Why such a hateful backlash against Brady? [merged: Shaugnessy article]

[Fencer]

Re: Why such a hateful backlash against Brady?

The truth is simple, and should be obvious to anyone with working eyes: men and women are, in fact, different, both in what you can see (body) and in what you can't (brain.). Science has verified this to the point where even a very liberal news publication like Time Magazine has accepted it. Noting that, and realizing that it has consequences, doesn't make one a "sexist" in the pejorative form of the term.

Quite right. One isn't a bigot simply because one states that there are differences. Rather, one is a bigot when one makes incorrect and insulting comments that somehow relate to group differences.

It's funny that you mention Time Magazine, because my wife was quoted in Time Magazine on a kind of "what women want" subject, in a way that could superficially be read as supporting your bigotry. Specifically, they used a quote from Amazon.com: Dangerous Men and Adventurous Women: Romance Writers on the Appeal of the Romance (New Cultural Studies Series): Jayne Ann Krentz: Books

I quote that indirect credential to show that I have some household expertise as to what women are looking for in "alpha males". And -- well, it's consistent with what real live women have said in this thread, and inconsistent with what you have said. Women generally want men who CAN be tough guys, but who ALSO are willing to be gentle.

You and Shaughnessy are wrong on another level too. Go as deep into stereotypes as you want, and where do you end up? That's right -- with women taking care of men's physical needs. Feeding a man fits right into that ...

The reason I find your and Shaughnessy's viewpoint offensive is that I don't see how one can make your error if one believes that it's a good thing for men to be respectful of women. Personally, I'd much rather dominate somebody I respect than somebody I don't ... and yes, I speak from considerable experience on both sides of that. Similarly, I recall Brady quotes about his admiration for Gisele's character, professional achievements, etc. I don't recall any about his admiration for, say, her legs or boobs. And that's quite as it should be. The latter are visible w/o verbal comment anyway. It's the former that set her aside from, say, Tara Reid.

Also, "the outcry about the failed joke" is just the excuse du jour. This site, like many others, lives for pummeling the journalists. From Mortensen, to King, to anyone else who's ever spoken or written even the mildest of negative commentary about the Patriots, the savaging here needs little urging and even less reasonable justification.

As your post illustrates....

That's equally sloppy thinking as may be found in the rest of what could laughably be called your "argument."

I defy you to find examples in my posts here or KFFL supporting that theory.

 

[Patsrock]

Re: Why such a hateful backlash against Brady?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Irae

Also, "the outcry about the failed joke" is just the excuse du jour. This site, like many others, lives for pummeling the journalists. From Mortensen, to King, to anyone else who's ever spoken or written even the mildest of negative commentary about the Patriots, the savaging here needs little urging and even less reasonable justification.

That's equally sloppy thinking as may be found in the rest of what could laughably be called your "argument."

I defy you to find examples in my posts here or KFFL supporting that theory.

This is not a sloppy arguement, he is not directly saying you do it. But come on every time I read an article concerning the Patriots and it is negative. It is always posted here within minutes and other places saying how crappy that writer is.

 

[ScottieC]

Re: Why such a hateful backlash against Brady?

Quote:






This is not a sloppy arguement, he is not directly saying you do it. But come on every time I read an article concerning the Patriots and it is negative. It is always posted here within minutes and other places saying how crappy that writer is.

The other side of that would be that most find their way to a Colts, Chargers or Jets message board and they talk about how brilliant the writer is.

It's just not that hard of a thing to figure out.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Why such a hateful backlash against Brady?

The fact that Bostonians are starting to turn on Brady is about the most idiotic thing I've ever seen. I'm ashamed to be a fan of the same team as these people. I'd almost say that they'll deserve it when they get stuck with some stiff at QB down the road, but they'll all be off the bandwagon by then anyways.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Why such a hateful backlash against Brady?

Quite right One isn't a bigot simply because one states that there are differences. Rather, one is a bigot when one makes incorrect and insulting comments that somehow relate to group differences.

