Mayock laughs at the Barwin-ites

[CanadianPat'sFan]

Well, if you get really technical, Seymour, Warren, Mankins, and Mayo all changed positions. Graham and Watson both had to learn to be blocking TEs. BB tried to use Meriweather at CB - I think part of the need to Franchise Asante happened because BB had projected Meriweather to ballhawking CB in his place.

I've come to believe the issue isn't so much changing positions, it's learning to do what you were doing in college in a new role for NE. I'm not going to bet that BB is gunshy after Meriweather didn't work out at CB, he's getting good value out of him for the pick.

Let's look at Barwin not as an OLB which he's never played, but as a TE which he played well for Cincinnati:"Clutch," we don't hear that very often about Ben Watson. So here's a kid Watson's size, with Watson's hustle and Watson's kind of athleticism who is getting called "clutch." What could he have done at TE if he'd stayed at the position last season? Might he be worth a first round pick with another year like his Junior year? Watson had 73 receptions in his college career at Duke and Georgia, Barwin has 53 in one less year, would he have been good for 20 more catches? So as fans do we say, "NO" to another athletic TE? I guess some do. But if he was in this draft and BB drafted him at #23 as a TE we might grumble, but we'd say BB is consistent.

If BB tried to make Meriweather a CB and failed, his failure wasn't irredeemable; I can see taking a late first gamble on a kid who is showing all the things you want to see in a NE OLB, especially if you can always plug him in as a TE when Watson hits Free Agency after this season - by then you'll know if he's going to make the transition, just like you knew about Meriweather and CB. Just a different way to look at "BPA."

And another good point This is great debate boys I am glad I came home early from work

 

[maverick4]

What lack of college action?

I said 1 year of defensive action, not total college experience. Please stop twisting, distorting the text when your condescending, berating behavior doesn't work.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

If you Honestly think Barwin can be an over 10 sacks a year OLB than I guess I trust you because you have seen more of him but im just not sure. He is still not my first choice tho.

Is 10 sacks a season the standrd for 3-4 OLB play? We know the guy is also going to be dropping into coverage, unlike Dwight freeney. He's going to be playing the run first on so called 'run' downs, then rushing off his reads or dropping into coverage. Vrabel collected all his sacks when Colvin was playing across from him, Rosie goes down, Vrabes stats changed dramatically. I'm looking at Barwin as a guy who could put up 10 sacks in a season if the other parts of the defense are doing their part, he could also be like Colvin sucking up the extra protection and allowing Crable to get to the QB, or Redd, or whomever. Mostly I'm looking at him to eventually be more than TBC whom we hope plays the run better this year and plays well in coverage too. I'll give Woods another year to develop.

I think it bears repeating: I "discovered" Barwin when I kept seeing this kid at Cincinnati react to the "ball" like he had a pigskin compass needle in his head. He finds the ball well, and that allows him to make plays. I want that talent, skill, what have you on the field for NE. I've watched Larry English in games, Clint Sintim, Everette Brown, Brian Orakpo, Aaron Maybin... Think of that OLB for BC who's always making big plays, Herzlich?, it's that same deal - like Caddyshack, see the ball, be the ball, nananananana!

 

[maverick4]

Let's look at Barwin not as an OLB which he's never played, but as a TE which he played well for Cincinnati:"Clutch," we don't hear that very often about Ben Watson. So here's a kid Watson's size, with Watson's hustle and Watson's kind of athleticism who is getting called "clutch." What could he have done at TE if he'd stayed at the position last season? Might he be worth a first round pick with another year like his Junior year? Watson had 73 receptions in his college career at Duke and Georgia, Barwin has 53 in one less year, would he have been good for 20 more catches? So as fans do we say, "NO" to another athletic TE? I guess some do. But if he was in this draft and BB drafted him at #23 as a TE we might grumble, but we'd say BB is consistent.

This is a decent point, that Barwin is a skilled TE, and going off on that point, it looks possible/likely that he is going to end up as a TE, not as an OLB, in the NFL. He does compare well to a Ben Watson, another athletic freak who was smart and coachable. The problem is if we look at Barwin as a TE, I don't know if others here would agree Watson was worth a 1st round pick.

 

[BelichickFan]

Well, if you get really technical, Seymour, Warren, Mankins, and Mayo all changed positions. Graham and Watson both had to learn to be blocking TEs.

Those were all minor position changes compared to the responsibilities of an OLB. I, for one, don't think Belichick ever considered switching Meriweather to CB but he wanted to play him there to see how he could use him covering WR one on one in nickel and dime defenses.

