Week 1 Rewind: Belichick was interested in veteran QBs

[JoeSixPat]

I don't understand. Why would a Brady injury convince BB that all of a sudden a vet QB wasn't needed? If he wasn't convinced by Cassel before Brady was injured, doesn't it stand to reason he'd be less convinced after? Wouldn't he at that point sign a vet to learn the playbook?

I guess I'm missing something.

Yup -I'd say you're missing the point that he would have invited Simms and Rattay in knowing they wouldn't be ready to step in for quite some time, being new to the playbook, terminology, etc... Once Brady was injuried it was a given that Cassel was the best and only option at the time as he knew the plays and the system.

What had changed was that it made no sense to undermine Cassel's confidence as a QB with a veteran looking over his shoulder to step in if he faltered.

 

[unoriginal]

Pats brought in J.T. O'Sullivan and David Greene early in 2006 and 2007 for workouts after they were cut by their training camp teams. They actually took physicals and worked out. Both ended up spending time on the practice squad. O'Sullivan went on to start for the Lions and 49ers. Yet at no time do I recall a thread speculating about how this indicated Matt Cassel was on the outs.

They bring in Tim Rattay and Chris Simms after they wash off their rosters out of training camp '08, and suddenly we're bring in free agent QBs to start for us, like the Detroit Lions? I think they're decent for backup QBs but come on.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Careful guys - you all seem incredibly certain that there's no possibility whatsoever that Belichick was actually interested in signing Simms or Rattay.

And if indeed Belichick was considering signing them (while Brady was healthy) - why would you take that as an endorsement of Cassel?

I'm not trying to nitpick here guys - I'm just raising the possibilty. You all seem to be stating your OPINIONS that there's no relation between Cassel's admittedly shaky pre-season performances and an interest adding a veteran QB as a FACT.

 

[DocE]

None of this washes. Belichick was adamant about keeping Cassel as his QB as soon as Brady went down. Just as significant there, was no one on the Team who was bad mouthing Matt even when he was obviously just feeling his way around, in the early games. That could only happen if they were there in the film room as every one got criticized by the coaches, and saw who got criticized and who got praised.

Cassel was pulling his weight in preseason, and many players on the Team were defending him to the hostile questions by press critics, even in the preseason.

The only observation that he was not resigned in the preseason holds water. But they probably felt that MC would want to go somewhere else to try to play, and deserved it, and wouldn't sign for the money they had budgeted for him.

Besides with a year to develop KOC and bring in a vet to learn the system that probably sounded optimal.

However it would have been reasonable to tear up his deal after Brady went down, and ink him for more money and time, before they invested time with him. Perhaps they did, and Matt said no... We'll never know.

I think it all washes. I don't know how you can think his teammates standing up for him in the media has any relevance. The Patriots players never throw any individual under the bus, why would they start with a backup QB? Cassel threw some terrible passes in the preseason, he certainly wasn't "holding his weight". I don't think BB was interested in turning his offense over to Simms or Rattay, but I think it's foolish to believe that the Patriots knew that Cassel was capable of leading a team. I do think they vastly preferred somone who knew the system over a veteran of minimal talent who would have to learn on the fly. Would they have stuck with Cassel if Brett Favre was still available when Brady went down? I don't think we can know the answer to that. Regardless of what they knew, the Pats made the right decision as organization in sticking with Cassel.

 

[unoriginal]

Careful guys - you all seem incredibly certain that there's no possibility whatsoever that Belichick was actually interested in signing Simms or Rattay.

And if indeed Belichick was considering signing them (while Brady was healthy) - why would you take that as an endorsement of Cassel?

I'm not trying to nitpick here guys - I'm just raising the possibilty. You all seem to be stating your OPINIONS that there's no relation between Cassel's admittedly shaky pre-season performances and an interest adding a veteran QB as a FACT.

This can only be directed at me, since you own the post directly above my first. I'll quote what you wrote there:

What had changed was that it made no sense to undermine Cassel's confidence as a QB with a veteran looking over his shoulder to step in if he faltered.

