Vrabel vs Belichick

[Patjew]

Where is the option for someone on a high horse beating a dead horse?

 

[gobesmug]

As of right now, Vrabel and it's not even close. Belichick is a shell of himself.

If we are talking careers it's Belichick.

That's the only correct answer IMO

 

[sb1]

Mayo is better than both. He doesn’t even need to help his players when they’re between the white lines…

 

[JoeSixPat]

Good and tough question given Belichick's unquestioned history and success.

But for the times we live in, Belichick might possibly find himself outsmarted by Vrabel in a one on one matchup...

I'd submit this for consider from way back in 2020 and cast my vote for Vrabel.

Mike Vrabel uses Bill Belichick's own NFL rulebook loophole against him in Titans win over Patriots

The Patriots coach is always one step ahead of the rest of us except for Saturday night

www.cbssports.com

 

[Hugepatsfan]

Good and tough question given Belichick's unquestioned history and success.

But for the times we live in, Belichick might possibly find himself outsmarted by Vrabel in a one on one matchup...

I'd submit this for consider from way back in 2020 and cast my vote for Vrabel.

Mike Vrabel uses Bill Belichick's own NFL rulebook loophole against him in Titans win over Patriots

The Patriots coach is always one step ahead of the rest of us except for Saturday night

www.cbssports.com

I don't think that really qualifies as Vrabel outsmarting BB. It's not like BB was caught off guard. He himself found the loophole in the rule. Vrabel's team was just winning so they got to use it. That wasn't about BB being outsmarted. Maybe he was out-gameplanned (tbh I don't remember specifics of that game).

 

[upstater1]

Good and tough question given Belichick's unquestioned history and success.

But for the times we live in, Belichick might possibly find himself outsmarted by Vrabel in a one on one matchup...

I'd submit this for consider from way back in 2020 and cast my vote for Vrabel.

Mike Vrabel uses Bill Belichick's own NFL rulebook loophole against him in Titans win over Patriots

The Patriots coach is always one step ahead of the rest of us except for Saturday night

www.cbssports.com

I think people misunderstood what was happening here in this instance. Belichick wasn't complaining about the loophole. He was complaining about the refs misapplication of the rule. You can only use it a certain number of times, and the refs let it go more than the allotted times.

 

[mnpatfan]

Vrabel.

Belichick is a ****.

 

[Drunken Cicerone]

Belichick was the coach of a team that was a Super Bowl contender for 20 years. Yeah he had Brady but you can’t write any of that off

 

[sb1]

Belichick was the coach of a team that was a Super Bowl contender for 20 years. Yeah he had Brady but you can’t write any of that off

Nope but his time in Cleveland and NE sans Brady is just as much part of his story. It’s not a small sample size.

 

[signbabybrady]

Math is hard

 

[Ian]

Nope but his time in Cleveland and NE sans Brady is just as much part of his story. It’s not a small sample size.

I do disagree with this. Again, he turned the franchise around and made them competitive before getting the rug pulled out from underneath him thanks to Modell moving the team. We all watched the documentary and saw what went down behind the scenes in that final season, they probably would have gone back to the playoffs and made a deeper run had that not happened.

That and we can argue his personnel decisions later in his career, but he put down the foundation that ultimately saw the Ravens win a Super Bowl in 2000. Someone posted the list years ago, and that staff was behind part of the group that was still on that roster.

Again, while his current decisions annoy me, I can't discount what he did and who he was earlier in his career. I think, at the end, he was a little worn down and looking for a faster fix rather than a long-term solution, and didn't have the patience he probably should have and that likely impacted his decision-making personnel-wise. And honestly, had Josh not left, it's possible they would have remained competitive, and the dive might not have happened as rapidly as it did.

But considering the fact that every Super Bowl came down to the wire, as much as we can credit Brady, they probably don't beat the Rams without Belichick as the head coach, or Philly, or Carolina thanks to how they played defensively. Not to mention, he made the players believe they could win, and he never faltered in the spotlight in big games. We see that every January, and it's definitely a fact that can't be discounted.

Sucks that he's gone a bit off the rails, but 73-year-old Bill won't make me forget or not appreciate what 50-something-year-old+ Bill did. Again, I don't think we win a title without him. Albeit, to flip it around, probably safe to say he sabotaged himself from winning 1-2 more. But it is what it is. I'm not going to be mad about not winning 7-8 vs the fact that they still won six.

