Tyron Smith

[manxman2601]

What's the boards view on this guy? There hasn't been as much discussion about the potential LT vacancy on the board as there has Defensive End and pass rush. However, looking at the team contacts list, a first round LT looks a real possibility with most of the top ones working out or visiting.

Tyron Smith is the one the draft crowd view as having the franchise LT upside and if we were to take him it would have to be at 17 should he fall*.

I can't really speak to his upside (haven't see enough) but there looks to be three obvious concerns:

1. He's only played at RT in his college career.
2. It's only during this draft process that he's got anywhere near the required weight for the position.
3. He's very young and may need more coaching than a more experienced LT like Castonzo and thus represents a risk @17.

I'm not saying he shouldn't be the pick, obviously if the Pats think these issues aren't insurmountable then great.

Is there a consensus view here about the LT order for the Pats? If Smith is there @17, would BB take him or trade down with a team hotter on Smith?

* He'd have to get past Dallas (DE/OLB/CB), Vikings (QB/DE) and the Lions (Amukamara).

 

[Dufflebagz]

I can't seperate the top 3 OT's in the draft. I like Smith, Carimi, and Castonzo for different reasons but equally. I don't see Smith falling to 17 but if he did, I would be happy if BB takes him.

 

[Metaphors]

1. He's only played at RT in his college career.

USC has an elite LT in Matt Kalil who will be a top 5 pick next year. Smith wasn't at RT for any other reason.

2. It's only during this draft process that he's got anywhere near the required weight for the position.

He looked like he carried this weight well, but this is a yellow flag. There were times when he got blown up by bull rushes at USC. He needs this weight to anchor and teams will have to evaluate if he can maintain it.

3. He's very young and may need more coaching than a more experienced LT like Castonzo and thus represents a risk @17.

He has 2 full years starting so I'm not sure age is an issue. USC turns out some solid linemen so I'm not sure one more year would make that big a difference in his technique.

Smith has great feet and hands (IMO the best in this draft). The questions for me were around his ability to anchor and to finish. He has put on the weight and showed a nastier demeanor in his draft prep. It that is a sign of development and not just being a workout warrior, then he is a legit top 10 prospect.

Smith has excellent technique in pass protection. He just doesn't get beaten wide, which separates him from Solder and Castonzo. With the amount of smaller speed rushers in the NFL, that is huge. He has the raw skills to excel in the running game but didn't show it in college. USC is a finesse team so need to determine if his performances were a result of the scheme or his temperament.

If the Pats stick in the mid 1st, I can only see 4 targets...T.Smith, A.Smith, Jordan and Watt. If the Pats are looking for an OT, I would like to see T.Smith or Carimi early. Outside of the tackle-to-guard conversions, this class at tackle is less than inspiring. Much better prospects in 2012.

 

[conway]

Since BB drafted Hernandez at 20 yo, I dont think age will be an
issue. Smith looks more like a DE and might be the most cut OT draft prospect ever. And I think the position requires athleticism more than ever. I think BB is more likely to wait, however, and draft Carpenter with 2b or possibly Carimi with 1a. I havent seen much discussion about Carimi but Ot is really a bigger need and Carimi looks great on paper. I dont much care for the builds of Solder and Castonzo.

 

[Peachhead]

I like Carimi the best of the 1st round OTs. But I don't know if his style wouild translate to the Pats that well. I also really like Smith. I think his style and athleticism translate perfectly to the Pats. I view him as almost a carbon copy of Vollmer.

But I'd be astounded if he made it to 17. Above all, I would still prefer a DE at 1a. The only way I'd be happy with Smith is if Watt and Jordan went way earlier than expected and it wasn't practical to trade up.

If Carimi or Constanzo make it to #33 (unlikely) I would break a speed record turning the card in.

I flat don't like Solder unless he takes a huge tumble to the mid-2nd, which I really doubt. I hope Indy takes him in the late 1st.

 

[Patriot Missile]

He has got a hint of bust to me. He's hard to project because we didn't get to see him on film play a whole lot of LT. Sure he's athletic but if you aren't a left tackle you aren't being picked by me at 17. Dante would know best if he fits at LT. It's tough to evaluate without any film.