 

[DaBruinz]

Bull. The vast majority of your posts are in usually in some sort of condescending pissing match with someone. Even in passing you can't help but add in some rude remark like the one I pasted above that you addressed to triplechamp. A few years ago when I started reading, I thought it was amusing that you always seemed to be berating some poster here, but your act is getting really tiring, you are in denial about it, and unlike others here I don't back down from douchebags who think they know more than other posters, or even well-respected draft analysts like Mayock.

But thanks for confirming what I wrote about you, it was very predictable that your first response to BF's thread was to discredit Mayock.

You are the one who is bull and don't know what you are talking about. But that is normal for you. You just lie and make things up and pretend you know what you are talking about. Like you've done with Barwin. Like you did with McDaniels.

I didn't confirm anything that you wrote. But typically of someone like yourself, you spin it so you just think it does.

First of all, I did NOTHING to "discredit" Mayock. I just pointed out a fact. That any of the DEs who are converting to OLB in the 3-4 are 2-3 years away. I AM allowed to disagree with him. That doesn't mean I am discrediting him.

There are plenty of posters on here who know more than I do. There are plenty of posters on here who don't know 1% of what I do. That's life. When posters act civil (something you know nothing about) I treat them civilly and without condescension. When they act like YOU do and make BS proclamations or purposely exaggerate what is said, then I treat them in the manner they've earned.

If you don't like it, put me on ignore. It won't be any skin off my back.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Those were all minor position changes compared to the responsibilities of an OLB. I, for one, don't think Belichick ever considered switching Meriweather to CB but he wanted to play him there to see how he could use him covering WR one on one in nickel and dime defenses.

The counter to that argument is he could see some of that in Training Camp and the rest by putting him in as a Nickelback in garbage time. Instead he used him as CB to spell Asante.

 

[maverick4]

Like you've done with Barwin. Like you did with McDaniels.

Suddenly it's "exagerrating" or lying to say the armchair experts here are over-rating Barwin? It really explains a lot when your definition of lying is basically disagreeing with you.

As for McDaniels, funny you keep bringing him up by yourself, but I said he was inexperienced, young, and lacked general context or situational awareness, and since he's gone to Denver, I don't think most would disagree with that assessment.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Is 10 sacks a season the standrd for 3-4 OLB play? We know the guy is also going to be dropping into coverage, unlike Dwight freeney. He's going to be playing the run first on so called 'run' downs, then rushing off his reads or dropping into coverage. Vrabel collected all his sacks when Colvin was playing across from him, Rosie goes down, Vrabes stats changed dramatically. I'm looking at Barwin as a guy who could put up 10 sacks in a season if the other parts of the defense are doing their part, he could also be like Colvin sucking up the extra protection and allowing Crable to get to the QB, or Redd, or whomever. Mostly I'm looking at him to eventually be more than TBC whom we hope plays the run better this year and plays well in coverage too. I'll give Woods another year to develop.

I think it bears repeating: I "discovered" Barwin when I kept seeing this kid at Cincinnati react to the "ball" like he had a pigskin compass needle in his head. He finds the ball well, and that allows him to make plays. I want that talent, skill, what have you on the field for NE. I've watched Larry English in games, Clint Sintim, Everette Brown, Brian Orakpo, Aaron Maybin... Think of that OLB for BC who's always making big plays, Herzlich?, it's that same deal - like Caddyshack, see the ball, be the ball, nananananana!

If he cant average at least 10 sacks a year as a first round pick playing OLB than I dont think he warrants a first round pick because thats what this team needs. I honestly think we can get the next Suggs or Porter in this draft with the talent available earlier. This team dosnt need another Colvin right now.

 

[maverick4]

You are the one who is bull and don't know what you are talking about.

You sound like a little child ('I know you are but what am I' comeback) with that line, which makes sense and is consistent with the immature way you have treated others here for years.


Back to the topic, the only similar prospects (not positionally) I can think of who played lots of offense in college, then showed flashes of brilliance on defense for a little bit before being drafted, are for one John Lynch as a safety, and Trevor Scott who played two years of TE and then two great years of DE. Lynch was a 3rd rounder, Scott was a 6th rounder and plays OLB now for the Raiders.

Can anyone else name more offense-to-defense college prospects who became good NFL defensive players, and a bonus would be if you found candidates who were 1st round picks.

 

[DaBruinz]

I said 1 year of defensive action, not total college experience. Please stop twisting, distorting the text when your condescending, berating behavior doesn't work.

I love catching you in your lies. I quoted you verbatim. You did NOT say 1 year of defensive action. Here is the quote again for you:

Another question that needs an answer is what is the list of 1st-round picks, high on hype but low on actual defensive college production, who went on to successful NFL careers worthy of their pick? John Lynch was a successful convert from limited college action, but he was a 3rd rounder.

No where do you say 1 year of defensive action. I didn't hit you with it before, but Barwin's college production for a TE was pretty good and very good as a DE.

