WRs: Every team but one

[patriot1136]

What do we think about our additions of Ellington and Maurice Harris? They could be solid role players. I have my hesitations on Ellington though because he always seems to get hurt.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I don't think it's overrating the importance of the WR position to say that a depth chart of just Edelman and Dorsett, with Gronkowski's status unknown, is pretty shaky.

Of course there are multiple ways to get it done. I'm just asking what YOU would do. E.g. saying "I would double-dip on tight ends in the draft, I think that's the best way to strengthen the total receiving corps" is one potential answer.

Sure the need a Gronk and Jules replacement. I'm assuming that already.

They also just signed a TE and two WRs yesterday. They may be good. They may suck. We don't know.

Overrating the importance is when fans suggest we need to get OBJ when we really don't.

Their offense is from the inside-out. That is Tom's strength. Tom's other strength is manipulating coverages, reading defenses and accuracy inside the hashes. Throwing deep intermediate on the outside is not his strength (anymore)

Find those receivers that match his current strengths. Young veterans who are smart, have good hands and financially reasonable.

Keep in mind they have a legit running game now. The need for Grade A WR is not critical IMO. Just need a bunch of Grade Bs

If its a TE, great. If it's a WR, great.

It doesn't matter.

 

[patsinthesnow]

To answer the OP:

While rookie WRs making a big impact are rare, they are being more common in recent years. DJ Moore & Calvin Ridley both had productive rookie years at picks in the 20s. Juju Smith-Schuster & Michael Thomas had great rookie years as round 1-2 possession, refined WRs.

I would draft two WRs in the top 100. Most draftniks say it is the deepest draft class since 2014.

To the Pats can’t draft WRs crowd. While that is arguably true, they really don’t put in the draft capital either. Here are the WRs drafted by the team in the top 100 picks in the last decade:

2013: Aaron Dobson (59) - Small school H/W/S prospect that never topped 700 yards in a college season.

2010: Taylor Price (90) - Small school prospect that never topped 800 yards in a college season.

2009: Brandon Tate (83) - WR2 on his own team to Hakeem Nicks & tore his ACL his senior year. Never topped 1,000 yards & had 3 career TDs in college.


That level of investment is basically nonexistent & has to be 32/32 of all NFL teams. What do the Pats expect from the above? RD 4-7 picks are more or less lottery tickets. Ironically, they still cashed in on one lotto ticket with Edelman.

Invest. I’m not convinced a talented rookie WR with a refined skillset couldn’t mesh with Brady. Thompkins was a fringe NFL talent & they managed to form a connection before it went south due to a lack of ability. Malcolm Mitchell without a doubt did & helped win a SB. If AJ Brown is available in the 20s, go get him & you have your version of Michael Thomas/Juju. Deus’ guy Isabella in RD3 could make an early impact as well IMO (as well as a handful of other players in this class).

 

[TN patriot fan]

I think we either need to draft Hockenson or Andy Isabella. Fant could also work although Hockenson had more production, and doesn't have the negative buzz in recent days about his attitude at the combine. I realize that neither of the TEs may be available when we draft; I'd love to see us trade up just enough to have a shot at Hockenson, maybe trade up to #15? As many picks as we have this year, it seems like it shouldn't take selling the farm to get that done.

 

[patchick]

Just a little reality check for the group: nobody in this thread so far has advocated opening up the checkbooks for a top-of-the line, big-name WR corps. Literally nobody. No sign of that at all.

I know it can be hard to tell, given how many people are arguing against that.

 

[TN patriot fan]

To answer the OP:

While rookie WRs making a big impact are rare, they are being more common in recent years. DJ Moore & Calvin Ridley both had productive rookie years at picks in the 20s. Juju Smith-Schuster & Michael Thomas had great rookie years as round 1-2 possession, refined WRs.

I would draft two WRs in the top 100. Most draftniks say it is the deepest draft class since 2014.