The other thing I take issue with is his weight. 30 pounds of muscle over the course of 4 or 5 months. You come into my gym and we are thinking different thoughts. Yellow flag as someone mentioned. Certainly not impossible, but suspicious non the less. Serious homework to be done on this kid. Boom or bust to me.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Cowboys will take T. Smith at #9. I think it's risky to take a guy who's that young and has only played RT at the college level to be your LT. But scouts seem to think he can play LT. So who knows, he could be a good one. But he won't last till 17. I'd rather take Carpenter to play RT in the late 2nd early 3rd and save my 1st for the stud DE.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

NE plays a hybrid man/zone blocking scheme, NE OL have to be able to drive block on one play, and be quick enough to get to their zone assignment on the next. NE favors kids who are dancing bears in pass protection who quickly transition to stampeding wildebeest in front of running backs, receivers, and tight ends for screens. NE OL don't just block on the second level against linebackers between the tackles, they have to play in space. Agile, mobile, hostile - it's a job requirement.

I like watching O-line play, but I'm not the most gifted analyst when it comes to breaking down a player's skillset on my TV (with all those helpful camera shots of ankles and helmets and crowds). To compensate I use a blend of my lying eyes, NFL Draft Scout profiles, and some specific Combine/Pro-Day drill numbers.

Historically, NE seems to favor "starters" who can generate enough leg drive to push 300 lbs 30" or more in a vertical jump. Mankins 31.5", Kaczur 31.5", Vollmer 36.5". I have no jump data for Light (though as a converted TE he probably skyed okay too), Koppen had 28.5" but he was also a fifth round pick. Neal never went through the Combine or a Pro-Day, but he was a world class wrestler and anyone watching him move around a football field had little doubt about him. That 30" benchmark seems pretty solid; they've had successful reserves who didn't get that high - Hochstein reached 26.5" (5th round via Tampa), Connolly 28.5" (undrafted via JAX) - but "starter" is the operative word when assessing if a kid has the type of leg drive NE seems to prefer.

The next thing which stands out about NE starters is agility numbers. 4.5 second short shuttles and 7.5 second 3-cone drills or better seems to be preferred if they are going to take a kid high. Mankins 4.5/7.5, Light 4.5/7.3, Vollmer 4.5/7.5. Klemm is the other OL drafted in the top two rounds, I have no data on him, but he was switching from OT to TE and back while at Hawaii, so I'd say he was athletic enough. The next two highest drafted OL, I have no data on Kenyatta Jones (FWIW he was a basketball player for USF which suggests good foot speed) and Kaczur has 4.8/7.7 for his agility.

So, by the numbers:
-- Ty Smith: 4.7/7.5, 29" (fresh off knee rehab)
-- Tony Castonzo: 4.4/7.3, 29.5"
-- Gabe Carimi: ??/??, 31.5"
-- Nate Solder: 4.3/7.4, 32"
-- Derek Sherrod: 4.6/7.4, 28"
-- Jim Carpenter: 4.8/7.6, 28.5"
-- Ben Ijalana: 4.7/7.8, 25.5" (fresh off sports hernia surgery)
-- Dan Watkins: 4.6/7.6, 26"

With the exception of Ty Smith, these are all college left tackles. Ijalana and Watkins are projected inside to guard by most draftniks, but Watkins has been discussed as a good right tackle and Ijalana is still considered by some to be worth consideration at left tackle in the NFL.

By the numbers:
-- Smith is borderline with mitigating injury factors and the fact he just packed on 20+ lbs and is still growing into his new body.
-- Castonzo is a shade below desirable in one measure.
-- Carimi's lack of agility numbers is troubling because that's one area he gets negative reviews on from film.
-- Solder meets the mark.
-- Sherrod is probably a third rounder.
-- Carpenter is probably a fourth rounder.
-- Ijalana is definitely day three with those numbers coming from a small school, injury or no.
-- Watkins is a day three pick.

By my lying eyes watching a TV screen:
-- Smith is a big question mark, I watched USC to check him out and he did nothing one way or another while I was watching. (The left tackle Kalil was a stud.)
-- Castonzo is meh. He's there, he's playing, he's keeping the QB clean and he's hitting someone, but I don't see the fire or nasty Scar loves.
-- Carimi is a run blocking beast, pass protection is okay. If he was an inch shorter I'd move him inside (for a hawg team like Philly or Dallas or Pittsburgh - not NE's stampeding wildebeest brigade).
-- Solder, he's raw, but he moved people, looks like a young Vollmer on my TV.
-- Sherrod is okay, like Castonzo, okay.
-- Carpenter, I thought he would make a good NE guard the first time I saw him and nothing since has changed that.
-- Ijalana, one game, he seemed to have it all, but it was an FCS semi-final, so good competition, but not SEC.
-- Watkins, loved him.

Is Smith a franchise left tackle as Manx asks? Probably, I'm just not sure that franchise is NE, but he did take a visit to Gillette and Scar was at his Pro-Day.