 

[Thelonious]

Bill was the best coach, probably of all time, for a long stretch, but his last few years were lousy: a failed GM and a failing HC. His megalomania and narcissism rose to near-pathological levels and he became unable to hear anything he did not want to hear, which never works in any sort of leadership position. He surrounded himself with people he assumed never would question him, nearly irrespective of their abilities. At this point, in the present, I just feel sorry for him, and I hope somebody who cares about him can arrest the downward slide., I understand the more avid Bill fanboys will not believe me when I say I wish him the best, but I do, as I would for anybody in his spot.

I answered Vrabel, because the question is framed in the present tense. If it were the best coach ever in Pats's history I would certainly have said Bill, if it were in the history of the league, I would have said probably yes.

 

[Ian]

Bill was the best coach, probably of all time, for a long stretch, but his last few years were lousy: a failed GM and a failing HC. His megalomania and narcissism rose to near-pathological levels and he became unable to hear anything he did not want to hear, which never works in any sort of leadership position. He surrounded himself with people he assumed never would question him, nearly irrespective of their abilities. At this point, in the present, I just feel sorry for him, and I hope somebody who cares about him can arrest the downward slide., I understand the more avid Bill fanboys will not believe me when I say I wish him the best, but I do, as I would for anybody in his spot.

I answered Vrabel, because the question is framed in the present tense. If it were the best coach ever in Pats's history I would certainly have said Bill, if it were in the history of the league, I would have said probably yes.

I've been glad to see him steady things a bit there and would like to see him succeed at UNC. Again, I'm not a fan of where he's at personally, but I certainly don't hold any ill will against him and absolutely appreciate everything he did. Despite my annoyance with the sideshow he's created around him, I'd still like to see him do well and give us a nice little side thing to keep an eye on each Saturday. I hope they finish out the year on a positive note and that his career there continues.

 

[TheButlerDidIt]

Present day, i would take Vrabel -- just potentially a better "fit" for the players and today's game.

But Belichick is the best to have ever done it -- hands down.

 

[sb1]

I do disagree with this. Again, he turned the franchise around and made them competitive before getting the rug pulled out from underneath him thanks to Modell moving the team. We all watched the documentary and saw what went down behind the scenes in that final season, they probably would have gone back to the playoffs and made a deeper run had that not happened.

That and we can argue his personnel decisions later in his career, but he put down the foundation that ultimately saw the Ravens win a Super Bowl in 2000. Someone posted the list years ago, and that staff was behind part of the group that was still on that roster.

I just feel like in many ways Bill just wasn't ready for prime time as a head coach back then. That's not unusual. Kind of like Pete here in the late 90's. The relationships he had with his players and the media without the track record he was to develop in the next couple of decades was a toxic mess and couldn't have ended well. I feel like that was the biggest reason why he was not invited to move on to Baltimore.

But now it feels like like perception is reality - with Bill's lack of success after Brady left all this is all part of his story now.

Again, while his current decisions annoy me, I can't discount what he did and who he was earlier in his career. I think, at the end, he was a little worn down and looking for a faster fix rather than a long-term solution, and didn't have the patience he probably should have and that likely impacted his decision-making personnel-wise. And honestly, had Josh not left, it's possible they would have remained competitive, and the dive might not have happened as rapidly as it did.

Agreed. He lost me with the MP/JJ fiasco. That's a coach whose stubbornness and unwillingness to evolve was ultimately derailed his last few years here.

But considering the fact that every Super Bowl came down to the wire, as much as we can credit Brady, they probably don't beat the Rams without Belichick as the head coach, or Philly, or Carolina thanks to how they played defensively. Not to mention, he made the players believe they could win, and he never faltered in the spotlight in big games. We see that every January, and it's definitely a fact that can't be discounted.

Oh yeah I don't think anyone should discount that. Just that there's another part to his whole story.

Sucks that he's gone a bit off the rails, but 73-year-old Bill won't make me forget or not appreciate what 50-something-year-old+ Bill did. Again, I don't think we win a title without him. Albeit, to flip it around, probably safe to say he sabotaged himself from winning 1-2 more. But it is what it is. I'm not going to be mad about not winning 7-8 vs the fact that they still won six.

