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2021 Patriots Season:
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Sep 12th

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Mack Herron

Pro Bowl Player
That said. Watching video of Ronnie Perkins, i think there’s reason to believe he might be the rare 250 lbs guy who, because of his reach and upper body strength, might be able to hold his own against a “fatty” Olineman.
Eventually perhaps. Hard to jump into this D. If he can step up, KVN could move inside like Bruschi.
 

jimnance

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As a person who at one point in life weighed 3 bills, a “fatty” is anyone around 300 lbs or more. I don’t think it’s necessary to have an ultra-fatty 330 pounder play nose tackle. We think that because of Washington and Wilfork, but Seymour or Warren, I believe, could have adequately played the nose at 310. They could have played it better than Danny Shelton did at 340.
Seymour DID play some nt and he was excellent. One of the most versatile dl Ive seen. So ya, the right guy can be good at nt around 310. And he played below that most of his time with Pats. Weight alone means nothing.
 

One-If-By-Sea

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
In this context, I suspect that 3 players at 308 or more is fine. I have been guilty of wanting to field 3 fatties., including a true NT (320+).

Currently, we have Godchaux (310) and Adams (308), not exactly a stout middle. We will depend on Guy (300). I would keep Adams as a backup to Godchaux.

Maybe I am misunderstanding. If you have three fatties in the middle and Judon, Winovich, Perkins, etc., playing the two DE positions, that is a 5 man DLine. @BaconGrundleCandy posted our formations from last year above and I repeat them below :
  • 2-4-5: 29.3%
  • 2-3-6: 21.6%
  • 3-3-5: 18.5%
  • 2-2-7: 10.0%
  • 3-2-6: 6.8%
  • 1-3-7: 6.7%
  • 3-4-4: 2.1%
  • 2-5-4: 1.6%
  • 1-4-6: 1.1%
  • 3-1-7: 0.6%
  • 4-4-3: 0.5%
  • 4-3-4: 0.5%
  • 3-5-3: 0.4%
  • 4-2-5: 0.1%
  • 1-2-8: 0.1%

There are no 5 man DLine fronts. Maybe you could explain how these three fatties fit in one of the formations above?
 

mgteich

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Maybe I am misunderstanding. If you have three fatties in the middle and Judon, Winovich, Perkins, etc., playing the two DE positions, that is a 5 man DLine. @BaconGrundleCandy posted our formations from last year above and I repeat them below :


There are no 5 man DLine fronts. Maybe you could explain how these three fatties fit in one of the formations above?
I mispoke. I have said in the past that we should have 3-4 fatties on the team. We have come to trying to stop the run without even one player who can really plug up the middle.
===============
AM I JUST OLD FASHIONED?
Does the modern defense really have no players heavier than 310 or 308, our two heaviest DL's?
I picked a couple of traditionally good defenses to check.

I wasn't shocked to find that ALL the teams I checked had at least 2 players heavier than any patriot DL. The weights were
BALT 335 and 334
BUF 323 and 311
SF 326, 324, and 319
CAR 332 and 326

Perhaps, I am not so far off wanting one block the sun player and a backup.
 
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One-If-By-Sea

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
I mispoke. I have said in the past that we should have 3-4 fatties on the team. We have come to trying to stop the run without even one player who can really plug up the middle.

Yes I think we will have 3 or 4 fatties (@captain stone thinks otherwise :)) so we will have a defensive "fatties" rotation with 1 or 2 on the field except in goal line formations. I agree with @captain stone that the better your fattie is, the stouter the run blocking up the middle will be, but we can not have All-Pros in every position, so I think we will have a cost-effective or a value fatties rotation :rofl: - Guy, Godchaux, Adams, Davis, Barmore or Wise.
 

Thelonious

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Fine, I suppose, that Cam is such a great "leader" (sort of like that blabby fat chick in middle school who's at the center of every lunchroom conversation at the girls' table.)

Unfortunately, he is no longer able to PLAY the game. Let's get serious, shall we?

We have at least two (somewhat?) promising young qb's. It is time to move on to them. Aside from his knack for stumbling into the end zone from time to time, Cam offers nothing at this point which they cannot already match.
 

captain stone

Hall of Fame Poster
Yes I think we will have 3 or 4 fatties (@captain stone thinks otherwise :)) so we will have a defensive "fatties" rotation with 1 or 2 on the field except in goal line formations. I agree with @captain stone that the better your fattie is, the stouter the run blocking up the middle will be, but we can not have All-Pros in every position, so I think we will have a cost-effective or a value fatties rotation :rofl: - Guy, Godchaux, Adams, Davis, Barmore or Wise.

