Way to go, Stubhub

[PatsFan37]

Well, I was planning to watch this thread from the sidelines but since you insist...

Scalping should be legalized because, ultimately, the consumer benefits from a free and open marketplace. It's really quite a simple concept to anyone with a high school level understanding of economics.

I have no problem with legalizing scalping. OTOH, I don't think an organization staging an event should be forced to sell tickets as transferable licenses.

If the organization allows tickets to be resold, the state should not step in and make that illegal.

 

[shakadave]

OMG dude.

Are you serious? You pay triple the face value prices?

Next time you want tickets let me know i could probably get them for you for face value and you can pay me the ridiculous extra amount.

I cant believe people actually BUY those outrageous ticket prices.

OK, fix me up! I appreciate your generous offer, but can you really get me into the MNF game at Baltimore on the 10-yard line for $55? I have to doubt it (with nothing personal intended).

 

[brady2brown]

Well, I was planning to watch this thread from the sidelines but since you insist...

Scalping should be legalized because, ultimately, the consumer benefits from a free and open marketplace. It's really quite a simple concept to anyone with a high school level understanding of economics.

It is hardly simple, but please let us know when you take this high school course. You can then explain to us how the lack of anti-gouging laws that prevent businesses from selling everything from gasoline to food at exhorbitant prices because of market fluctuations that cause demand to skyrocket. And how a free-market labor force will benefit all those people who rely on minimum wage laws. I'm sure they don't understand how working for two bucks an hour will benefit them.

You are free to believe that consumers benefit from a totally free market-place, but please don't say that those who have studied ecomonics for years need to defer to someone who knows all about it because they took ECON 101. Or read the course description.

The market place is extremely complicated, and nothing is simple. Without a system of checks and balances, consumers would not be better off.

 

[PATSNUTme]

For one of the first times I'm on both sides of the issue. I agree with the Krafts that they ultimately control the tickets to their games because it private property.

I also believe in the law of supply and demand. I wouldn't pay those obscene prices but if some people want to that's their business.

I guess the ultimate deciding factor is what is printed on the back of the ticket. If it says the resale of the tickets are prohibited without permission of the NE Patriots Football team, then the Krafts can pull the plug on it anytime they want.

 

[Michigan Dave]

I've had great experiences with StubHub. I've gotten tickets for big games just above face (NBA Finals, NBA Conference Finals, NFL) and had to pay quite a bit for tickets that I really wanted. It's a market, just like the guy walking back and forth in front of the stadium selling. You negotiate by holding out. I will wait until the prices drop, and if they don't, I don't buy from StubHub, I go with cash in hand. I use StubHub for games I need to go to that are a tough ticket. If I go to a Pats game, odds are I'm buying from StubHub because I didn't plan it out very far in advance, and I don't really know the scalping market there. If I didn't have Michigan season tickets, I wouldn't buy on StubHub because I know the market, and how much and where I can get them.

 

[QuiGon]

It is hardly simple, but please let us know when you take this high school course. You can then explain to us how the lack of anti-gouging laws that prevent businesses from selling everything from gasoline to food at exhorbitant prices because of market fluctuations that cause demand to skyrocket. And how a free-market labor force will benefit all those people who rely on minimum wage laws. I'm sure they don't understand how working for two bucks an hour will benefit them.

You must not have read the previous threads on this subject... I left out an important part here and I apologize (I should not have assumed everyone here was a part of previous threads).

Anyway, my entire statement about tickets follows the established fact that we are talking about a luxury good. A complete non-necessity. We are not talking about buying health care, home heating oil, food or water in a hurricane or any such thing. Also, we are not talking about a "quality of life" issue. We are talking purely about an entertainment expense which is a luxury.

Given those assumptions, I stand by my statement that a free and open marketplace ultimately benefits the consumer more having a closed marketplace.

 

[JDP111]

It's called capitalism. Get used to it or move to China. If you don't like the high prices from StubHub, then don't buy the tickets. It's really that simple.

 

[Patjew]

It's called capitalism. Get used to it or move to China. If you don't like the high prices from StubHub, then don't buy the tickets. It's really that simple.