If I'm ranking them:
1. Solder
2. ??? probably Jah Reid, move Vollmer to LT and see if this kid can beat Kaczur and LeVoir for RT.

EDIT: One other factor to consider is the coaching relationship connection.
-- Ty Smith's O-line coach, was the O-line coach for the 2007 and 2008 Oakland Raiders.
-- Castonzo, BC and Scar have a long relationship.
-- Carimi, none I can see.
-- Solder's O-line coach transitioned Tom Ashworth from TE to LT; NE's new asst. S&C coach was the asst. S&C coach at Colorado last season, and worked with Mankins and Wendell at Fresno State.
-- Sherrod, the O-line coach was at Florida and coached Hernandez.
-- Carpenter, BB and Saban. His O-line coach retired, he was an OL coach and OC in the NFL for years so I'm sure Scar and BB new him.
-- Ijalana, his O-line coach has been there 12 years, we know NE likes their safeties.
-- Watkins, his O-line coach worked with Vollmer at Houston.

 

[manxman2601]

NE plays a hybrid man/zone blocking scheme, NE OL have to be able to drive block on one play, and be quick enough to get to their zone assignment on the next. NE favors kids who are dancing bears in pass protection who quickly transition to stampeding wildebeest in front of running backs, receivers, and tight ends for screens. NE OL don't just block on the second level against linebackers between the tackles, they have to play in space. Agile, mobile, hostile - it's a job requirement.

I like watching O-line play, but I'm not the most gifted analyst when it comes to breaking down a player's skillset on my TV (with all those helpful camera shots of ankles and helmets and crowds). To compensate I use a blend of my lying eyes, NFL Draft Scout profiles, and some specific Combine/Pro-Day drill numbers.

Historically, NE seems to favor "starters" who can generate enough leg drive to push 300 lbs 30" or more in a vertical jump. Mankins 31.5", Kaczur 31.5", Vollmer 36.5". I have no jump data for Light (though as a converted TE he probably skyed okay too), Koppen had 28.5" but he was also a fifth round pick. Neal never went through the Combine or a Pro-Day, but he was a world class wrestler and anyone watching him move around a football field had little doubt about him. That 30" benchmark seems pretty solid; they've had successful reserves who didn't get that high - Hochstein reached 26.5" (5th round via Tampa), Connolly 28.5" (undrafted via JAX) - but "starter" is the operative word when assessing if a kid has the type of leg drive NE seems to prefer.

The next thing which stands out about NE starters is agility numbers. 4.5 second short shuttles and 7.5 second 3-cone drills or better seems to be preferred if they are going to take a kid high. Mankins 4.5/7.5, Light 4.5/7.3, Vollmer 4.5/7.5. Klemm is the other OL drafted in the top two rounds, I have no data on him, but he was switching from OT to TE and back while at Hawaii, so I'd say he was athletic enough. The next two highest drafted OL, I have no data on Kenyatta Jones (FWIW he was a basketball player for USF which suggests good foot speed) and Kaczur has 4.8/7.7 for his agility.

So, by the numbers:
-- Ty Smith: 4.7/7.5, 29" (fresh off knee rehab)
-- Tony Castonzo: 4.4/7.3, 29.5"
-- Gabe Carimi: ??/??, 31.5"
-- Nate Solder: 4.3/7.4, 32"
-- Derek Sherrod: 4.6/7.4, 28"
-- Jim Carpenter: 4.8/7.6, 28.5"
-- Ben Ijalana: 4.7/7.8, 25.5" (fresh off sports hernia surgery)
-- Dan Watkins: 4.6/7.6, 26"

With the exception of Ty Smith, these are all college left tackles. Ijalana and Watkins are projected inside to guard by most draftniks, but Watkins has been discussed as a good right tackle and Ijalana is still considered by some to be worth consideration at left tackle in the NFL.

By the numbers:
-- Smith is borderline with mitigating injury factors and the fact he just packed on 20+ lbs and is still growing into his new body.
-- Castonzo is a shade below desirable in one measure.
-- Carimi's lack of agility numbers is troubling because that's one area he gets negative reviews on from film.
-- Solder meets the mark.
-- Sherrod is probably a third rounder.
-- Carpenter is probably a fourth rounder.
-- Ijalana is definitely day three with those numbers coming from a small school, injury or no.
-- Watkins is a day three pick.