It's funny that you mention Time Magazine, because my wife was quoted in Time Magazine on a kind of "what women want" subject, in a way that could superficially be read as supporting your bigotry. Specifically, they used a quote from Amazon.com: Dangerous Men and Adventurous Women: Romance Writers on the Appeal of the Romance (New Cultural Studies Series): Jayne Ann Krentz: Books

I quote that indirect credential to show that I have some household expertise as to what women are looking for in "alpha males". And -- well, it's consistent with what real live women have said in this thread, and inconsistent with what you have said. Women generally want men who CAN be tough guys, but who ALSO are willing to be gentle.

You and Shaughnessy are wrong on another level too. Go as deep into stereotypes as you want, and where do you end up? That's right -- with women taking care of men's physical needs. Feeding a man fits right into that ...

The reason I find your and Shaughnessy's viewpoint offensive is that I don't see how one can make your error if one believes that it's a good thing for men to be respectful of women. Personally, I'd much rather dominate somebody I respect than somebody I don't ... and yes, I speak from considerable experience on both sides of that. Similarly, I recall Brady quotes about his admiration for Gisele's character, professional achievements, etc. I don't recall any about his admiration for, say, her legs or boobs. And that's quite as it should be. The latter are visible w/o verbal comment anyway. It's the former that set her aside from, say, Tara Reid.

1.) I don't recall giving my viewpoint on the sexes. I do recall noting that there are differences and that metrosexuals arent considered the manliest of men. Neither statement is my 'viewpoint'. Rather, both statements were statements of fact given without opinion. As for the "Macho/Butch" aspects, "Macho" is about hypermasculinity, not sexism. Any sexism involved would be merely a subset of the whole.

1.) For the purposes of this discussion, I really don't care what you think of my viewpoint regarding stereotypes either. This is the sports section of a sports message board, and I wasn't giving my viewpoint on either sex differences OR stereotypes.

3.) While I might, or might not, love to discuss your views what women claim they want versus what women show they want by their actions, it's not appropriate for this part of the board. Neither is your view on how stereotypes work, why they exist, how accurate or inaccurate they can be, how hurtful or helpful they can be, or anything else about them.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

the biggest mistake anyone could make is confusing male aesthetics with masculinity......and it seems most sportwriters are confused about both

 

[Fencer]

Re: Why such a hateful backlash against Brady?

This is not a sloppy arguement, he is not directly saying you do it.

His use of the phrase "as your post illustrates" suggests otherwise.

 

[Fencer]

Re: Why such a hateful backlash against Brady?

1.) I don't recall giving my viewpoint on the sexes. I do recall noting that there are differences and that metrosexuals arent considered the manliest of men. Neither statement is my 'viewpoint'. Rather, both statements were statements of fact given without opinion.

People who emphatically call attention to differences between groups -- especially on message boards where such differences are irrelevant to the primarily topics of conversation -- are commonly idiotic bigots, and often are correctly regarded as such. That's a statement of fact.

You may or may not be an example of this.

It would be inappropriate for you to take umbrage at my pointing that out.

 

[Fencer]

the biggest mistake anyone could make is confusing male aesthetics with masculinity......and it seems most sportwriters are confused about both

Well, to be quite literal, I can think of a number of bigger mistakes than that.

But basically you're quite right.

 

[BradyFTW!]

The big problem with Shaughnessy is that he's such a nutjob hack with a bizarre vendetta against popular sports figures that you have to actually consider the possibility that this article isn't satire.

 

[Fencer]

The big problem with Shaughnessy is that he's such a nutjob hack with a bizarre vendetta against popular sports figures that you have to actually consider the possibility that this article isn't satire.

I took at as "humorous" exaggeration of something he really feels.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Why such a hateful backlash against Brady?

People who emphatically call attention to differences between groups -- especially on message boards where such differences are irrelevant to the primarily topics of conversation -- are commonly idiotic bigots, and often are correctly regarded as such. That's a statement of fact.

No, that's opinion. Of course, the irony in your retort is that the people who began bringing up the issue were coming from the other side and talking about how they were offended. The argument put forth was that the column was sexist. Noting that there are, in fact, very real differences between the sexes, therefore, is clearly relevant and has nothing to do with bigotry, hatred, nuclear weapons, the price of tea in China or the outcome of today's tennis matches down under. Responding by noting the obvious is neither idiotic nor bigoted.