China is more capitalistic than the U.S. will ever be.

 

[shmessy]

Given those assumptions, I stand by my statement that a free and open marketplace ultimately benefits the consumer more having a closed marketplace.

Great! I hear there is some great Chinese toothpaste available that says "Colgate" on the front. Or dog food that says "Alpo" on the front.

But more to this situation, there also is something called "intellectual property". The Krafts are doing nothing more than what any movie studio does to protect pirated versions of their product. The originator made the product. The originator has every right to protect its distribution. What did Stub Hub do to make the Patriots such a desired product? Stub Hub is taking unfair advantage. If Kraft jacked up the ticket prices to "what the market would bear", he would be villified. Stub Hub does it and it's OK?

A "free and open marketplace" should be that way for all parties. Kraft should, therefore, have the very same right to:
1) Hold onto the tickets and horde them until he sees fit to sell them
2) Jack up ticket prices on a game-by-game basis right up until game time.

You want it "free and open" - - then Kraft should have AT LEAST the same right as those leeches Stub Hub in regard to his own product.

 

[TheSeymonsta]

All the ticket agencies and anyone who sells tickets for a ridiculous profit are ***holes in my book.


They have made it impossible for the real fans to go to games because people with an endless supply of disposable income are willing to pay whatever it costs to go to a game and they dont even enjoy the game.....

Most of them are only there for the social gathering and not the game itself. They just want to be seen on TV or talk to someone on their cell phone.:bricks:

 

[PatsFan37]

A "free and open marketplace" should be that way for all parties. Kraft should, therefore, have the very same right to:
1) Hold onto the tickets and horde them until he sees fit to sell them
2) Jack up ticket prices on a game-by-game basis right up until game time.

You want it "free and open" - - then Kraft should have AT LEAST the same right as those leeches Stub Hub in regard to his own product.

Precisely right. And the reason there would be a hue and cry if Kraft priced to the market is that an NFL franchise is an effective monopoly. Do you really think the Patriots have any real competition? Kraft owns the only NFL franchise for hundreds of miles. The barrier to entry for another league is somewhere between enormous and insurmountable.

Congress allows the NFL to collude on a salary cap in much the same way townships allow the phone company to own all the phone lines -- it benefits the customer to have one entity control a limited resource and manage it to promote a better product.

In this case, the limited resource is the number of NFL-quality football players. (there is another thread on this sort of topic -- on starting another league).

Nonetheless, Kraft does not exercise his monopoly power, choosing to keep ticket prices artificially low. If he so chose, he would raise prices to the point where some seats would remain unsold each game, maximizing profits.

Where the owners exercise their monopoly power is negotiating with the networks. But that's not what we're talking about.

StubHub and scalpers attempt to exploit the difference between Kraft's artificially low prices and the prices the market will actually yield.

No competitive pricing model would ever support a waiting list like the Patriots have. They are trying to manage it equitably so the stadium does not become a rich man's domain. I hope they screw Stubhub to the wall.

Not that I have an opinion on the matter.

 

[PatsFan37]

I've had great experiences with StubHub. I've gotten tickets for big games just above face (NBA Finals, NBA Conference Finals, NFL) and had to pay quite a bit for tickets that I really wanted. It's a market, just like the guy walking back and forth in front of the stadium selling. You negotiate by holding out. I will wait until the prices drop, and if they don't, I don't buy from StubHub, I go with cash in hand. I use StubHub for games I need to go to that are a tough ticket. If I go to a Pats game, odds are I'm buying from StubHub because I didn't plan it out very far in advance, and I don't really know the scalping market there. If I didn't have Michigan season tickets, I wouldn't buy on StubHub because I know the market, and how much and where I can get them.

If the Patriots have their way, the same tickets would be sold, but through the Patriots ticket exchange, for face value.

In the short run, fewer tickets would be exchanged, as those ticket holders will go to the game if they can't sell their tickets for three-times face value. This is as it should be.

Eventually, unwilling ticket holders will not renew and more serious fans will take those seats. Right now, ticketholders are profiting from their season's tickets, Stubhub enables those profits, and that is simply wrong.