To the Pats can’t draft WRs crowd. While that is arguably true, they really don’t put in the draft capital either. Here are the WRs drafted by the team in the top 100 picks in the last decade:

2013: Aaron Dobson (59) - Small school H/W/S prospect that never topped 700 yards in a college season.

2010: Taylor Price (90) - Small school prospect that never topped 800 yards in a college season.

2009: Brandon Tate (83) - WR2 on his own team to Hakeem Nicks & tore his ACL his senior year. Never topped 1,000 yards & had 3 career TDs in college.


That level of investment is basically a joke & has to be 32/32 of all NFL teams. What do the Pats expect from the above? RD 4-7 picks are more or less lottery tickets. Ironically, they still cashed in on one lotto ticket with Edelman.

Invest. I’m not convinced a talented rookie WR with a refined skillset couldn’t mesh with Brady. Thompkins was a fringe NFL talent & they managed to form a connection before it went south due to a lack of ability. Malcolm Mitchell without a doubt did & helped win a SB. If AJ Brown is available in the 20s, go get him & you have your version of Michael Thomas/Juju. Deus’ guy Isabella in RD3 could make an early impact as well IMO (as well as a handful of other players in this class).

I say take Isabella in the second round, or even the first if we miss on Hockenson. Anybody who racked up 1,700 yards and thirteen TDs in his most recent season and ran a 4.31 40 at the combine is as close to a can't-miss as you can get. If we had the luxury of waiting for a guy to develop we could take one of the taller guys who had less college production, ran slower at the combine, etc. How often does a wideout come along who runs like this and also had off-the-charts production in college? He's the same height as Steve Smith.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Just a little reality check for the group: nobody in this thread so far has advocated opening up the checkbooks for a top-of-the line, big-name WR corps. Literally nobody. No sign of that at all.

I know it can be hard to tell, given how many people are arguing against that.

We had a dozen of people on this board who wanted....

-OBJ
-Trade for Julio Jones
-Trade for AJ Green (including myself but not at his current deal)
-Shoulda kept Cooks because Gordon can't stay clean
-AB

 

[Steve102]

I think most people on here understand that we don't need AB or someone like that to win.

The OP was just asking "what would you do at WR?" Are you happy with what we have now (which is perfectly justified given the list you just posted). Or do you think they should try to get better at the position, and if so how, especially given history of lack of draft success?

As I said, my main concern is what happens if Edelman goes down. The remaining guys we have at WR aren't close to any of the 6 SB years.

Well, we clearly need bodies. I really thought they'd keep Patterson for the money he signed for. I agree that Edeleman is it. I would like to take one of these athletic TEs early and then use him/them like they did with Hernandez. Like everyone else, I do get frustrated with the lack of interest in the position by the front office, but you can't argue with the results. So I just throw may hands up and say they'll figure it out. They have proven that they will.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

Just a little reality check for the group: nobody in this thread so far has advocated opening up the checkbooks for a top-of-the line, big-name WR corps. Literally nobody. No sign of that at all.

I know it can be hard to tell, given how many people are arguing against that.

I'd say the cap situation has something to do with that. Regardless, multiple threads have advocated for trades -- AB, OBJ, AJG*, etc. If we had the space, I'd be happy to spend big for two receivers, in fact. We could use an outside receiver as well as another slot player.

*Okay, I know that no one calls Green AJG, but I had to stick with the initials.

 

[Deus Irae]

Well, we clearly need bodies. I really thought they'd keep Patterson for the money he signed for. I agree that Edeleman is it. I would like to take one of these athletic TEs early and then use him/them like they did with Hernandez. Like everyone else, I do get frustrated with the lack of interest in the position by the front office, but you can't argue with the results. So I just throw may hands up and say they'll figure it out. They have proven that they will.

"But they won" is not a valid defense to "The WRs suck". A does not disprove B.

 

[patfanken]

I don’t think anyone is saying ignore the wr position.
I think the reality is that it’s one of the worst places we can invest big cap $ comparatively.

