We've definitely got something with this Run D

[Sicilian]

So, there's been a lot of talk this week about how successful the Patriots were running the ball against the Bills. Throughout, it's been mentioned that they took advantage of the Bills playing primarily in the nickel, which made running a little easier.

Looking at the snap counts for our defense on Sunday, we were also playing primarily in the nickel. Hightower played only 9 snaps before getting hurt, and his replacement (Tracy White) only played 8. I think Niko tosses in a couple, but it was essentially four down lineman, mayo and spikes, then five defensive backs. Despite this, we held a pretty good running team to 98 yards on the ground with a 3.6 ypc.

I know I'm not breaking any huge ground with this, but our ability to effectively contain the run while still utilizing primarily a pass D formation is going to be very handy down the road.

 

[Nunchucks]

Ravens really put a hurt on the run defense. Until the Patriots can show that was an anomaly, I am not going to say their run defense is anything spectacular.

 

[Sicilian]

Ravens really put a hurt on the run defense. Until the Patriots can show that was an anomaly, I am not going to say their run defense is anything spectacular.

Ray Rice is one of the best in the league, he does that to a lot of team. But aside from that, we've had three good run D games versus one. So far this year, the Ravens game HAS been the anomaly, not the norm.

 

[Patriots Nation NY]

Ravens really put a hurt on the run defense. Until the Patriots can show that was an anomaly, I am not going to say their run defense is anything spectacular.

what team have you been watching the passed few seasons?

 

[aluminum seats]

what time have you been watching the passed few seasons?

Is this English?

 

[Patriots Nation NY]

Is this English?

relax Francis ... spelling police over here ..

 

[Bhelmet]

The run D was exposed by Baltimore. OK, lets go with that. Ray Rice is a double threat - therefore when he is on the field the Ravens do not tip their hand with a run or pass. I still maintain that the refs had WAY too much an influence in the outcome of that game. On the positive, the D learned MUCH about the Ravens in that game and they will struggle to achieve the same outcome - after all, the Pats outplayed the Ravens. Our D is very fluid, but it is moving in the right direction. They are young, but growing up quickly. Our D is over-performing while the O is under-performing. The O will come along b/c they are veterans - the D will come along b/c of youthful exuberance. Either way, as the season progresses - the Pats are sitting pretty. I will predict right now that the tone changes and this team will be amongst the top when the season closes. Let's see if the team can do the same.

 

[supafly]

Our D is over-performing while the O is under-performing.

I get what you're saying of course, but the offense hasn't come anywhere close to underperforming like some are stating.

They've put up 30+ pts in 3 of 4 games.

They've also put up 30 and 52 in the past 2, both of them minus Hernandez.

I don't think that the offense is exactly in mid-late season form yet, but some of the offense's struggles have been exaggerated nonetheless.

As you said, it's a work in progress, but they have looked pretty good in 3 out of 4 of the games. ARZ played a very good gameplan, and have a tough defense, so it's not shocking that they struggled a bit vs them.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

you have to remember too...our secondary has been getting **** on the past few weeks..why run when you can pass it and complete a high %?

 

[ausbacker]

The run D was exposed by Baltimore. OK, lets go with that. Ray Rice is a double threat - therefore when he is on the field the Ravens do not tip their hand with a run or pass. I still maintain that the refs had WAY too much an influence in the outcome of that game. On the positive, the D learned MUCH about the Ravens in that game and they will struggle to achieve the same outcome - after all, the Pats outplayed the Ravens. Our D is very fluid, but it is moving in the right direction. They are young, but growing up quickly. Our D is over-performing while the O is under-performing. The O will come along b/c they are veterans - the D will come along b/c of youthful exuberance. Either way, as the season progresses - the Pats are sitting pretty. I will predict right now that the tone changes and this team will be amongst the top when the season closes. Let's see if the team can do the same.

The entire DL was being held and big holes were opened for Ray Rice thanks to the replacement officials. The run D is fine.

 

[unoriginal]

I get what you're saying of course, but the offense hasn't come anywhere close to underperforming like some are stating.

They've put up 30+ pts in 3 of 4 games.

They've also put up 30 and 52 in the past 2, both of them minus Hernandez.

I don't think that the offense is exactly in mid-late season form yet, but some of the offense's struggles have been exaggerated nonetheless.

As you said, it's a work in progress, but they have looked pretty good in 3 out of 4 of the games. ARZ played a very good gameplan, and have a tough defense, so it's not shocking that they struggled a bit vs them.

