Was Pete Carroll that bad of a coach with the Patriots?

[BradyFTW!]

Off topic but I don't want Parcells anywhere near the Patriots HOF.



I'll never forgive the guy for the stunt he pulled bailing on his Super Bowl team the way he did. The coaching in that game was curiously awful, and I still wonder to this day whether that was a result of just a bad day at the office or something a lot more diabolical than that. I wouldn't put anything past his ego.

I'd be shocked if he intentionally sabotaged the SB. More likely game planning for the SB was a distant second on his list of priorities that week, and it showed in the results. Not that that's a whole lot better.

 

[IcyPatriot]

I do not understand why some do not want the Seahawks to win because it's Pete ... I am not even sure why anyone around here would dislike him based on his time here. He did the best he could ... he has some different personal opinions but that's not football so why should it matter?

Did he ever do anything here to piss people off?

 

[IcyPatriot]

Can someone please explain this Tebucky Jones thing to me?

I think he was drafted based on Bobby Grier's stopwatch.

Great athlete ... Dumb as a rock .........

 

[Joker]

I do not understand why some do not want the Seahawks to win because it's Pete ... I am not even sure why anyone around here would dislike him based on his time here. He did the best he could ... he has some different personal opinions but that's not football so why should it matter?

Did he ever do anything here to piss people off?

yeah...he kept playing west coast Cali-laid back guy with the golly gee whiz persona that doesn't play on the East Coast. It just doesn't. He didn't pick the groceries, but the groceries he inherited ended up just not playing for him.

That being said, I WANT Pete to coach this game to a win. He deserves it. He put in his time, and he's built a team his way. They play hard for him and they are extremely talented. I imagine if Pete had those 31 picks that Grier blew back when he was coach here,perhaps we'd be talking about him in a different light.

The subject of Pete Carroll here is so polarizing. You're on one side or the other. I can't say he sucked here without getting the "you hate Carroll and don't want him to win!" backlash. Well, I'm just giving MY opinion based on what I saw. He sucked here., He's been damn fine in Seattle. Why can't a person call a spade a spade anymore?

 

[pheenix11]

I've had a change of heart concerning Pete Carroll, I thought he was soft when he was here and maybe he was but there's no denying the guy knows what he is doing when he is allowed to shop for the groceries. He's done a nice job in Seattle.

Bobby Grier screwed him royally. But in the end it was worth it because Kraft learned his lesson and let Belichick make his own personnel decisions and the rest is history.

I hope Carroll and the Seahawks crush the Broncos.

 

[1960Pats]

Those guys also lasted the Carroll years.

I think BB the greatest, but I don't see any harm in giving credit to Parcells for bringing those guys in. Like it or not, Tuna had his finger prints on those SB teams.

Regarding the connection. BB apart of that coaching tree. Besides their relationship with the media, those 2 have a lot in common coaching wise

Let's try again. This is what I commented on in your post. -At the end, the Parcels way was what this team was built off of. They needed a Parcels type guy to get it. And that was Belichick.-

That seems like more than just giving credit for a few players that Tuna admitted he didn't have the authority to choose. I'm not saying that Tuna deserves no credit, just that he gets more than he deserves. He certainly is not what this team was built off of.

As for coaching trees, I don't believe in them. I think coaching in the NFL is like any other profession, you learn as you go from a variety of sources. For people who do believe in them though, I don't think they can explain how BB is from Parcells' tree since Belichick was on the staff at New York before Parcells arrived. If anything Belichick is part of the Ted Marchibroda tree or the Ray Perkins tree along with Parcells.

 

[1960Pats]

The pre-Parcells patriots were usually considerably worse than this except for a one brief stint in the 70's.

You forgot about the 80's. We had a better team under Ray Berry than we did in the 90's under Tuna. I really don't get all this love for Tuna. He doesn't deserve it.

 

[1960Pats]

The Patriots of the late 80's and early 90's (pre-Parcells) were the laughingstock of the league. They had a high school caliber stadium, an owner desperate to pick up and move the team to St. Louis, and Zeke Mowatt was showing off his Patriot Missile to Lisa Olsen.

They were arguably the worst run team in the league, they were ridiculed from all sides, and home games would regularly be played before 35,000 empty seats (or, I should say, empty aluminum benches).

Bill Parcells isn't exactly my favorite guy in football, but I recognize that he brought a tremendous amount of cred to the organization when he arrived.

The window of futility (Rust/McPhearson 90-92) was very small. Prior to that time we had solid winning teams with good coaching (Meyer/Berry 82-89) with playoff results as good as or better than Parcells' teams. Heck, Carroll's team had a better record and made the playoffs more often than Tuna's teams.