I think the possibility that BB was looking to carry 4 QBs on his roster throughout the season, in case/until Tom Brady went down, is remote. How else was he going to sign them? They were practice squad inelligible, Kevin O'Connell never would have made it past waivers, and you don't IR a unpolished and healthy 3rd round pick for ****s and giggles. Certainly not to make way for 2 no-upside emergency QBs, one who latched on with Tennessee only because they carried just Vince Young and Kerry Collins before Young tweaked out and the other who is still looking for work.

Or maybe you think it probable BB was going to cut Cassel for Simms, straight up, after the Week 1 game?

All of this is actually highly improbable. The Pats have brought in FA QBs before, and they'll do it again, just as much to kick the tires and evaluate them as potential opposing QBs as to find people they may want to sign, should the car carrying Tom Brady, Matt Cassel, and Kevin O'Connell swerve off the Masspike on a snowy winter evening.

The only way to make all of this unlikely hypothesizing worthwhile is if we had some positive evidence to go on, like a player or talent evaluator saying "we thought Chris Simms/Tim Rattay might be an improvement as our backup QB, with his years of NFL experience." Instead all we have are quotes from Tom Brady and Bill Belichick saying Matt Cassel was doing well and that he was clearly the starting QB, and the fact that even after Tom Brady freed up a roster spot for another QB, we went with Matt Guiterrez (who according to this board was supposed to suppplant Matt Cassel in training camp) over the aforementioned. We are then told to ignore all that because it's the Patriot way to say nice things about current players... though I'm not sure it is the Patriot way to deliberately make positions non-competitive by re-signing training camp cuts over vet FAs who "should" be better.

But even ignoring all that, what do we have that would lead us to conclude the Pats bring in FA QBs to serve as backups? The only QB we've uesd like that is Testaverde, who was brought on to a 2-QB depth chart as a human victory cigar.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

The staff always scans for available potential injury replacements, whether it's quarterbacks, wide receivers, running backs, O-line, D-line, linebackers, whatever.

This scanning for available backups at all positions doesn't really express a lack of confidence in those people that are year, rather it acknowledges the fact that you may at some point in a season have injuries 2-deep or even 3-deep at any position and you better have some people to call on right away if it happens.

Few of the early season "kick the tires" visits ever get publicized or result in signings, so it's impossible to tell if this was related in any way to Matt, but I think not. It was clear that any QB signing at that point , though, would be overhyped, even if the intention was to get a #3 guy to call should there be two injuries and the rookie wasn't ready. That's why I think it got cancelled.

 

[emoney_33]

Wow talk about not being able to just admit that you were wrong lol.

Well I'm glad BB was so lucky to accidentally have a guy he didn't trust on his roster turn out so well.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Wow - you guys are pretty oversensitive.

I like the Kool-aid as much as the next guy, but objectively, and based on Cassel's pre-season performances I have to at least consider the possibility that Belichick was considering signing one of the two veteran QBs.

Exactly what am I missing that has caused all of you to rule that out?

 

[Lampshade]

Wow - you guys are pretty oversensitive.

I like the Kool-aid as much as the next guy, but objectively, and based on Cassel's pre-season performances I have to at least consider the possibility that Belichick was considering signing one of the two veteran QBs.

Exactly what am I missing that has caused all of you to rule that out?

You are taking a common occurrence (players being tried out, and not signed), and using it as evidence to support the illogical theory that Belichick wasn't happy with Cassel as a backup, but was so confident with him as a starter that he decided the experienced QBs were no longer needed.

IMO the suggestion that BB didn't want to undermine Cassel's confidence sounds particular unBelichickian. If he believed Cassel's confidence was so shaky, he wouldn't be on the roster in the first place.

 

[JoeSixPat]

You are taking a common occurrence (players being tried out, and not signed), and using it as evidence to support the illogical theory that Belichick wasn't happy with Cassel as a backup, but was so confident with him as a starter that he decided the experienced QBs were no longer needed.

IMO the suggestion that BB didn't want to undermine Cassel's confidence sounds particular unBelichickian. If he believed Cassel's confidence was so shaky, he wouldn't be on the roster in the first place.