This exact sentence needs to be repeated OVER and OVER again until even Felger gets it.

As I have said time and again the WR position is by far the most over rated single position in football. (unless your aim is to win a fantasy football league). If the object is to win a Superbowl, then you clearly need to put the bulk of your cap space to use in almost any other area.

Now that being said, any of us, (even me) would have LOVED to have added the talent of Beckham, AB, or even Tate to our roster. But since the NFL hype machine so glorifies WR's the price of those players have risen to the point of ridiculousness, that kind of guy becomes a non-factor in the Patriot's team building process.

Christ I'd be surprised if the ENTIRE superbowl winning Patriot WR corp together cost as much as just ONE of the "elite" WR's in this market.

NOW, that being said, I'm not immune to the chorus of fans who have become frustrated by the distinct LACK of any pizzazz coming out of the initial FA period. I feel the pain too. But it would be wise to think of it as the price we have to pay for being fans of the most consistently successful football franchise in the modern era. March and April it just sucks to be us. No one knows about our FA's. In another month no one (but the draftnks) will know about our draft picks.

What we DO know, is that when Bill puts together whatever talent DOES show up, he will give us a team that will keep us involved for 16+ games and likely compete for a championship.

BTW- I'm tired of hearing from the talking heads CONSTANTLY going on about how only Edelman, Dorsett, and Barrios will catch passes from Brady this year. These are the New England Patriots and our wide receiver corp will be a work in progress, right up until the trade deadline. So I wouldn't go all nuts about what it looks like in March.

I'd remind you to remember back several years ago when it looked like the Pats would have no pass rusher, and well after May the Pats added 2 guys whose names I can't even remember and they combined for 20 sacks (Mark Anderson). And IIRC both were gone the next year.

 

[Steve102]

"But they won" is not a valid defense to "The WRs suck". A does not disprove B.

It kinda is. Their system works. Do the WRs suck today? Yes. Their track record shows that they will figure it out. They don't need to be better on March 15th.

 

[Deus Irae]

It kinda is.

No, it absolutely is not.

 

[Steve102]

This exact sentence needs to be repeated OVER and OVER again until even Felger gets it.

As I have said time and again the WR position is by far the most over rated single position in football. (unless your aim is to win a fantasy football league). If the object is to win a Superbowl, then you clearly need to put the bulk of your cap space to use in almost any other area.

Now that being said, any of us, (even me) would have LOVED to have added the talent of Beckham, AB, or even Tate to our roster. But since the NFL hype machine so glorifies WR's the price of those players have risen to the point of ridiculousness, that kind of guy becomes a non-factor in the Patriot's team building process.

Christ I'd be surprised if the ENTIRE superbowl winning Patriot WR corp together cost as much as just ONE of the "elite" WR's in this market.

NOW, that being said, I'm not immune to the chorus of fans who have become frustrated by the distinct LACK of any pizzazz coming out of the initial FA period. I feel the pain too. But it would be wise to think of it as the price we have to pay for being fans of the most consistently successful football franchise in the modern era. March and April it just sucks to be us. No one knows about our FA's. In another month no one (but the draftnks) will know about our draft picks.

What we DO know, is that when Bill puts together whatever talent DOES show up, he will give us a team that will keep us involved for 16+ games and likely compete for a championship.

BTW- I'm tired of hearing from the talking heads CONSTANTLY going on about how only Edelman, Dorsett, and Barrios will catch passes from Brady this year. These are the New England Patriots and our wide receiver corp will be a work in progress, right up until the trade deadline. So I wouldn't go all nuts about what it looks like in March.

I'd remind you to remember back several years ago when it looked like the Pats would have no pass rusher, and well after May the Pats added 2 guys whose names I can't even remember and they combined for 20 sacks (Mark Anderson). And IIRC both were gone the next year.