 

[Fencer]

Re: Why such a hateful backlash against Brady?

No, that's opinion.

It's an obvious and empirical fact.

However, my mention of that fact clearly implied an opinion, specifically the opinion that the fact was in some way relevant to the conversation.

Similarly, you mentioned a couple of obvious facts, and in so doing implied the opinion that the facts were relevant to this thread.

You also mixed in some very questionable opinions that you mislabeled as "facts", but that's a different matter ...

I'm sorry that you're so threatened by the idea that Tom Brady's notion of masculinity is a little different than yours, or that one of the more desirable women in the world clearly prefers his version. But it is what it is. I suggest you somehow find a way to deal with it.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Why such a hateful backlash against Brady?

It's an obvious and empirical fact.

However, my mention of that fact clearly implied an opinion, specifically the opinion that the fact was in some way relevant to the conversation.

Similarly, you mentioned a couple of obvious facts, and in so doing implied the opinion that the facts were relevant to this thread.

You also mixed in some very questionable opinions that you mislabeled as "facts", but that's a different matter ...

I'm sorry that you're so threatened by the idea that Tom Brady's notion of masculinity is a little different than yours, or that one of the more desirable women in the world clearly prefers his version. But it is what it is. I suggest you somehow find a way to deal with it.

1.) You don't seem to know the difference between opinion and fact.

2.) You don't seem to realize that I didn't comment about Brady directly in terms of his manliness.

3.) Men and women do have differences both, both seen and unseen. Metrosexuals are not considered the most manly of men. That's pretty much all I wrote on the subject.

4.) You have no idea what my version of masculinity is. However, I can tell you that I don't feel threatened by anything about Brady, including what you're claiming to be his "notion of masculinity".

5.) I suggest that you stop being so hypersensitive about issues on a sports board that you lose the ability to comprehend what you're reading.

 

[Fencer]

Re: Why such a hateful backlash against Brady?

1.) You don't seem to know the difference between opinion and fact.

2.) You don't seem to realize that I didn't comment about Brady directly in terms of his manliness.

3.) Men and women do have differences both, both seen and unseen. Metrosexuals are not considered the most manly of men. That's pretty much all I wrote on the subject.

4.) You have no idea what my version of masculinity is. However, I can tell you that I don't feel threatened by anything about Brady, including what you're claiming to be his "notion of masculinity".

5.) I suggest that you stop being so hypersensitive about issues on a sports board that you lose the ability to comprehend what you're reading.

I'm glad to see that you're running away and hiding from your prior nonsense. Good job. That was kind of my point in calling you out. Have a nice day!

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Why such a hateful backlash against Brady?

No, that's opinion. Of course, the irony in your retort is that the people who began bringing up the issue were coming from the other side and talking about how they were offended. The argument put forth was that the column was sexist. Noting that there are, in fact, very real differences between the sexes, therefore, is clearly relevant and has nothing to do with bigotry, hatred, nuclear weapons, the price of tea in China or the outcome of today's tennis matches down under. Responding by noting the obvious is neither idiotic nor bigoted.

That's no more opinion than your opinion that being metro is considered non-masculine. Claiming your opinion as a universal objective with no explanation will get you equally as far as just saying "I know you are but what am I?" over and over again.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Why such a hateful backlash against Brady?

That's no more opinion than your opinion that being metro is considered non-masculine. Claiming your opinion as a universal objective with no explanation will get you equally as far as just saying "I know you are but what am I?" over and over again.

I didn't claim that being metro is non-masculine, just that it's not considered the height of maleness:

It's why "metrosexual" isn't considered the height of maleness.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/211612-why-such-hateful-backlash-against-brady-merged-shaugnessy-article-page3.html#post1266262

Are you claiming that being metrosexual is considered the height of maleness by any significant portion of the population?

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Why such a hateful backlash against Brady?

I'm glad to see that you're running away and hiding from your prior nonsense. Good job. That was kind of my point in calling you out. Have a nice day!

I didn't run away from anything. You just didn't bother to actually read what I'd posted, apparently.

 

[Fencer]

Re: Why such a hateful backlash against Brady?

You just didn't bother to actually read what I'd posted

Sadly, I did.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

hey......I thought it was my job to argue with him