By my lying eyes watching a TV screen:
-- Smith is a big question mark, I watched USC to check him out and he did nothing one way or another while I was watching. (The left tackle Kalil was a stud.)
-- Castonzo is meh. He's there, he's playing, he's keeping the QB clean and he's hitting someone, but I don't see the fire or nasty Scar loves.
-- Carimi is a run blocking beast, pass protection is okay. If he was an inch shorter I'd move him inside (for a hawg team like Philly or Dallas or Pittsburgh - not NE's stampeding wildebeest brigade).
-- Solder, he's raw, but he moved people, looks like a young Vollmer on my TV.
-- Sherrod is okay, like Castonzo, okay.
-- Carpenter, I thought he would make a good NE guard the first time I saw him and nothing since has changed that.
-- Ijalana, one game, he seemed to have it all, but it was an FCS semi-final, so good competition, but not SEC.
-- Watkins, loved him.

Is Smith a franchise left tackle as Manx asks? Probably, I'm just not sure that franchise is NE, but he did take a visit to Gillette and Scar was at his Pro-Day.

If I'm ranking them:
1. Solder
2. ??? probably Jah Reid, move Vollmer to LT and see if this kid can beat Kaczur and LeVoir for RT.[/B

]EDIT: One other factor to consider is the coaching relationship connection.
-- Ty Smith's O-line coach, was the O-line coach for the 2007 and 2008 Oakland Raiders.
-- Castonzo, BC and Scar have a long relationship.
-- Carimi, none I can see.
-- Solder's O-line coach transitioned Tom Ashworth from TE to LT; NE's new asst. S&C coach was the asst. S&C coach at Colorado last season, and worked with Mankins and Wendell at Fresno State.
-- Sherrod, the O-line coach was at Florida and coached Hernandez.
-- Carpenter, BB and Saban. His O-line coach retired, he was an OL coach and OC in the NFL for years so I'm sure Scar and BB new him.
-- Ijalana, his O-line coach has been there 12 years, we know NE likes their safeties.
-- Watkins, his O-line coach worked with Vollmer at Houston.

Thanks to you all, but a special thanks to Box for another excellent O/Line lesson. So Solder it is then. It's funny you mention the Vollmer comparison, it's not the first time I've seen that. He's also the one I see most often mocked to the Pats and coincidentally, was the top LT on that "fake" big board at the Patriots press conference. Coincidence? I don't think so

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Thanks to you all, but a special thanks to Box for another excellent O/Line lesson. So Solder it is then. It's funny you mention the Vollmer comparison, it's not the first time I've seen that. He's also the one I see most often mocked to the Pats and coincidentally, was the top LT on that "fake" big board at the Patriots press conference. Coincidence? I don't think so

For the record, I'm often wrong at guessing whom NE will draft. But I follow my lying eyes and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Metaphors]

By my lying eyes watching a TV screen:
-- Smith is a big question mark, I watched USC to check him out and he did nothing one way or another while I was watching. (The left tackle Kalil was a stud.)
-- Castonzo is meh. He's there, he's playing, he's keeping the QB clean and he's hitting someone, but I don't see the fire or nasty Scar loves.
-- Carimi is a run blocking beast, pass protection is okay. If he was an inch shorter I'd move him inside (for a hawg team like Philly or Dallas or Pittsburgh - not NE's stampeding wildebeest brigade).
-- Solder, he's raw, but he moved people, looks like a young Vollmer on my TV.
-- Sherrod is okay, like Castonzo, okay.
-- Carpenter, I thought he would make a good NE guard the first time I saw him and nothing since has changed that.
-- Ijalana, one game, he seemed to have it all, but it was an FCS semi-final, so good competition, but not SEC.
-- Watkins, loved him.

Pretty much on the same page as you. Couple of additional thoughts:

I'm higher on T.Smith than you, but I can see where your perspective comes from. USC is a finesse team and Smith tended to look "finesse" too often. He is technically the most complete tackle in this class so if he is able to play meaner, he is too skilled not to consider.

Carimi in pass protection is hard to evaluate. The Badgers run constantly so he had a TE next to him more times than not. Also, Tolzien moved around in the pocket like his feet were on fire. I didn't see anything wrong with Carimi in pass protection but he is more of a projection there than a LT at a major program should be. That risk may drop him to the Pats at #28 or #33.

I like Solder's skill set in workouts but that didn't translate to the field last year. Not a dominate run blocker and he let too much trash get into the pocket on pass plays. Too many question marks for a 1st round grade.

Watkins is a nasty SOB and that sounds mighty appealing as a Neal replacement. Given his age and the fact that he will get little to no prep time before the season starts, his value is less than it should be. You really don't want to spend a 1st round pick in a top heavy draft on a guy that likely won't contribute until he is almost 28.