initally saw great production, but it wasn't until I watched him play that I really became interested.

What Barwin represents is not a rare athlete. What Barwin represents in my mind is likely the most legitimate Jack candidate the Patriots will have the opportunity to draft in a long time. He has the length, he has the vision, he has the motor, he has the fluidity, he has all of the athletic tools.

What the Barwin detractors selectively fail to realize is that he has all of the skills that mitigate bust potential. He has shown the ability to adapt and do so at a high level. He has succeeded in all three phases of the game. He takes rare angles, indeed, he intuitively understands football angles. He plays with his hands. He has shown the vision to read the QB while read the HB out of his peripheral and make the requisate check. He has displayed the awareness to realize he will not make the QB and gets his hands into the passing lane. He has shown work ethic, leadership and character. Barwin displays three year starter awareness in his first season playing the position. Think about that.

Football is one of those things that you need to intuitively understand to be any good at once the athleticism becomes even. You need to understand the ebb and flow of the game, understand why a blocker is trying to do what he is trying to do, understand situational tendencies and be aware of blocking fakes and misdirections. This is something that is both learned and understood inately. In order for a player to be effective in the NE scheme, they need to have this degree of genetic football aptitude. Barwin displays this better than any other Jack prospect available.

Does that warrant a "reach"? In my book, yeah, it does. People are too glued into colloquial tendencies and statistical measures of positional productivity. They need to first truely evaluate the prospect, then the team's needs, then the available tallent around that player's value, then FINALLY the "position". Just because a player posts insane athletic measurables it does not render the player incapable of grasping a scheme, working hard or making a transition.

The last time I was this excited...well, never mind, you're still too young for details.

 

[jays52]

The last time I was this excited...well, never mind, you're still too young for details.

Was it the advent of porn, master yoda?

 

[mgteich]

Charitably, this was not a very good draft for Belichick. I'm not sure many thought Watson was the best value available. The next three teams were glad to see him picked. They got Dansby, Snee and Olshansky. And then half a round later, Bob Sanders was picked. We were in the market for a safety. I think we drafted Guss Scott.

I'm don't think that Watson was even the top TE on other boards. Ben Troupe probably was. The best TE drafted was Coulee.

I don't think you'd find many who would agree Watson was worth #32 in retrospect.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Was it the advent of porn, master yoda?

Nope, that had been a big seller even before I posed for the Kamasutra.