Why has Welker not been extended?

[Huckleberry1]

Only a drooling fantasy football idiot would think Welker has been the most productive wideout in football the last four years.

Then you should know it.

 

[Shelterdog]

Samuel was franchised, Seymour was traded, and Moss was re-signed. You really have no list and your SOP claim is BS. you apparently know nothing about the team or you would have know this.

If the Patriots franchise Welker and can't reach a deal then i'll be fine with that effort, it's certainly a hell of alot smarter than letting him walk as you would clearly like to see happen

True or false: the Pats let Samuel and Moss hit the open market.

Thank you goodnight.

 

[Huckleberry1]

True or false: the Pats let Samuel and Moss hit the open market.

Thank you goodnight.

They franchised Samuel, they re-signed Moss, and if they do either with Welker i'm fine with that.

Still waiting for that SOP list you can't produce, sleep on it, you will need it.

 

[Patsrock]

True or false: the Pats let Samuel and Moss hit the open market.

Thank you goodnight.

They let Samuel hit the open market AFTER they had agreed not to franchise him a 2nd time.

 

[Huckleberry1]

They let Samuel hit the open market AFTER they had agreed not to franchise him a 2nd time.

And don't forget Jr. Seau, T. Bruschi, T. Brown, S. Neal, R. Harrison etc, they let all of them retire, and thast means they can get a job anywhere, that's really hitting the open market. Its SOP don't you know.

 

[Shelterdog]

And don't forget Jr. Seau, T. Bruschi, T. Brown, S. Neal, R. Harrison etc, they let all of them retire, and thast means they can get a job anywhere, that's really hitting the open market. Its SOP don't you know.

And don't forget Matt Light, Stephen Neal, Leigh Bodden, Ben Watson, James Sanders, Randy Moss, Daniel Graham, TBC, Randal Gay, Eugene Wilson, Stallworth, Gaffney, Mike Wright, Heath Evans, Larry Izo and a whole bunch of others who were all allowed to test free agency.

Wilfork, Samuel and Mankins all played out their deals before getting tagged and re-signed.

SOP. Players play out their contracts and get tagged or allowed to test the market depending on whether they're good enough to get tagged.

 

[Ring 6]

Slot receivers are relatively easy to find, Welker's the best at it but he's still a slot receiver, the guys who are making the big money are the ones who are NOT easily replaced, who can give you what Adnre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald can on the field?

Any position is easy to find if your standard is mediocrity.
We are a passing team, and Welker is our leading receiver.
Including a knee injury that was supposed to sideline him a year, he has caught more passes than anyone in the NFL in the lat 4 years. Even though while recupperating from that injury his reception total dropped by 30 catches under his 3 year healthy average he is still 35 catches ahead of #2 over the last 4 years, and there are only 5 WRs in the entire NFL that were within 100 catches of his total. Think about that and tell me his replacement is easy to find.
Label him 'slot receiver' if you wish, but considering that to be all he is would be quite ignorant.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Any position is easy to find if your standard is mediocrity.
We are a passing team, and Welker is our leading receiver.
Including a knee injury that was supposed to sideline him a year, he has caught more passes than anyone in the NFL in the lat 4 years. Even though while recupperating from that injury his reception total dropped by 30 catches under his 3 year healthy average he is still 35 catches ahead of #2 over the last 4 years, and there are only 5 WRs in the entire NFL that were within 100 catches of his total. Think about that and tell me his replacement is easy to find.
Label him 'slot receiver' if you wish, but considering that to be all he is would be quite ignorant.

Point #1 - Some positions are more difficult to fill that others.

Point #2 - Replacing someone like Welker is an easier task than replacing Fitzgerald or Johnson

If you don't believe those 2 points let me know and we'll set up some time to talk about beachfront property in Arizona I have for sale.