As a counter to your blathering, can you name any other converts other than Trevor Scott, who has made the switch at all?

Again, the only person who is twisting and distorting text is you. And you've done so with your lies about Box and Myself. You claimed that we said we were draft experts. No where will you find anything by myself or him stating such. You will also not find anywhere that I've claimed that Barwin was 1st round talent or that the Patriots MUST or SHOULD draft Barwin at 23. Those are just lies that you've created in your attempts to discredit us and make yourself look like you are smarter than he or I.

 

[DaBruinz]

Those were all minor position changes compared to the responsibilities of an OLB. I, for one, don't think Belichick ever considered switching Meriweather to CB but he wanted to play him there to see how he could use him covering WR one on one in nickel and dime defenses.

BBFan - BB would disagree with you in regards to going from 4-3 1 GAP DT to a 3-4 2 Gap NT. He's said that its not an easy switch though Wilfork made it look so. The same with 4-3 MLB to 3-4 ILB. Otherwise the Pats would have found someone before Mayo.

I don't think Box or myself have said that it would be an easy transition for Barwin. Its going to take a lot of hard work on his part and I think that's a given. What I see when I watch Barwin is a kid who is a football player that is also an amazing athelete. This kid loves being on the field. And as Box pointed out, has a nose for the football. He's football smart and wants to learn. And that isn't something that was just said by him as a selling point during a job interview. That's something that's been mentioned about Barwin even prior to this year.

 

[maverick4]

An excellent, key point that will be overlooked/ignored since it can't be explained away.

Another question that needs an answer is what is the list of 1st-round picks, high on hype but low on actual defensive college production, who went on to successful NFL careers worthy of their pick? John Lynch was a successful convert from limited college action, but he was a 3rd rounder.

I have asked multiple times in this thread and in others, if you can name an NFL defensive player who crossed over successfully from 1 year or limited experience on defense. Why do you keep ignoring the question? I named John Lynch because he played QB, some TE, and then played safety a little in college, and then became an NFL safety. Trevor Scott was the other convert I have described.

I'm not sure how you're somehow, once again, twisting the text to support your delusions over what you think I said, but please continue doing so, it really does a good job supporting your argument that Barwin is a 1st rounder and that Mayock "needs a dose of reality".

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

This is a decent point, that Barwin is a skilled TE, and going off on that point, it looks possible/likely that he is going to end up as a TE, not as an OLB, in the NFL. He does compare well to a Ben Watson, another athletic freak who was smart and coachable. The problem is if we look at Barwin as a TE, I don't know if others here would agree Watson was worth a 1st round pick.

Mayock has been saying for the past three weeks that he wouldn't be drafting Barwin as a LB/DE, but would draft him as a TE to take advantage of that athleticism, which is why nothing in tonight's piece is upsetting, it's just more of the same. As for folk's fear of another Watson, at some point NE will have to replace Watson, you can do it with a Pettigrew who can block from day one but isn't going to be much of a reciever for you, or you can do it with an athlete who may or may not be better than Watson as a receiver. There is a job opening after this season.

If Ben Watson was worth #32, Connor Barwin is at least in that ballpark as a TE - a lot of people argued for Watson to be a "reach," but most projections had him in the second round before NE's pick at #64. When you factor in that Watson has never blocked a kick, never played Gunner, and never rushed the passer, you have to adjust the value since there isn't an equivalence between the two. "Ziggy" Hood may be the better value at #23, but projections have him mid second to late first too, so it's not like he's a clear cut choice either. I'm not convinced that Beatty or Britton improve the O-line other than to make it younger. There's no report of Dante looking at them, we know he looked at Mankins who was the last high OL drafted. The only two CBs coming in for a visit so far are Jenkins and Alphonso Smith, and Mayock is projecting Butler may even be the first CB drafted so it wouldn't matter if he came in. No one but mgteich seems interested in WR...

Based on draft projections from NFL Draft Scout, here's the first two rounds prospects who have visited. Figure Dante has looked at Wood and Meredith, both 2nd round projections, you've got a fair idea who the Pats are keying on with those high draft picks.

Round One
CB/S Malcom Jenkins
DL Evander Hood
DE/OLB Connor Barwin
CB Alphonso Smith

Round Two
DE/OLB Robert Ayers
S Patrick Chung
S Louis Delmas
RB Andre Brown
S William Moore
DL Jarron Gilbert

 

[maverick4]

I didn't hit you with it before, but Barwin's college production for a TE was pretty good and very good as a DE.

Thank you for that tidbit Captain Obvious, I'm sure others here were not aware that Barwin played tight end before becoming a DE. If you're somehow saying that a jack of all trades is worth a 1st rounder, it's not convincing. Barwin can't play DE at the next level, you said yourself any DE-to-OLB convert will take years, and at TE he's not better than Pettigrew and arguably not better than Watson when he came out (and showed he wasn't worth a 1st round pick).