 

[Mike the Brit]

Precisely right. And the reason there would be a hue and cry if Kraft priced to the market is that an NFL franchise is an effective monopoly. Do you really think the Patriots have any real competition? Kraft owns the only NFL franchise for hundreds of miles. The barrier to entry for another league is somewhere between enormous and insurmountable.

Congress allows the NFL to collude on a salary cap in much the same way townships allow the phone company to own all the phone lines -- it benefits the customer to have one entity control a limited resource and manage it to promote a better product.

In this case, the limited resource is the number of NFL-quality football players. (there is another thread on this sort of topic -- on starting another league).

Nonetheless, Kraft does not exercise his monopoly power, choosing to keep ticket prices artificially low. If he so chose, he would raise prices to the point where some seats would remain unsold each game, maximizing profits.

Where the owners exercise their monopoly power is negotiating with the networks. But that's not what we're talking about.

StubHub and scalpers attempt to exploit the difference between Kraft's artificially low prices and the prices the market will actually yield.

No competitive pricing model would ever support a waiting list like the Patriots have. They are trying to manage it equitably so the stadium does not become a rich man's domain. I hope they screw Stubhub to the wall.

Not that I have an opinion on the matter.

:yeahthat:

Me neither!

 

[Michigan Dave]

If the Patriots have their way, the same tickets would be sold, but through the Patriots ticket exchange, for face value.

In the short run, fewer tickets would be exchanged, as those ticket holders will go to the game if they can't sell their tickets for three-times face value. This is as it should be.

Eventually, unwilling ticket holders will not renew and more serious fans will take those seats. Right now, ticketholders are profiting from their season's tickets, Stubhub enables those profits, and that is simply wrong.

I don't think that is 'as it should be.' While I am a rabid fan both of my college and pro teams, I am able to hold season tickets to only one- and it happens to be the team that plays 2 miles from my house. Yet I love the opportunity to get out to Foxborough for a game in the fall. Being able to pick up a ticket online is a great luxury for me, and one I don't mind paying extra to have. Furthermore, I know some fans who are die-hards, and buy season tickets to support their team, but cannot make every game, or use the ability to sell 1 or 2 games at a high price to subsidize the cost of the tickets they actually use. I have no problem with that. Ideally, there would be a system to place the tickets that are bought 100% for scalping into the hands of the "real" fans. But that is impossible to do, and frankly, what you have is people like myself denied the opportunity to catch a game. The odds of my being able to secure face value tickets a week before the game when I decide to come out is highly unlikely. Hence, paying the price on StubHub is worth it to me.

 

[Michigan Dave]

Precisely right. And the reason there would be a hue and cry if Kraft priced to the market is that an NFL franchise is an effective monopoly. Do you really think the Patriots have any real competition? Kraft owns the only NFL franchise for hundreds of miles. The barrier to entry for another league is somewhere between enormous and insurmountable.

Congress allows the NFL to collude on a salary cap in much the same way townships allow the phone company to own all the phone lines -- it benefits the customer to have one entity control a limited resource and manage it to promote a better product.

In this case, the limited resource is the number of NFL-quality football players. (there is another thread on this sort of topic -- on starting another league).

Nonetheless, Kraft does not exercise his monopoly power, choosing to keep ticket prices artificially low. If he so chose, he would raise prices to the point where some seats would remain unsold each game, maximizing profits.

Where the owners exercise their monopoly power is negotiating with the networks. But that's not what we're talking about.

StubHub and scalpers attempt to exploit the difference between Kraft's artificially low prices and the prices the market will actually yield.

No competitive pricing model would ever support a waiting list like the Patriots have. They are trying to manage it equitably so the stadium does not become a rich man's domain. I hope they screw Stubhub to the wall.

Not that I have an opinion on the matter.

The only problem here is that for teams like the Patriots, this works. People will pay to see a winner. Kraft could charge $500/seat, and they would sell. The only problem is that if the team reverses fortunes, it's going to be tough to sell seats to the "real" fans that may not be able to pay $500 a pop, but are able to pay the lower price but have now been alienated. Conversely, the Cardinals would have a hard time filling their stadium at a higher price.