 

[Huckleberry1]

And don't forget Matt Light, Stephen Neal, Leigh Bodden, Ben Watson, James Sanders, Randy Moss, Daniel Graham, TBC, Randal Gay, Eugene Wilson, Stallworth, Gaffney, Mike Wright, Heath Evans, Larry Izo and a whole bunch of others who were all allowed to test free agency.

Wilfork, Samuel and Mankins all played out their deals before getting tagged and re-signed.

SOP. Players play out their contracts and get tagged or allowed to test the market depending on whether they're good enough to get tagged.

They don't allow their key players to just go free and that's clear by your need to use tagged players and mediocre players as examples. Welker isn't TBC or Eugene Wilson or Heath Evans etc.. and the fact you have to use average players as your examples shows just how weak your case is. welker is a great player not an average player and trying to lump him in with Ben Watson.
Tagging players and resigning them for big money is not letting them go free and allowing Heath Evans and Mike Wright to reach free agency is a far cry from allowing Tom Brady, Logan mankins, or Wes welker to go to free agency.

Weak sauce, you have no argument, and the fact you lump Welker in with Larry Izzo and Randall gay shows you really know very little about football or how the Patriots operate.


It's like saying the Cards would just let Larry Fitzgerald go because it's their SOP, and Matt Leinart proves it. Lame.

 

[Ring 6]

Point #1 - Some positions are more difficult to fill that others.

Not really, unless you have lower standards for some positions.

Point #2 - Replacing someone like Welker is an easier task than replacing Fitzgerald or Johnson

Why? I bet the average #1 outside receiver produces closer to those guys than the average 'possession receiver' produces compared to Welker.

If you don't believe those 2 points let me know and we'll set up some time to talk about beachfront property in Arizona I have for sale.

There isn't beachfront in Arizona, so you have yet to make a valid point here/

 

[Ring 6]

They don't allow their key players to just go free and that's clear by your need to use tagged players and mediocre players as examples. Welker isn't TBC or Eugene Wilson or Heath Evans etc.. and the fact you have to use average players as your examples shows just how weak your case is. welker is a great player not an average player and trying to lump him in with Ben Watson.
Tagging players and resigning them for big money is not letting them go free and allowing Heath Evans and Mike Wright to reach free agency is a far cry from allowing Tom Brady, Logan mankins, or Wes welker to go to free agency.

Weak sauce, you have no argument, and the fact you lump Welker in with Larry Izzo and Randall gay shows you really know very little about football or how the Patriots operate.


It's like saying the Cards would just let Larry Fitzgerald go because it's their SOP, and Matt Leinart proves it. Lame.

Every player is different.

What both ides of this argument seem to be missing is that the Patriots have legitimately tried to keep every good player. The ones who wouldn't agree to what the team felt was fair value were allowed to move on.

Transaction histories do not prove the Patriots like to let players ply out contracts, or that they want to lock them all up. Each case is different. If the value the team places on the player translates to an acceptable contract, he stays, if not he goes. There is no plan to wait and see either. An early extension (which we do quite often comparatively) probably factors that into the price, but there is no patterned effort to wait until after the contract is up to determine a value.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Every player is different.
What both ides of this argument seem to be missing is that the Patriots have legitimately tried to keep every good player. The ones who wouldn't agree to what the team felt was fair value were allowed to move on.
Transaction histories do not prove the Patriots like to let players ply out contracts, or that they want to lock them all up. Each case is different. If the value the team places on the player translates to an acceptable contract, he stays, if not he goes. There is no plan to wait and see either. An early extension (which we do quite often comparatively) probably factors that into the price, but there is no patterned effort to wait until after the contract is up to determine a value.

I'm not missing that at all, nor do I think that the Patriots would pay Welker as though he were Andre Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald. I think the Patriots understand the value Welker brings to their team and will make him a decent offer, probably in the four year 24 million range but not likely to be much more. If Welker is amenable to this i think they will get it done, however if he wants to be paid 50 million he will walk, i just don't think he will be demanding that and his comments support that view.