If I'm going to give cred to anyone it would be to three people, Bob Kraft, Bill Belichick and Tom Brady. THEY are the people responsible for for the team's new winning ways, and winning is what brings cred.

 

[PatsDeb]

To answer the original OP's question, no Pete Carroll was not that bad. He just came in at a bad time with a style that did not match his predecessor's and did not work here. How could he win? He followed the legendary Bill Parcells who left town in the middle of the night after throwing the entire organization under the bus. People were upset and wanted the team to be run the same way, but Carroll is not the same person as Parcells by a long shot.

I will admit that for a long time I thought Pete Carroll couldn't run a pro team. But the guy is obviously smart and successful. He went back to college and continued to hone his own style, and when he was given the opportunity again, he ran with it, to great success (sounds sort of like some guy that replaced him here...). I hope he and his team win today. It will be a heck of a lot easier for me to see him getting a ring than the guy QBing the other team.

I have decided to watch the game for the ads (see how I rationalize things for myself?). Go Hawks!

 

[upstater1]

I thought Pete Carroll was bad with the Patriots. That 1986 team had a lot of talent and should have been more successful.

I'll give you a great example of why he was bad.

In one of his two last years, I clearly remember a game in which the team came back from way behind and had the opponent on the run in the final minute. Bledsoe was completing pass after pass and the Patriots were going in for the winning TD and the opponent was reeling. After the Patriots got the ball down to the 25 yard line or so Pete was yelling for them to spike it and when it was clear that Bledsoe was fighting the call, Pete got animated. I clearly remember Terry Glenn looking at Carroll and shaking his head like, "WTF are you doing?" Pete called timeout. The opposition got their wind. The drive stalled, Patriots lost.

Now, this is Carroll in a nutshell. He didn't have the feel for the game, he didn't have the player's ultimate respect. It's bad enough that you have some me-first players like Bledsoe and Glenn shaking you off but these players were highly successful under Parcells. And they were jerks for dissing Carroll. BUT... that was a bad call by Carroll. And it showed he didn't have his pulse on the flow of the game. He was very Andy-Reid-like in that instance and many others.

I think the defense loved him because they were an attacking D that caused a lot of trouble. I remember them beating Dan Marino in the playoffs in such a vicious way that Marino got into the face of Bruschi after a sack and said, "You f_____ really love hitting me, don't ya?" But on offense, they were a mess, even with a lot of talent. A shame, but Pete lost control of that team with bonehead plays and disrespect from the players because he often sunk them in crucial situations.

I also found Carroll to be good at preparing his teams for games even if he was not very good at in-game adjustments.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Let's try again. This is what I commented on in your post. -At the end, the Parcels way was what this team was built off of. They needed a Parcels type guy to get it. And that was Belichick.-

That seems like more than just giving credit for a few players that Tuna admitted he didn't have the authority to choose. I'm not saying that Tuna deserves no credit, just that he gets more than he deserves. He certainly is not what this team was built off of.

As for coaching trees, I don't believe in them. I think coaching in the NFL is like any other profession, you learn as you go from a variety of sources. For people who do believe in them though, I don't think they can explain how BB is from Parcells' tree since Belichick was on the staff at New York before Parcells arrived. If anything Belichick is part of the Ted Marchibroda tree or the Ray Perkins tree along with Parcells.

To add to that, I think that Belichick did far more for Parcells' coaching education and success than Parcells ever did for Belichick. There's a reason why every time Parcells has had any kind of success, Belichick has been prominently involved (and not vice versa).

 

[borg]

Carroll did great considering....BB won 5 games in 2000 with essentially the same roster Carroll was given by Tuna/Grier. And not too many are factoring the Bledsoe component who was a fixture in the Carroll era....ownership and upper management were fully committed to Drew, warts and all, and that was the hand Carroll was dealt.
PS....take a look at the 97-99 drafts....Yikes

1997 New England Patriots Draft Selections Round Overall Player Position College
1 29 Chris Canty Cornerback Kansas State
2 59 Brandon Mitchell Defensive tackle Texas A&M
3[3] 61 Sedrick Shaw Running back Iowa
3 89 Chris Carter Safety Texas
4[3] 97 Damon Denson Offensive guard Michigan
4 125 Ed Ellis Offensive tackle Buffalo
5 159 Vernon Crawford Linebacker Florida State
6 192 Tony Gaiter Wide receiver Miami (FL)
7 230 Scott Rehberg Offensive guard Central Michiga