Kraft does not keep the prices artificially low to be nice. It's a smart business decision, and they utilize tiered pricing and suites to maximize profits while still being able to cater to the average fan and maintain the largest fan base possible. Having the maximum number of people possible exposed to your product is important for the Krafts. That is why there are single-game seats available, and that is why scalping is an integral part of the NFL. If there were no tickets for fathers to take their sons to games, these kids would have less of an attachment to the Patriots brand, and possibly the NFL as a whole. Ticket sales are only one piece of the revenue pie, and Kraft knows this.

 

[PatsFan37]

Furthermore, I know some fans who are die-hards, and buy season tickets to support their team, but cannot make every game, or use the ability to sell 1 or 2 games at a high price to subsidize the cost of the tickets they actually use. I have no problem with that.

Sorry, Dave, I have a problem with that. If they can't go to a game, let them sell their tickets at face value on the Patriots ticket exchange. Your approach encourages profiteering from a franchise they had no part building, placed no investment and assumed no risk.

 

[TheSeymonsta]

Sorry, Dave, I have a problem with that. If they can't go to a game, let them sell their tickets at face value on the Patriots ticket exchange. Your approach encourages profiteering from a franchise they had no part building, placed no investment and assumed no risk.

100% correct....

On top of that they are profiting from people who may only be able to afford 1 game a year and support the same team.


Pats fans should stick together and if some are fortunate enough to have season tickets and cant get to a game they should offer them up to a fellow Pats fan at face value.

Obviously if they have season tickets they do not need to profit from tickets.

 

[PatsFan37]

The only problem here is that for teams like the Patriots, this works. People will pay to see a winner. Kraft could charge $500/seat, and they would sell. The only problem is that if the team reverses fortunes, it's going to be tough to sell seats to the "real" fans that may not be able to pay $500 a pop, but are able to pay the lower price but have now been alienated. Conversely, the Cardinals would have a hard time filling their stadium at a higher price.

While true, what you say is irrelevant. You're saying that because Brady is winning quarterback, Joe Fan is entitled to skip games and profit on his season's tickets. I disagree.

Kraft does not keep the prices artificially low to be nice. It's a smart business decision, and they utilize tiered pricing and suites to maximize profits while still being able to cater to the average fan and maintain the largest fan base possible. Having the maximum number of people possible exposed to your product is important for the Krafts. That is why there are single-game seats available, and that is why scalping is an integral part of the NFL. If there were no tickets for fathers to take their sons to games, these kids would have less of an attachment to the Patriots brand, and possibly the NFL as a whole. Ticket sales are only one piece of the revenue pie, and Kraft knows this.

I don't understand why you think scalping is the only way to sell single-game seats or that charging 3x face value is better for the community than selling at face value. Unless you do this yourself and you're trying to justify it. Stubhub serves the community as brokers, by matching sellers and buyers. If the Patriots can do this for less and eliminate the profiteering and preferentially sell to their waiting list, I don't see where the fan community is hurt.

The Krafts have tiered pricing, and they do maximize profits from the club seats. It's THOSE seats that subsidize the rest of the seats. The rest of the seats, tiered though they may be, are not at market prices.

How can you possibly argue that they keep prices low to maximize the fan base when they could fill the stadium at 3x the price? That maximum is 68,000. Period. The remaining several million fans are served for free by television. It is a smart business decision only in that the Krafts would catch hell if they charged market prices for tickets.

So if it's not okay for them to charge the market rate, why is it okay for a season ticketholder? That's what I can't understand.

 

[Michigan Dave]

Sorry, Dave, I have a problem with that. If they can't go to a game, let them sell their tickets at face value on the Patriots ticket exchange. Your approach encourages profiteering from a franchise they had no part building, placed no investment and assumed no risk.

How is that any different than selling anything else? There sure is a risk- if the team sucks, and someone purchased tickets with the sole intent on selling them for a profit, they'll possibly lose money. My approach is not one that necessarily is on board with the insane prices, rather one that offers everyone a fair shot at tickets. I highly doubt that the face value tickets on PTE would last long, and I've already tried getting tickets when singles go on sale before. I think if the option was being reimbursed face value, many ticketholders would reluctantly go to games they don't want to, or eat the ticket. I'd rather have the opportunity to give them a fair price and go myself and enjoy the game.