Only Davis qualifies as a "fattie" from the list above, but he's an unreliable under-achiever; Guy & Godsmack are 315, tops; Barmore is less than that; Adams is barely over 300; and Wise isn't even a DT, so...
 

DaBruinz

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In this context, I suspect that 3 players at 308 or more is fine. I have been guilty of wanting to field 3 fatties., including a true NT (320+).

Currently, we have Godchaux (310) and Adams (308), not exactly a stout middle. We will depend on Guy (300). I would keep Adams as a backup to Godchaux.

Barmore played all along the D-Line, including NT. He was excellent as a NT for Alabama despite not being a true "FATTIE" .

Had Captain Stone actually WATCHED Godchaux last year, he'd know that Godchaux plays the 0-Tech very well for a guy who is just 311.
 

mgteich

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Yes I think we will have 3 or 4 fatties (@captain stone thinks otherwise :)) so we will have a defensive "fatties" rotation with 1 or 2 on the field except in goal line formations. I agree with @captain stone that the better your fattie is, the stouter the run blocking up the middle will be, but we can not have All-Pros in every position, so I think we will have a cost-effective or a value fatties rotation :rofl: - Guy, Godchaux, Adams, Davis, Barmore or Wise.
You've simply chose you own definition. In no football world (but yours) are players like Barmore and Wise thought of as fatties.

You seems to define anyone who plays DT as a fattie.

For you, folks who are 290-310 are huge run defenders. Others have a different approach.

Yes, of course, you have every right to consider our players in the same way as the DT's in BALT who weigh 334 and 335. But our players aren't fatties.
 

mgteich

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Yes I think we will have 3 or 4 fatties (@captain stone thinks otherwise :)) so we will have a defensive "fatties" rotation with 1 or 2 on the field except in goal line formations. I agree with @captain stone that the better your fattie is, the stouter the run blocking up the middle will be, but we can not have All-Pros in every position, so I think we will have a cost-effective or a value fatties rotation :rofl: - Guy, Godchaux, Adams, Davis, Barmore or Wise.
We were very special against the run in 2020. We were #7. Only six teams allowed more rushing yards.

Perhaps it would help if we had one or two players weighing 315-335 in the middle, at least in some formations. Size isn't everything. It is simply more difficult to move an extra 50 pounds (2 players).
 

DaBruinz

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Seymour DID play some nt and he was excellent. One of the most versatile dl Ive seen. So ya, the right guy can be good at nt around 310. And he played below that most of his time with Pats. Weight alone means nothing.
Actually, Seymour wasn't very good at the NT position.. It's why they went out and got Ted Washington after the 2002 season.
 

Kenneth Sims

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Maybe I am misunderstanding. If you have three fatties in the middle and Judon, Winovich, Perkins, etc., playing the two DE positions, that is a 5 man DLine. @BaconGrundleCandy posted our formations from last year above and I repeat them below :


There are no 5 man DLine fronts. Maybe you could explain how these three fatties fit in one of the formations above?
The classic 3-4 had 5 players aligned on the line of scrimmage with the 3 Dlinemen and the 2 OLBs. Think McGiniest and Vrabel who most of the time were aligned to the immediate left or right of the DE.

The Pats played a good amount of 5 man front down the stretch in 2018 and were very successful at it. Trey Flowers was not a 300 lb guy, but he played bigger and was at his best matched up against Guards. Their usage of it was touted by some analysts in neutralizing the Rams’ outside zone runs in the Super Bowl. The further apart the edge defenders are the longer the journey to the outside is plus the angle is better for the edge defender. That’s why the 3-4 was introduced into the NFL back in the 70s - to better defend the sweeps and outside runs so prevalent in those days.

The NFL is a passing league now, so you need to have as many DBs on the field that you can to cover everyone. The Patriots play an overwhelming majority of plays with 5 or 6 DBs on the field which limits you to 6 or 5 man fronts. Those front players fall into 3 categories: interior Dlinemen, Edge defenders and LineBACKERS.

Basically, all I’m saying is I’d rather on early downs predominately have in the box 3 DTs, 2 edge players , and one off the line backer with a safety aligned next to him than have 2 DTs, 2 edge Defenders and 2 linebackers plus the safety. IMHO it gives you more brawn to defend the run and also challenge the guards and center to pass block 2 to 3 players as big and often more athletic than they are on early passing downs.

The Patriots have run a lot more 2-2-2 than 3-2-1 over the last couple of seasons. It will be interesting to see if that’s the prevalent philosophy or whether it was driven by personnel. I’m thinking it was personnel after Pennel flamed out in 2019 and Beau Allen got hurt last season. With the investment they’ve made in improving the quality and depth of their DLine position, I think we’ll see more of them on the field during early downs.
 

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