1998 New England Patriots Draft Selections Round Overall Player Position College
1[5] 18 Robert Edwards Running back Georgia
1 22 Tebucky Jones Safety Syracuse
2[6] 52 Tony Simmons Wide receiver Wisconsin
2 54 Rod Rutledge Tight end Alabama
3[7] 81 Chris Floyd Fullback Michigan
3 83 Greg Spires Defensive end Florida State
4 115 Leonta Rheams Defensive tackle Houston
5 145 Ron Merkerson Linebacker Colorado
6 176 Harold Shaw Fullback Southern Miss
7 211 Jason Andersen Offensive guard BYU

1999 New England Patriots Draft Selections Round Overall Player Position College
1[5] 17 Damien Woody Center Boston College
1[6] 28 Andy Katzenmoyer Linebacker Ohio State
2[7] 46 Kevin Faulk Running back LSU
3[8] 91 Tony George Safety Florida
5 154 Derrick Fletcher Offensive guard Baylor
6[9] 180 Marcus Washington Safety Colorado
7 227 Michael Bishop Quarterback Kansas State
7 241 Sean Morey Wide receiver Brown

 

[upstater1]

Carroll did great considering....BB won 5 games in 2000 with essentially the same roster Carroll was given by Tuna/Grier. And not too many are factoring the Bledsoe component who was a fixture in the Carroll era....ownership and upper management were fully committed to Drew, warts and all, and that was the hand Carroll was dealt.
PS....take a look at the 97-99 drafts....Yikes

1997 New England Patriots Draft Selections Round Overall Player Position College
1 29 Chris Canty Cornerback Kansas State
2 59 Brandon Mitchell Defensive tackle Texas A&M
3[3] 61 Sedrick Shaw Running back Iowa
3 89 Chris Carter Safety Texas
4[3] 97 Damon Denson Offensive guard Michigan
4 125 Ed Ellis Offensive tackle Buffalo
5 159 Vernon Crawford Linebacker Florida State
6 192 Tony Gaiter Wide receiver Miami (FL)
7 230 Scott Rehberg Offensive guard Central Michiga

1998 New England Patriots Draft Selections Round Overall Player Position College
1[5] 18 Robert Edwards Running back Georgia
1 22 Tebucky Jones Safety Syracuse
2[6] 52 Tony Simmons Wide receiver Wisconsin
2 54 Rod Rutledge Tight end Alabama
3[7] 81 Chris Floyd Fullback Michigan
3 83 Greg Spires Defensive end Florida State
4 115 Leonta Rheams Defensive tackle Houston
5 145 Ron Merkerson Linebacker Colorado
6 176 Harold Shaw Fullback Southern Miss
7 211 Jason Andersen Offensive guard BYU

1999 New England Patriots Draft Selections Round Overall Player Position College
1[5] 17 Damien Woody Center Boston College
1[6] 28 Andy Katzenmoyer Linebacker Ohio State
2[7] 46 Kevin Faulk Running back LSU
3[8] 91 Tony George Safety Florida
5 154 Derrick Fletcher Offensive guard Baylor
6[9] 180 Marcus Washington Safety Colorado
7 227 Michael Bishop Quarterback Kansas State
7 241 Sean Morey Wide receiver Brown

Only commenting about those drafts specifically, but I challenge you to go back and look at the 1997 draft and see if you could have done better. That draft is known by draftniks as the worst draft of the last 30 years. It was very bad for Grier, but when you couple it with his good 1996 and 1999 drafts, with a mediocre 1998, he didn't do so bad over 4 years. Woody, Katzenmoyer and Faulk were good picks. Robert Edwards, Tebucky Jones and Greg Spires also were good picks. 1997 was bad as only Brandon Mitchell turned into a starter. But 1996 was an absolute haul for Grier with Terry Glenn, Lawyer Milloy, Tedy Bruschi. Other players like Sullivan and Peter stayed around the league for a little bit.

Those are the extent of Grier's additions over 4 years: Glenn, Milloy, Bruschi, Mitchell, Edwards, Tebucky, Spires, Woody, Katzenmoyer, Faulk. 10 solid starters over a 4 years period.

 

[YearbookCurfew]

Is Pete Carroll a bad coach? No. Was Carroll the right coach for the Pats? No.

One could make the same argument with Belichick and the Browns. Is BB a bad coach? Hell no! Was he the right coach for the Browns? I don't think so.

Some coaches and players excel on certain teams, and do terrible on others. See Alex Smith and the Chiefs. He wasn't great on the 9ers, but he's doing really well on the Chiefs. Another factor could be experience. When he was on the Pats, he was not as experienced as he was now. Same with BB when he was on the Browns.