Mayock laughs at the Barwin-ites

[Box_O_Rocks]

Charitably, this was not a very good draft for Belichick. I'm not sure many thought Watson was the best value available. The next three teams were glad to see him picked. They got Dansby, Snee and Olshansky. And then half a round later, Bob Sanders was picked. We were in the market for a safety. I think we drafted Guss Scott.

I'm don't think that Watson was even the top TE on other boards. Ben Troupe probably was. The best TE drafted was Coulee.

Where is Troupe these days?

 

[BPF]

Or he does with him what he did with Suggs back in the day. People just do not realize that he abused the #1 pick in the draft last year and was not used correctly. Rex Ryan will use him correctly and he will be a factor for them this year I guarantee.

I can agree with the fact that some of Gholston's flaws are correctable w/good coaching but he has a big time problem with intensity or lack thereof. I'd like to point out that Magini while not one of my favorite people is a pretty good coach and he got nothing at all out of him. Gholston can not be a dominating player in this league when he does not always play hard either. He also doesn't have good instincts. At this point he's a great athlete with low football intelligence and a motor that doesn't always run, which at the spot that he was picked = big time bust.

 

[mayoclinic]

I think that there are several key points that the Barwin detractors are missing. When Box was evangelizing him earlier in the season, I went around and tried to gather as much knowledge on him. I initally saw great production, but it wasn't until I watched him play that I really became interested.

What Barwin represents is not a rare athlete. What Barwin represents in my mind is likely the most legitimate Jack candidate the Patriots will have the opportunity to draft in a long time. He has the length, he has the vision, he has the motor, he has the fluidity, he has all of the athletic tools.

What the Barwin detractors selectively fail to realize is that he has all of the skills that mitigate bust potential. He has shown the ability to adapt and do so at a high level. He has succeeded in all three phases of the game. He takes rare angles, indeed, he intuitively understands football angles. He plays with his hands. He has shown the vision to read the QB while read the HB out of his peripheral and make the requisate check. He has displayed the awareness to realize he will not make the QB and gets his hands into the passing lane. He has shown work ethic, leadership and character. Barwin displays three year starter awareness in his first season playing the position. Think about that.

Football is one of those things that you need to intuitively understand to be any good at once the athleticism becomes even. You need to understand the ebb and flow of the game, understand why a blocker is trying to do what he is trying to do, understand situational tendencies and be aware of blocking fakes and misdirections. This is something that is both learned and understood inately. In order for a player to be effective in the NE scheme, they need to have this degree of genetic football aptitude. Barwin displays this better than any other Jack prospect available.

Does that warrant a "reach"? In my book, yeah, it does. People are too glued into colloquial tendencies and statistical measures of positional productivity. They need to first truely evaluate the prospect, then the team's needs, then the available tallent around that player's value, then FINALLY the "position". Just because a player posts insane athletic measurables it does not render the player incapable of grasping a scheme, working hard or making a transition.

Nicely said. He also has the motor, drive, moxie, intelligence and ball awareness to excel.

 

[BPF]

Can someone who is constantly disparaging Barwin please, please, please name for me one better Jack conversion prospect in the draft? Then, could they validate their opinion with something other than a quote from a guy who knows as much about football as my Jack Russell? Disclaimer, I was not referring to Mayock.

I don't know if it was you or someone else, so many Barwin threads, but with his experience at TE wouldn't he be a better prospect as a SAM? Especially when you combine that with his athletic skills. For ex as a SAM LB, when they shift scissor and Wilfork draws the double from the RG and RT, and Warren is also there causing the RT to be concerned Barwin would be in a great position to wrap around the line and get to the QB.

He could be a JACK though, with his experience at DE in college he can cheat forward and one gap as a DE or he can zone. Although he did have some issues with edge contain in college and AD has this spot covered with Crable in reserve. On the other side with Woods and TBC we could use an upgrade.

 

[jays52]

I don't know if it was you or someone else, so many Barwin threads, but with his experience at TE wouldn't he be a better prospect as a SAM? Especially when you combine that with his athletic skills. For ex as a SAM LB, when they shift scissor and Wilfork draws the double from the RG and RT, and Warren is also there causing the RT to be concerned Barwin would be in a great position to wrap around the line and get to the QB.

He could be a JACK though, with his experience at DE in college he can cheat forward and one gap as a DE or he can zone. Although he did have some issues with edge contain in college and AD has this spot covered with Crable in reserve. On the other side with Woods and TBC we could use an upgrade.

No doubt, I think that could be possible. That said, I think with Vrabel gone, AD will likely shift over to the Sam. He's definately the best run defender we currently have at OLB. In addition, I think the NFL strongside utilization of the #1 TE is like 70%. AD has demonstrated his ability to lock down almost any top flight TE in the league. So, I think he would present more value there. I think that at Jack, Barwin could get acclimated to the scheme without having to constantly line up with a guy in front of him. I think with his speed on the weakside, he could get in the backfield a lot both on run and pass plays and be slightly more free to roam around in space. Once he learns how to take on blocks and cover the TE a little better, I think he could quite possibly be a terrific Sam.