The teams profit from season ticket sales by bundling less desirable games with the marquee games. I had to pay $50/ticket for Michigan v. Appalachian State as part of my season ticket package this year, despite knowing that I can get that ticket for $10 outside of the stadium on gameday. On the other hand, the $50 I paid per ticket for my Ohio State ticket is gravy, because I would easily pay $2000 per ticket from a scalper for that. It all balances out, and for the most part, the market doesn't dictate outrageous ticket prices. I think we got our Pats-Bears tickets off of eBay last year. It cost $100 a ticket, which I found VERY reasonable, and we were in the lower bowl.

 

[Michigan Dave]

While true, what you say is irrelevant. You're saying that because Brady is winning quarterback, Joe Fan is entitled to skip games and profit on his season's tickets. I disagree.

I am very much against people buying season tickets with the sole intent on selling them for profit. I am not against those people who cannot make a game selling them for profit to help defer the cost. I have 4 Michigan seats, and we use 2. I do not sell the other 2 for profit, rather either for face or for free to friends. But I know people who love the team, can't necessarily afford the tickets, but are able to get them, go to maybe 5 or 6 games, and then sell a ND or OSU ticket to cover the rest of the games. I have no problem with that. If ND, Michigan, or OSU sucks, they are screwed.

I don't understand why you think scalping is the only way to sell single-game seats or that charging 3x face value is better for the community than selling at face value. Unless you do this yourself and you're trying to justify it. Stubhub serves the community as brokers, by matching sellers and buyers. If the Patriots can do this for less and eliminate the profiteering and preferentially sell to their waiting list, I don't see where the fan community is hurt.

I am for this because it is a good way for me to acquire tickets. I do not pay what I deem too high, but I always have the option of going to a game that I want to see. I travel to a LOT of sporting events. It's a passion, and a lot of it is last minute. If everything was sold through the teams, or the box office, the odds of my getting tickets would be slim to none. The online brokers have created a good market, and the pricing really isn't that bad if you play the game well. Believe me, if there was a way that I could see every game I wanted for face value, I'd be all over it. Hell, we drove across the state lines into Indiana for a residents-only Ticketmaster sale to acquire AFCCG tickets last year for face value. I never would be able to fly to Massachussetts to do the same if the game were in Foxborough. Hence, the advantage of StubHub. I can go to the game. I paid $500 for tickets to the Pats-Steelers AFCCG from StubHub in 05, and it was well worth it. I can guarantee if the Steelers were in charge of all ticket sales, I would never have been able to score those tickets.

How can you possibly argue that they keep prices low to maximize the fan base when they could fill the stadium at 3x the price? That maximum is 68,000. Period. The remaining several million fans are served for free by television. It is a smart business decision only in that the Krafts would catch hell if they charged market prices for tickets.

So if it's not okay for them to charge the market rate, why is it okay for a season ticketholder? That's what I can't understand.

Because people are more likely to be attached to a team given the opportunity to take in the experience. If we polled this board, a vast majority could probably describe going to Pats games as a kid, or growing attached by being part of something. I'm also not saying that the Pats can't charge market rate. They could, but it wouldn't be a smart business move. Could the Pats sell out 68,000 at $400 a seat? Right now? This season? Probably. Probably not for the majority of their existence, though. Football is a very public entity, and public perception is huge. I've heard plenty of people here complaining about the "fans" in the red seats, right? Imagine all 68,000 seats being red seats. It's all marketing. Like I said, ticket sales are one thing, but the Patriots are able to generate a large waiting list with the current prices- ensuring that if things sour, and some people bail, odds are they'll be able to continue to operate at capacity and keep the operating budget the same. They also are able to expose more people to the game this way, and continue to build the brand loyalty. The business of sport is much deeper than just hiking ticket prices whenever possible.

Should the private ticketholder be able to control this? Not necessarily, but the team does benefit from the perception of a tough ticket market. Hell, the LA Lakers live off of this. I think there should be some sort of StubHub-esque reform, but I don't like the team's idea at all.