The Patriots have a very good understanding where there players are at in their careers and what they can bring down the road and they try to make good deals with those they believe will be good players for them going forward, and they don't just let every player they are in conflict with go to free agency as SOP. they have used the franchise tag with regularity and will continue to do so when they think they need it, that won't be the case with Welker

 

[kcusstap]

Coming from a Jets fan point of view Welker always seems to be wide open and seems to have a lot left in the tank. The pats should extend him for two more years, he knows the system and has great chemistry with Brady.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not missing that at all, nor do I think that the Patriots would pay Welker as though he were Andre Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald. I think the Patriots understand the value Welker brings to their team and will make him a decent offer, probably in the four year 24 million range but not likely to be much more. If Welker is amenable to this i think they will get it done, however if he wants to be paid 50 million he will walk, i just don't think he will be demanding that and his comments support that view.

The Patriots have a very good understanding where there players are at in their careers and what they can bring down the road and they try to make good deals with those they believe will be good players for them going forward, and they don't just let every player they are in conflict with go to free agency as SOP. they have used the franchise tag with regularity and will continue to do so when they think they need it, that won't be the case with Welker

My point is that arguing over what the Pats did with past players is irrelevant, becuase its about more than the player, and you can refute every example with an opposite one.
I imagine its truly in the players hands, because the good players will be offered contracts. The ones that accept stay. It really has to do with nothing more than that.

 

[Huckleberry1]

My point is that arguing over what the Pats did with past players is irrelevant, becuase its about more than the player, and you can refute every example with an opposite one.
I imagine its truly in the players hands, because the good players will be offered contracts. The ones that accept stay. It really has to do with nothing more than that.

It is impossible to contest the notion that it is "SOP" without discussing the recent past history, as that is what SOP is referencing. If anything the patriots do everything in their power to keep the players they feel they will have a difficult time replacing, and their use of tags and paying top money to Dillon, Moss, Brady, Mankins etc.. proves that imo. Welker is a key player for this team and they will do their best to keep him here in my opinion, they don't undervalue him, as some here clearly do.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

You forgot Samuel who they didn't resign and who hit free agency and left in 2008. Oh and Randy Moss who they let hit free agency in 2008. It sure looks like they would have let Seymour hit free agency in 2009 but they traded him first.

You don't know much about the team do you?

I think you're the one who doesn't know much about the team. They had moved on from Asante after 2007 after trying to sign him to a reasonable deal for his skillset for 2 seasons. They didn't lose him to FA. They chose not to compete for him at all because some fool was going to overpay him for INTS. Randy was not tagged for a reason. Belichick and Kraft wanted to make sure he was re-upping of his own free will and still down with toeing the team line. They made him an offer - one I thought was a stretch - and he ultimately took it. Unfortunately it didn't pan out. They would have let Seymour hit FA in 2009 because they were disappointed in him on multiple levels dating back 3 seasons... They knew he wanted top dollar and frankly they didn't think he was worth it because he hadn't been worth it for the last 3 years he was here.

They let Givens walk reluctantly because they were hogtied over Branch and what an early offer to Givens would do to efforts to retain Branch. They let Adam go because they didn't want to commit long term to him on top tier terms. And they were right, because aside from his first year in Indy he hasn't been worth what Polian paid for him long term. He didn't let Willie go, he cut him...and he was right to. Ditto Law whom we could have used at a reasonable price, which they tried to offer him before they cut him and several times afterward to no avail... They've locked up several players early including Koppen and Light (who likely would have been gone this season if not for the lockout) and Warren and Brady three times now...the kicker is they insist on extensions that both discount top tier and retain the remaining years on their existing deal. Lots of players have agents who discourage them from taking those deals.

Wilfork had to wait because of the difficulty in structuring extensions under an expiring CBA. Mankins had to wait for the same reason and because they knew they had the RFA tender and wanted to use it as part of a deal... They only let guys test the market if they don't believe they are worth a market deal... They are usually right on those guys. If guys are highly productive and amenable to taking early signing discounts and it suits their financial plans to lock them up early they do that. If Welker hadn't torn his ACL on the eve of the last year of the CBA he probably would have been extended sometime in 2010. As would Brady have been in 2009 had he not missed all of 2008.