The defense just can't win. Even when they score the points themselves, it gets counted for the offense's benefit.

Take away Hightower's touchdown, and the offense was responsible for 27 points against Tennessee. The defense was -6 points on the day.

Against Arizona, the defense gave up a touchdown after a three-and-out and a blocked punt gave the Cardinals the ball at the 2. That's not on the defense. Defense surrendered -13 points.

Against Baltimore, Gregory put the ball at the Ravens's 6 yard line. That TD had far more to do with the defense than the offense. Offense scored 23 points, defense was -24.

Against Buffalo, the offense giving the Bills the ball at the NE 24 is worth at least three points. McCourty giving the offense the ball at the 12? Worth at least three points. Same with Wilson turning the ball over at the 19. The defense was -19 on the day.

I think most Pats fans here would agree that this offense should score between 24 and 28 points on their own, i.e. without starting a possession on the opponent's two, and anything less would require that Josh McDaniels be put in the public stocks. 24 points would be a ho-hum day, which corresponds roughly with the median league output (~23 points). And this is not a median offense.

Once this offense has performed better than mediocre (Buffalo). Once it has performed poorly (Arizona). And twice it has performed roughly on par. But the defense has been responsible for less than twenty points in three out of four games. I second the idea that the offense has been underperforming and the defense overperforming relative to each other so far this season.

And for clarification, I count it as a gimme touchdown when the ball is turned over inside the 10, and a gimme field goal when the ball is turned over inside the 30. I think that's reasonable.

 

[supafly]

And for clarification, I count it as a gimme touchdown when the ball is turned over inside the 10, and a gimme field goal when the ball is turned over inside the 30. I think that's reasonable.

I think that everything you said is quite reasonable.

To be fair though, I am not taking any side in the "offense vs. defense" debate. I am reasonably impressed with the defense's performance so far, aside from some of the play of the safeties.

I was simply stating that some of the "underperforming" offensive problems/thoughts have been a bit exaggerated in my opinion. I think they ran into a tough defense vs ARZ, lost Hernandez and had to re-adjust.

When they came back vs BAL (another fairly tough defense, especially under the circumstances of SNF + their turf etc) the offense looked much better. That also carried over to the BUF game obviously.

In my opinion, the offense has done its job too. The offensive line has gelled and looked much, much better lately than anyone could have expected. The loss of Hernandez did not slow this offense down too much either. As a whole, the running game has looked much better this season too. The chemistry with Lloyd is taking shape. Welker looks like his old self after a tremendous amount of scrutiny.

I don't think either side of the ball has played up to their potential, but both sides have shown nice flashes and have made improvements on what we imagined coming into the season a month or so ago. At the beginning of Sept. the main offensive questions were:

--How are we going to survive without Brian Waters?

--How is this offensive line possibly going to hold up? There were questions about Solder. There were injury concerns with Vollmer and Mankins. Just about everyone was on Thomas' case, and very few felt that Wendell could actually hold up the point of attack in the middle.

--How will we do with running the ball? What kind of balance will they have? Can the young unproven backs (Ridley, Bolden, Vereen) actually do their jobs effectively?

--Can Edelman ever show progress as an actual receiver?

--Can Llyod and Brady develop the proper chemistry even though they weren't able to do anything at all during pre-season?

These were the main issues/problems on the offensive side of the ball, particularly after the ARZ game. In my opinion, they have done a lot better than some are giving them credit for, especially considering that we lost Waters (I don't think they were totally prepared for his loss until about the 3rd preseason game, if that), Hernandez, Edelman, and Mankins at some point.

If you are looking at a debate over "who" has played better under the circumstances alone, then I would certainly agree with you that I am more impressed with the defense...but that said, I also think the offense has done some very nice things under the circumstances too, and I'm not sure if they are getting their fair share by some using the term "underperformed." They lead the entire NFL in points scored.

Although I really agree with your breakdowns regarding turnovers, field position, etc, and I think those are excellent points, the fact is that the offense still put up 30+ in 3 of 4 games so far, and they seem to be coming into what we expected from them (understanding those are awfully high expectations).

 

[JR4]

I don't get this: "the defense overperforming"
I can't find a definition of the word "overperform".

Dose it mean the defense is performing at a level higher than should be expected?
If so then should we expect it to decline in the weeks to come?
Or will the defense continue to over perform for the rest of the season?