No - I'm just raising the possibility that given 1) Cassel's spotty preseason performance and 2) the fact that Belichick invited two veteran QBs in for an interview or possibly workout that its possible (sit down everyone) that Belichick was actually interested in a veteran QB to back up Brady.

Everyone else has ruled that out.

I never said that I knew that Belichick wanted to cut Cassel and bring in a veteran. I don't know what he was thinking - I'm just looking at the facts.

Everyone else apparently knows EXACTLY what Belichick was thinking as they've very clearly 100% ruled out the possibility that Cassel was ever on the bubble coming out of preseason.

 

[Deus Irae]

No - I'm just raising the possibility that given 1) Cassel's spotty preseason performance and 2) the fact that Belichick invited two veteran QBs in for an interview or possibly workout that its possible (sit down everyone) that Belichick was actually interested in a veteran QB to back up Brady.

Everyone else has ruled that out.

I never said that I knew that Belichick wanted to cut Cassel and bring in a veteran. I don't know what he was thinking - I'm just looking at the facts.

Everyone else apparently knows EXACTLY what Belichick was thinking as they've very clearly 100% ruled out the possibility that Cassel was ever on the bubble coming out of preseason.

Oh, enough already:

I think one can reasonably assume that it wasn't O'Connell who wasn't living up to the low expectations a rookie would have. That leaves Cassel's performance as the reason prompting Belichick's interest in a Veteran QB to come in and learn the system while Brady continued to start, with the hope and expection that they would NEVER be needed, but if they were, it was somewhere later in the season when they were integrated in the system.

As of Week 1, when Brady was clearly out, Belichick wisely seems to have acknowledged that the situation had changed, and he was better off with Cassel, who knew the system, rather than a veteran who would have a very limited number of plays they could run if made the starter. Furthermore, one assumes, in an effort to bolster Cassel's confidence and reaffirm that the games were in Cassel's hands, Belichick cancelled the interviews and didn't bother working out Simms or Rattay. (A very wise choice as having a Veteran looking over his shoulder would really do Cassel no good.)

My only reason for raising this is I think its largely been forgotten, but if we're to be accurate in the "Matt Cassel Story" it would appear that even Belichick had serious doubts about whether Cassel was ready for prime time, and that it wouldn't be accurate to suggest that Belichick truly thought all along that Cassel was capable of doing all that he did...

You aren't just "raising the possibility", you're making unsubstantiated claims of facts, based upon assumptions you can't verify, and actions that occur every year without having the ramifications you assign to them. Your statement,

Everyone else apparently knows EXACTLY what Belichick was thinking

is quite ironic, given the context as, once again, pots seem to be commenting upon the color of kettles.

 

[emoney_33]

Wow - you guys are pretty oversensitive.

I like the Kool-aid as much as the next guy, but objectively, and based on Cassel's pre-season performances I have to at least consider the possibility that Belichick was considering signing one of the two veteran QBs.

Exactly what am I missing that has caused all of you to rule that out?

Your "hypothesis", if you can call it that, is flawed in so many ways it's unbelievable. Your analysis of Cassel's pre-season performance combined with your assumptions of players being brought in with expectations of being signed just doesn't make much sense. You pretend to know what Cassel was being asked to do and how he looked under the circumstances (playing with fringe players and a patchwork OL). Pre-season performance only really matters anyway for the extreme fringe players who need a last ditch effort to fight for the end of the roster spots.

Jumping to the most obvious question, why the hell would Simms be an upgrade as a backup QB yet a downgrade as staring QB in 2008? And no one buys the whole Cassel-confidence angle.

Your belief is that if Brady didn't get injured Simms would have been signed and Cassel released after week 1. Now this would assume that BB and the coaching staff were so stupid/stubborn as to not realize Cassel's failures for over 3 friggin years and then finally quit on him after week 1 in his last year.

I dunno why I'm arguing this, it just doesn't make sense. The Pats bring in players ALL THE TIME, from QBs to STers.