This is the best, most well thought out post on the damn WR debate. This should be put on a plaque or something. Nice work, coach. I need a bigger green check mark for this.

No, it absolutely is not.

I defer to Ken. See above.

 

[Deus Irae]

This is the best, most well thought out post on the damn WR debate. This should be put on a plaque or something. Nice work, coach. I need a bigger green check mark for this.


I defer to Ken. See above.

I don't see what Ken writes. However, sports, and team sports particularly, allow for winning even with parts that suck. That means the team overcame the problem. It doesn't mean the problem didn't exist. Tom Brady can't run for ****. No matter how many times he wins the Super Bowl, he'll still be a ****ty runner. Matthew Slater is a ****ty wide receiver, despite having multiple Super Bowl wins.

It's not an either/or situation.

 

[Steve102]

I don't see what Ken writes. However, sports, and team sports particularly, allow for winning even with parts that suck. That means the team overcame the problem. It doesn't mean the problem didn't exist. Tom Brady can't run for ****. No matter how many times he wins the Super Bowl, he'll still be a ****ty runner. Matthew Slater is a ****ty wide receiver, despite having multiple Super Bowl wins.

It's not an either/or situation.

I will be happy if they continue to overcome it. Yes, it is a weak group, save for Jules.

What do you mean Tom runs for chit? He's a 1000 yard rusher!

 

[Patjew]

I’m being redundant but to me it all comes down to Gordon. He is the difference between a good WR group and a terribly below average group (as it stands now).

But that’s in a WR vacuum. Gronk and White change things a lot when considering the overall passing game.

 

[Patjew]

I don't see what Ken writes. However, sports, and team sports particularly, allow for winning even with parts that suck. That means the team overcame the problem. It doesn't mean the problem didn't exist. Tom Brady can't run for ****. No matter how many times he wins the Super Bowl, he'll still be a ****ty runner. Matthew Slater is a ****ty wide receiver, despite having multiple Super Bowl wins.

It's not an either/or situation.

Surprised and saddened to hear you block Ken. I respect both of you guys and like your posts.

 

[patfanken]

I don't see what Ken writes. However, sports, and team sports particularly, allow for winning even with parts that suck. That means the team overcame the problem. It doesn't mean the problem didn't exist. Tom Brady can't run for ****. No matter how many times he wins the Super Bowl, he'll still be a ****ty runner. Matthew Slater is a ****ty wide receiver, despite having multiple Super Bowl wins.

It's not an either/or situation.

C'mon DI you are beating a LONG dead horse here. The point that is being missed here is that while the receivers the Pats will sign will NOT have the talent to equal that of an Beckham or AB, they WILL be VERY talented athletes who will be good ENOUGH. They won't be Julio Jones good, but have a chance to be Givens and Branch good. AND that receiver plan and those "good but not great" WR's have been good enough to create more than a decades worth of top 10 passing attacks, as well as secure 9 superbowl appearances and SIX titles.

And if you are thinking that the Pats still have to address their WR situation, I don't disagree. Think about last season when they added 3 "names" to their WR group (Decker, Britt, and Matthews), everyone was satisfied, and NONE of them made it out of camp . Like I said in an earlier post, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Pats tweeking this position right up until the trade deadline. So WHY be so agitated now?

 

[Triumph]

A Brown and Beckham are nut cases. I would never invest in either of those drama queens. The Steelers already paid AB and it bit them in the rear end. Humpries turned the Pats down after they offered him more money. Emaunuel Sanders turned the Pats down years ago.Golden Tate? Who knows what happened with him.

In NE, staffing the WR position and the OL are somewhat similar. The Pats dont spend a lot of resources in those areas. Players are interchangeable and typically a blend of decent veterans, draft picks and cast offs that are developed like Dorsett and Trent Brown.

Randy Moss was the best WR that Brady ever had. Branch and Givens were good but not great players.

Ive been ready for WRs drafted by the Pats, paid on rookie deals that can actually go out there and play.