 

[supafly]

I don't get this: "the defense overperforming"
I can't find a definition of the word "overperform".

Dose it mean the defense is performing at a level higher than should be expected?
If so then should we expect it to decline in the weeks to come?
Or will the defense continue to over perform for the rest of the season?

I think we can all be relatively happy with the success thus far of the front seven, the high round rookies of Jones, Hightower, and Wilson, and the improvement of the CB's (although the bar was set pretty low last yr in that regard).

Since the defense was the main worry coming into the season, most are quite happy with the way they've played, aside from the safeties.

I would not expect a "decline" in the coming weeks, but I would think that it's more than reasonable that we'll continue to see some learning curves, and another game or two where they are exploited with exceptional players like Ray Rice (which I don't feel that necessarily equals a step back, just not a rise to the challenge).

As a whole, I think we can begin to feel very comfortable again with the defense in about 6-8 wks or so, barring major injuries and assuming that some of the kinks are worked out.

I don't think they'll be in the ranges of the Texans or 49ers, but I do think that they'll have made significant strides to help keep our team in games a lot more than the past couple of yrs.

 

[unoriginal]

If you are looking at a debate over "who" has played better under the circumstances alone, then I would certainly agree with you that I am more impressed with the defense...but that said, I also think the offense has done some very nice things under the circumstances too, and I'm not sure if they are getting their fair share by some using the term "underperformed." They lead the entire NFL in points scored.

Although I really agree with your breakdowns regarding turnovers, field position, etc, and I think those are excellent points, the fact is that the offense still put up 30+ in 3 of 4 games so far, and they seem to be coming into what we expected from them (understanding those are awfully high expectations).

Yes, we are basically in agreement. And I certainly agree with you that there are legitimate reasons why the offense has sputtered at times.

But "the offense stll put up 30+ in 3 games" is a factually incorrect statement. Hightower scored a touchdown against Tennessee. That's a defensive score. The offense only scored 27.

I have the same problem when people say the defense gave up 21 points to the Giants in the Super Bowl. They literally only gave up 19 points.

My larger point, which I admit is a matter of interpretation, although we both largely agree on it, is that the defense has been putting the offense in position to succeed more than the other way around so far.

 

[Sicilian]

you have to remember too...our secondary has been getting **** on the past few weeks..why run when you can pass it and complete a high %?

Buffalo still ran a fair amount (27 times I think) and only averaged 3.6. A preference for passing on us doesn't mean the YPC means less.

 

[ivanvamp]

I get what you're saying of course, but the offense hasn't come anywhere close to underperforming like some are stating.

They've put up 30+ pts in 3 of 4 games.

They've also put up 30 and 52 in the past 2, both of them minus Hernandez.

I don't think that the offense is exactly in mid-late season form yet, but some of the offense's struggles have been exaggerated nonetheless.

As you said, it's a work in progress, but they have looked pretty good in 3 out of 4 of the games. ARZ played a very good gameplan, and have a tough defense, so it's not shocking that they struggled a bit vs them.

The Pats are #1 in the league in both points scored and yards gained. If that's underperforming, I can't wait until they really get cranked up.

 

[Ring 6]

you have to remember too...our secondary has been getting **** on the past few weeks..why run when you can pass it and complete a high %?

Fitzpatrick completed 56% of his passes.

 

[nekromantique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brady_to_Moss

you have to remember too...our secondary has been getting **** on the past few weeks..why run when you can pass it and complete a high %?

Fitzpatrick completed 56% of his passes.

yeah...that game felt like basketball game in a sense. we scored so often it gave buffalo a lot of chances. but the amount of times they capitalized was low. faster paced bball teams tend to give up a lot of points as well...so you kind of have to look at the other teams %.

not to say this defense is really good...but numbers can be deceiving at times




Posted from Patsfans.com App for Android

 

[JR4]

I think we can all be relatively happy with the success thus far of the front seven, the high round rookies of Jones, Hightower, and Wilson, and the improvement of the CB's (although the bar was set pretty low last yr in that regard).

Since the defense was the main worry coming into the season, most are quite happy with the way they've played, aside from the safeties.

........

supafly,

You know I've just been taking many posts here saying PATs defense is good and we should be happy about it.
What a shock to review the stats and see the PATs in the bottom half of the stats in almost every category. Ranking 25th in run and pass D is not
good at all. Last year at least PATs were around 15th in points allowed.
This year they are currently 18th! in points allowed.
Turnover battle may be a good stat for PATs didn't check it out.