 

[unoriginal]

IMO the suggestion that BB didn't want to undermine Cassel's confidence sounds particular unBelichickian. If he believed Cassel's confidence was so shaky, he wouldn't be on the roster in the first place.

Jumping to the most obvious question, why the hell would Simms be an upgrade as a backup QB yet a downgrade as staring QB in 2008? And no one buys the whole Cassel-confidence angle.

The rest of your posts I (obviously) agree with, but I think Joe is somewhat right about the "confidence" angle; just that I think he measured it incorrectly. Maybe "confidence" isn't even the right word; "pressure" might be better.

Why would Belichick cancel the workouts of Rattay and Simms? I think its precisely because of the "mistake" (if it is indeed a mistake, we can never really know what lurks deep in the heart of BB etc.) JoeSixPat made in equating a tire-kicking session of FA QBs to being a vote of no-confidence in the abilities of Matt Cassel.

If BB had worked these guys out, or even - God forbid - signed one of them a week later to fill Brady's roster spot, every ESPN Hot Seat segment would have included a discussion of Matt Cassel vs. Tim Rattay/Chris Simms, at least until Cassel started putting up 400 yard games. Every BB press conference would include questions about how the new backup QB was coming along in the system, when he would be ready to challenge for the starting job. Team captains would be pestered in the locker room to say something bad about either QB; Kevin O'Connell's opinion would be sought as a neutral third-party; every time Randy Moss dropped a pass would be interpretted as a protest in favor of the backup.

Who wants that kind of bother, or that kind of pressure on a new QB? Especially in return for a QB that, if he even saw the field, probably meant the season was shot and likely wouldn't be that good anyway. Much smarter to bring back Matt Gutierrez for another stint as emergency QB in the hope he'll develop enough in his 2nd season to press for Matt Cassel's old job next training camp, and give the press nothing to talk about.

BB did it this way and what happened? There was a week devoted to "Are the Pats looking for QB help?" and then the story faded away when no more QBs were brought in, and BB answered every question with "Matt Cassel is our QB." People wrote Cassel and the Pats off and Cassel only got the hi-beam spotlight when he started to do good things.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Your "hypothesis", if you can call it that, is flawed in so many ways it's unbelievable. Your analysis of Cassel's pre-season performance combined with your assumptions of players being brought in with expectations of being signed just doesn't make much sense. You pretend to know what Cassel was being asked to do and how he looked under the circumstances (playing with fringe players and a patchwork OL). Pre-season performance only really matters anyway for the extreme fringe players who need a last ditch effort to fight for the end of the roster spots.

Jumping to the most obvious question, why the hell would Simms be an upgrade as a backup QB yet a downgrade as staring QB in 2008? And no one buys the whole Cassel-confidence angle.

Your belief is that if Brady didn't get injured Simms would have been signed and Cassel released after week 1. Now this would assume that BB and the coaching staff were so stupid/stubborn as to not realize Cassel's failures for over 3 friggin years and then finally quit on him after week 1 in his last year.

I dunno why I'm arguing this, it just doesn't make sense. The Pats bring in players ALL THE TIME, from QBs to STers.

There's nothing to "argue" - you're able to read Belichick's mind and I'm not. No argument here.

You know exactly what Belichick's intentions were - bringing in veteran QBs with absolutely no intention of making any roster changes. I don't.

But what I do know is that if Cassel was ever on the roster "bubble" it makes his story that much more wonderful.

 

[AzPatsFan]

The rest of your posts I (obviously) agree with, but I think Joe is somewhat right about the "confidence" angle; just that I think he measured it incorrectly. Maybe "confidence" isn't even the right word; "pressure" might be better.

Why would Belichick cancel the workouts of Rattay and Simms? I think its precisely because of the "mistake" (if it is indeed a mistake, we can never really know what lurks deep in the heart of BB etc.) JoeSixPat made in equating a tire-kicking session of FA QBs to being a vote of no-confidence in the abilities of Matt Cassel.