Agreed.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Starting in the 2000's, nobody could match Bill and his coaching staff during the 1st dynasty. It was stacked. Weiss, Crennel, Scarnecchia, Eric Mangini, Rob Ryan, Pepper Johnson, Brian Daboll, Brad Seely, Scott Pioli, Ernie Adams, Thomas Dimetroff and Nick Caserio.

During the later years, the well was running extremely dry leading to Bill's downfall along with his age. He can't do everything himself even though he may have wanted to. Bill was at his best when he had other guys he trusted that could challenge him.

 

[maust]

Vrabel.

Belichick is a ****.

For most of two decades we loved that about him. Funny how it only became an issue once he lost a step

 

[Ian]

I just feel like in many ways Bill just wasn't ready for prime time as a head coach back then. That's not unusual. Kind of like Pete here in the late 90's. The relationships he had with his players and the media without the track record he was to develop in the next couple of decades was a toxic mess and couldn't have ended well. I feel like that was the biggest reason why he was not invited to move on to Baltimore.

The record and what he was doing, though, sort of is what it is. When you look at it on paper, it looks like a disaster. When you take into account the added context of where they were and what went on, it looks significantly different.

What I'm essentially saying is I disagree that he was terrible in Cleveland because the on-field results and the direction they were headed in is far different than the perception people still have. I remember when he started off poorly here, it was certainly a talking point here both back in 2000 when they went 5-11 (I was there at the stadium every week until the final game that year, it got ugly as the year went on). And it was obviously brought back up again by the media after Brady left.

I remember getting into it with someone on here about it, and again, in my opinion, that documentary was damning from Modell's standpoint, along with just how ugly of a situation it created. It's hard to say what might have happened if Modell hadn't up and moved them. We also don't have a comp when it comes to seeing how another coach might have handled a situation like that any better.

After all, that entire mess was completely unprecedented. Those players all had families, lives, etc. I remember Richard Seymour's story that came out when he didn't respond initially when he was traded to Oakland. It was because he was absolutely shellshocked and had to get things with his family sorted before he was ready to deal with it as a player. Imagine that happening with an entire roster.

Again, I get that people feel the way they feel, given the last five years. But knowing what we know, the context behind that part revealed that he wasn't as terrible as people made him out to be. Granted, like everyone else, he learned from the experience. But for people to say he was awful there as a coach, media interactions aside, I still don't feel he was as bad as people make it seem.

 

[sb1]

The record and what he was doing, though, sort of is what it is. When you look at it on paper, it looks like a disaster. When you take into account the added context of where they were and what went on, it looks significantly different.

What I'm essentially saying is I disagree that he was terrible in Cleveland because the on-field results and the direction they were headed in is far different than the perception people still have. I remember when he started off poorly here, it was certainly a talking point here both back in 2000 when they went 5-11 (I was there at the stadium every week until the final game that year). And it was obviously brought back up again by the media after Brady left.

I remember getting into it with someone on here about it, and again, in my opinion, that documentary was damning from Modell's standpoint, along with just how ugly of a situation it created. It's hard to say what might have happened if Modell hadn't up and moved them. We also don't have a comp when it comes to seeing how another coach might have handled a situation like that any better.

After all, that entire mess was completely unprecedented. Those players all had families, lives, etc. I remember Richard Seymour's story that came out when he didn't respond initially when he was traded to Oakland. It was because he was absolutely shellshocked and had to get things with his family sorted before he was ready to deal with it as a player. Imagine that happening with an entire roster.

Again, I get that people feel the way they feel, given the last five years. But knowing what we know, the context behind that part revealed that he wasn't as terrible as people made him out to be. Granted, like everyone else, he learned from the experience. But for people to say he was awful there as a coach, media interactions aside, I still don't feel he was as bad as people make it seem.

I feel like the problem was he went right in there guns blazing without the track record to back it up. He should have understood that building relationships with the media (and by extension fans) and his players mattered. Felt kind of like what we saw later from Matt Patricia with the Lions. Of course BB figured that out with the Patriots and the results speak for themselves.

I think in the end Modell reneged does not invite him to the Ravens because he was despised by people that matter more than liked.

 

[signbabybrady]

You guys are sidetracking this thread. There are at least 3 other Bill hate threads you could have this discussion in.