You'll probably reply with how good he'll be on special teams. That is another brilliant argument to help support why he's 1st round material...

 

[mayoclinic]

For me the question isn't whether or not Barwin is the best of the bunch - it's whether we should spend a #1 pick on a guy changing positions; and whether Belichick would be so inclined.

I seem to recall an awful lot of people advocating taking Keith Rivers last year and moving him to WILB, even though he had no inside experience. And the money we were looking at in the #7-10 range was much higher than #23. Then there were those two DTs we took and converted to 3-4 DE's with the #6 and #13 picks in 2001 and 2003. And the OT we converted to OG in 2005 at #32.

 

[DaBruinz]

Suddenly it's "exagerrating" or lying to say the armchair experts here are over-rating Barwin? It really explains a lot when your definition of lying is basically disagreeing with you.

First of all, its LYING when you claim that someone said something that they didn't. And you've regularly done that to Box and myself. Claiming we said things that we haven't. Neither Box nor I have ever claimed to be draft experts. That is YOU lying about us because YOU disagree with us.

And this is a perfect example of your exaggerating. My definition of lying is what is in the dictionary. Not the BS you just typed.

As for McDaniels, funny you keep bringing him up by yourself, but I said he was inexperienced, young, and lacked general context or situational awareness, and since he's gone to Denver, I don't think most would disagree with that assessment.

You down right LIED about McDaniels claiming that he said something that he didn't. Its amazing how short your memory is.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

If he cant average at least 10 sacks a year as a first round pick playing OLB than I dont think he warrants a first round pick because thats what this team needs. I honestly think we can get the next Suggs or Porter in this draft with the talent available earlier. This team dosnt need another Colvin right now.

Suggs played in 16 games each year he's been in the league, started 16 4 of 6 seasons, and 15 1 year, he started one game his rookie season. He had 12.5 sacks as a rookie, 10.5 as a sophomore, then 8, 9.5, 5, and 8. His average is 8.8/year, but his production slowed after the first two seasons.

Porter has played at least 14 games every year. His production since his rookie year: 2, 10.5, 9, 9, 5, 7, 10.5, 7, 5.5, 17.5 for an average of 8.3/year. Throw out the high and low since both are so far out of wack from the other years - and his average is 5.8/year.

Vrabes average 4.6, 6 while with NE. I think 6 is a decent number for a NE OLB if the rest of the unit get their's too.

 

[DaBruinz]

If he cant average at least 10 sacks a year as a first round pick playing OLB than I dont think he warrants a first round pick because thats what this team needs. I honestly think we can get the next Suggs or Porter in this draft with the talent available earlier. This team dosnt need another Colvin right now.

Who was the last OLB to get 10+ sacks prior to Mike Vrabel doing it in 2007? It was 1995 and done by Willie McGinest. McGinest didn't regularly get 10 sacks even when he was playing DE in the 4-3.

3-4 OLBs in the Pats 2 gap system don't tend to get a lot of sacks. If you look at Vrabel, most years he had between 3 and 5.5 sacks. There were only 2 years where he had more than 8. 2003 when he put on 9.5 and 2007 when he put up 12.5.

The Pats system, when it was working in 2003 and 2004, was designed to bring pressure from any of the positions. The Pats need an ILB to replace Bruschi and an OLB to get it back to being able to do that. Short term, I don't see anyone in the draft who can do that on the outside. Long term, I feel that Barwin is one of the best options.

 

[DaBruinz]

You sound like a little child ('I know you are but what am I' comeback) with that line, which makes sense and is consistent with the immature way you have treated others here for years.

We've already established that is your modus operandi. Not mine. But keep it up.

Back to the topic, the only similar prospects (not positionally) I can think of who played lots of offense in college, then showed flashes of brilliance on defense for a little bit before being drafted, are for one John Lynch as a safety, and Trevor Scott who played two years of TE and then two great years of DE. Lynch was a 3rd rounder, Scott was a 6th rounder and plays OLB now for the Raiders.

Trevor Scott plays DE in the 4-3 for the Raiders. He does not play OLB. The Raiders used a 4-3 this year. So the comparison really isn't valid. I've attempted to point this out to you every time you've brought it up. Also, This was Scott's rookie year. He had 5 sacks, which was pointed out by others to be tied for the rookie lead.

Lastly, just because Scott, who is not as gifted as Barwin, and Lynch were drafted where they were, doesn't mean that Barwin is worth less. It means that the depth of talent in their draft classes was different.

Can anyone else name more offense-to-defense college prospects who became good NFL defensive players, and a bonus would be if you found candidates who were 1st round picks.

This has nothing to do with anything. You have to judge each player on their own merits.