If BB had worked these guys out, or even - God forbid - signed one of them a week later to fill Brady's roster spot, every ESPN Hot Seat segment would have included a discussion of Matt Cassel vs. Tim Rattay/Chris Simms, at least until Cassel started putting up 400 yard games. Every BB press conference would include questions about how the new backup QB was coming along in the system, when he would be ready to challenge for the starting job. Team captains would be pestered in the locker room to say something bad about either QB; Kevin O'Connell's opinion would be sought as a neutral third-party; every time Randy Moss dropped a pass would be interpretted as a protest in favor of the backup.

Who wants that kind of bother, or that kind of pressure on a new QB? Especially in return for a QB that, if he even saw the field, probably meant the season was shot and likely wouldn't be that good anyway. Much smarter to bring back Matt Gutierrez for another stint as emergency QB in the hope he'll develop enough in his 2nd season to press for Matt Cassel's old job next training camp, and give the press nothing to talk about.

BB did it this way and what happened? There was a week devoted to "Are the Pats looking for QB help?" and then the story faded away when no more QBs were brought in, and BB answered every question with "Matt Cassel is our QB." People wrote Cassel and the Pats off and Cassel only got the hi-beam spotlight when he started to do good things.

I Like your extended analysis.

One thing everyone forgets is that Belichick maintains a "Shadow Roster", and he interviews and prepares for it. He may well have been planning to "Shadow Roster" either Simms or Rattay for the 2008 season, along with Junior Seau, Rosey Colvin etc. The "Shadow Roster" can't be prepared until it's pretty clear that the players won't be active with another team. Hence it can only be finalized after final cut-down, at precisely that time of year.

In conjunction with that 2008 "Shadow Roster", he may have been interviewing/arranging for 2009 Training Camp. Pre-Brady injury, Cassel would probably be a FA and probably gone in 2009. Meanwhile, KOC would only be a soph, and not yet ready to assume the backup role. Simms/Rattay could be the reasonable backup for 2009, if they had an entire Camp and maybe an off-season on the "Shadow Roster" to study the playbook. And maybe wait for the emergency phone call.

 

[evh5150]

There's nothing to "argue" - you're able to read Belichick's mind and I'm not. No argument here.

You know exactly what Belichick's intentions were - bringing in veteran QBs with absolutely no intention of making any roster changes. I don't.

But what I do know is that if Cassel was ever on the roster "bubble" it makes his story that much more wonderful.

I was on the phone with William and this is why he did what he did:

1) Rattay and Sims were on the plane BEFORE the brady injury happened. Why interview/tryout them? .....Always be prepared no matter what..........we obviously already know what skillset Rattay/Sims has..........tryouts/interviews can let us see more, whether they can fit into our system, etc etc.........good too for the future.......

2) We get many players in/out for tryouts..........again wanting to know them better, things you can't see on the football field and stats.........one benefit is to keep active players on their toes.............noticed our punting position?

3) Why turn Rattay/Sims back? This was after the Brady injury happened.........Obviously Cassel was the most prepared (in terms of our system) and his mental toughness is an unknown. Having being a backup for so many years (colleague + pros), nobody knows (incl Cassel) whether he can deliver under pressure (stepping into brady's shoes). We got a good idea, having seen him for the past 3+ years (training camp, pre-season, garbage time games), but really nobody knows til the real games started. So why did we turn Rattay/Sims back? We just felt by doing that, we hope it sends a message to Cassel that we are behind him, we have confidence in him............it obviously helped.........I see him everyday.

4) Cassel was able to improve as the season went along, was a testiment to his deligence, his intelligence, his talent........and also to the play-calling of Josh, the execution of the OL, the WRs getting open.......He was playing within himself and the offensive scheme/splaybook.........It would not be possible if Cassel had been a gunslinger type (see jets/cowboys), with no proper mechanics......so it is a credit to Cassel that he played the way he played and took us to 11-5.
PS: If Cassel was a gunslinger type (with no management skills), he would not be on our roster in the first place.........

Hope this helps.

 

[sieglo]

We'll never know for sure what BB was thinking and it's all academic anyway. All I know is that Cassel is damned good. And he's not done getting better, either. I think he will cap out as a top 5 QB in the league, given the right opportunity.