 

[SunnyDenmark]

When posters act civil (something you know nothing about) I treat them civilly and without condescension. When they act like YOU do and make BS proclamations or purposely exaggerate what is said, then I treat them in the manner they've earned.

That sounds nice. Turning over a new leaf - are we?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

That sounds nice. Turning over a new leaf - are we?

Db rarely calls me names and we've disagreed often enough.

 

[Handel]

It may be late to post it, but here is the Mayock video on Barwin

NFL Video Galleries

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Ya cuz gholstons career is now over and he is a commplete bust...Rex Ryan turns him into a beast mark my words.

so far, you are wrong about a player who does not like contact

 

[tanked_as_usual]

I think it is hilarious that somebody dedicated a thread to their obsession regarding the fact that some people here like a certain player....there's even one idiot here who used his own obsession against himself in responding to gholston and mayocks 'closest thing to a sure bet'

the thing is that barwin has been pretty successful at everything he has done in football.......even if it takes a year or 2 to develop him into a 3 down guy, if you can get another mike vrabel type of player out of him, there is nothing wrong with using any pick the pats have on him........the pats have targeted players before and reached for them with success.........they have also had players fall on their lap (wilfork)

barwin has every intangible the pats look for and the fact is the pats need that in a younger body to continue the team philosophy

the bottom line is that unless you're in the top 5, who you are going to wind up with is a relative crapshoot.....sure teams make moves to make things more obvious

some of the same people who chide the barwin notion drool over jaron gilbert physical prowess while lacking the understanding that he played against a bunch of nobodies in the WAC, but since he can jump out of a swimming pool, he must be the real deal

get over yourselves

 

[maverick4]

even if it takes a year or 2 to develop him into a 3 down guy, if you can get another mike vrabel type of player out of him

Barwin is not the next Vrabel. Still like him without the comparison?

 

[VJCPatriot]

Barwin is not the next Vrabel. Still like him without the comparison?

Yes. Because he could be even better.

 

[JoeB]

I'm sure somebody has probably mentioned this. But the patriots don't have a fullback. What if they get barwin in the 3rd round... and play him at FB/TE hybrid like a chris cooley?

People are wayyy too high on barwin so I don't think he will be picked in the first round, or by the patriots at all.

Remember most if not all of the people doing these mock draft are not actual scouts for teams. So they really have no idea what each team is thinking... or where each guy is really valued by each team. For all we know no one will touch barwin until the late 2nd or 3rd round.

They made him work out as a TE remember not at OLB.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I'm sure somebody has probably mentioned this. But the patriots don't have a fullback. What if they get barwin in the 3rd round... and play him at FB/TE hybrid like a chris cooley?

People are wayyy too high on barwin so I don't think he will be picked in the first round, or by the patriots at all.

Remember most if not all of the people doing these mock draft are not actual scouts for teams. So they really have no idea what each team is thinking... or where each guy is really valued by each team. For all we know no one will touch barwin until the late 2nd or 3rd round.

They made him work out as a TE remember not at OLB.

Why wouldn't they? He has the skills to play tight end. And by watching the way he moved as a tight end they can get a feel for his athleticism/fluidity without tipping their hand too much about interest for him as a defensive player.

 

[maverick4]

Why wouldn't they? He has the skills to play tight end.

The Pats signed a well rounded starting tight end in Chris Baker. We still have Ben Watson, and a developing Dave Thomas. So we would use a #1 or #2 for another tight end?

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Barwin is not the next Vrabel. Still like him without the comparison?

you're right......he's bigger, faster and stronger coming out of college........

any other startling revelations mr. expert?????

 

[DaBruinz]

Barwin is not the next Vrabel. Still like him without the comparison?

Barwin and Trevor Scott aren't clones. Where does your argument stand without that comparison?

 

[VJCPatriot]

The Pats signed a well rounded starting tight end in Chris Baker. We still have Ben Watson, and a developing Dave Thomas. So we would use a #1 or #2 for another tight end?

Did you even read the whole thing? They could be working him out at tight end just to see how well he moves in space. Moving well in space is an important attribute for both tight ends and outside linebackers. BB values versatility. Barwin can also project to play 3-4 OLB. He can play both positions. That makes him MORE valuable in BB's eyes, not less.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

maverick has no point other than to tell people who isn't going to get drafted...........in other words, the easy way out

 

[maverick4]

Barwin and Trevor Scott aren't clones. Where does your argument stand without that comparison?

If you remove Scott, it weakens YOUR argument because there aren't many other precedents for players who became successes in the NFL on the defensive side after playing 1 good year of defense in college. If you maybe had history on your side, perhaps it would be more convincing than the testimony your own expert eyes.