Letting a guy like Welker test his market would be akin to bidding against yourself. They've still got plenty of time to get a deal done with Welker before this season is over and I expect both parties are well aware of that even if some posters here aren't.

 

[Shelterdog]

If guys are highly productive and amenable to taking early signing discounts and it suits their financial plans to lock them up early they do that.

Sure, although they haven't done that much with older players or players on Pats-friendly contracts (they've made almost every draft pick play out his rookie deal, for example).

It's certainly not written in stone that they never extend guys nor did I make that claim. I simply said that the Pats aren't afraid at all to expose a good player to free agency. They do it all the time and I don't see how this is controversial.

With Welker I'm sure there's a number NE would agree to before the season ends but it's likely to be really low (3/12 in new money to make a 4/15 total contract or something in that ballpark). I suspect they don't get a deal like that done and instead let him play out his now ridiculously team-friendly contract and offer him a reasonable contract if he's been healthy and productive.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Not really, unless you have lower standards for some positions.

There's this supply/demand thing, the guys that make the big bucks have knowledge/skills/abilities don't.

Why? I bet the average #1 outside receiver produces closer to those guys than the average 'possession receiver' produces compared to Welker.

Oh, so you want to measure just on yards now? I think your fantasy football worldview is getting in the way. It's the impact that's key, and those guys can do more to advance an offense than Welker can. Did it occur to you that Welker got all those catches BECAUSE Brady didnt have a good outside option? Give him a better guy to work the outside zones and Welker gets less catches, that doesnt mean that Welker's worse, only that his relative importance to the offense has decreased, that would also mean getting someone else in the slot role who's not as good would have less impact on the offense.

There isn't beachfront in Arizona, so you have yet to make a valid point here/

Oh, I bet you can convince yourself there is beachfront property there it it'll make you feel superior to others. Also, Price stilled looked better last week than Tate did last year, just like I called. Tate's a stiff.

 

[Ron Sellers]

Coming from a Jets fan point of view Welker always seems to be wide open and seems to have a lot left in the tank. The pats should extend him for two more years, he knows the system and has great chemistry with Brady.

Sadly those two sentences may actually be one of the most reasonable, even-keeled and perceptive comments in this entire thread.

 

[Ring 6]

There's this supply/demand thing, the guys that make the big bucks have knowledge/skills/abilities don't.

That really isn't relevant to the discussion. We weren't talking about money, we were talking about how difficult it is to fill a position, that was your comment at least. If you want the best at any position it is as difficult to fill as others.
I think the point you were trying to make is some positions are more important than others, ie the money reference, but i don't want to put words in your mouth.

Oh, so you want to measure just on yards now? I think your fantasy football worldview is getting in the way.

No, I said PRODUCTION. That is the things that you do a football field that help your team win.

It's the impact that's key, and those guys can do more to advance an offense than Welker can. Did it occur to you that Welker got all those catches BECAUSE Brady didnt have a good outside option?

You mean like Moss who was one of the best in the league while Welker was catching many more passes than anyone?
Look, WRs catch passes, and Welker catches more than any of them. That is important, and that is about Welker, not some excuse you want to use to diminish his production.

Give him a better guy to work the outside zones and Welker gets less catches, that doesnt mean that Welker's worse, only that his relative importance to the offense has decreased, that would also mean getting someone else in the slot role who's not as good would have less impact on the offense.

He caught more when Moss was here, your argument fails.

Oh, I bet you can convince yourself there is beachfront property there it it'll make you feel superior to others. Also, Price stilled looked better last week than Tate did last year, just like I called. Tate's a stiff.

yeah, no clue what this is about Tate and Price weren't even part of the conversation.
Let me get this straight though. I give my opinion, then you give yours and essentially say if I disagree with you I am oblivious, and you say that I am trying to sound superior. Good one.