Top 100 debate Brady vs Manning

[D-Money]

We need to beat the dolts this year.It seems like they have had our number the last couple of years.That was a huge meltdown last year.I hope it doesnt happen again.

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

I think Tom Brady's overall long term stock rises and falls not whether TB gets another ring but how well Matt Cassell and the Chiefs do.

The strongest case against Tom Brady is 7th round pick that hadn't played since high school came off the bench and won 11 games. If in the end Matt Cassell is judged to only be a mediocre QB, than that is very strong case that Brady is not elite but just very good in an elite system. OTOH, if Matt Cassell goes on to have a HOF career or close to it that knock goes away.

Brady put up historical numbers, took his team undefeated against a hard schedule to the Super Bowl.
Cassel took virtually the same team against a super easy schedule and lost 5 games and missed the playoffs.

Not sure how it is a knock on Brady. Cassell also had how many years behind Brady? 3? I don't recall, but it wasn't like he was a rookie who didn't know the team.

 

[ligermark]

The strongest case against Tom Brady is 7th round pick that hadn't played since high school came off the bench and won 11 games. If in the end Matt Cassell is judged to only be a mediocre QB, than that is very strong case that Brady is not elite but just very good in an elite system. OTOH, if Matt Cassell goes on to have a HOF career or close to it that knock goes away.

That is a ridiculous argument. In 2008, the Patriots had their easiest schedule since 2001. They played the AFC West and NFC West, with the Cardinals being the only team in both divisions that was over .500, and they only went 9-7. Cassell also got to play the worst Colts team since 2002, and wasn't able to beat them. Also note that an average Dolphins team went from 1-15 to 11-5 with a similar schedule that year, and the Jets with Favre and his 22 picks finished at 9-7.

In general, just because a back-up plays well for an injured player does not downgrade the injured player. For example, because the Falcons in 2003 struggled with Doug Johnson doesn't make Michael Vick a better QB. It means that Doug Johnson wasn't any good.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Brady:

Wins- 103
Interceptions- 103

This standard will never again be approached in NFL history.

 

[jmt57]

That is a ridiculous argument. In 2008, the Patriots had their easiest schedule since 2001. They played the AFC West and NFC West, with the Cardinals being the only team in both divisions that was over .500, and they only went 9-7. Cassell also got to play the worst Colts team since 2002, and wasn't able to beat them. Also note that an average Dolphins team went from 1-15 to 11-5 with a similar schedule that year, and the Jets with Favre and his 22 picks finished at 9-7.

In general, just because a back-up plays well for an injured player does not downgrade the injured player. For example, because the Falcons in 2003 struggled with Doug Johnson doesn't make Michael Vick a better QB. It means that Doug Johnson wasn't any good.

You and I and most other Pats fans know that. And in 2008 opposing fans knew that when they wanted to talk negatively about Belichick, the Pats and their playoff chances.

However, if opposing fans want to talk negatively about Brady then this is a convenient piece of 'evidence' for them. Likewise, if they want to talk negatively about Belichick then Brady will suddenly be the GOAT, they'll point to BB's won-loss record in Cleveland, and ignore or discount anything with the Giants because he was 'only' a DC there and it was all Parcells.

It's just the way it is. Unfortunately many in the media also act like fans - or offer opinions based not on what they believe to be true, but on what they believe will stir debate among fans.

 

[Brettlax3434]

If you were to somehow find some people who were familiar with football as a sport but not with Brady or Manning in particular and laid out the evidence for each, I'd bet a paycheck that the overwhelming majority would point to Brady as the historically better QB.

However, fans can't avoid the bias. Announcers/analysts like and respect Brady, but they love Manning. For example, he gets effusive praise for things like winning a few games with a few different no-name receivers this year (not counting the future HOF-er, of course ), when Brady has done it, apparently unnoticed, for his entire career. Manning came off a minor knee surgery, played like ass for half a season, and wins MVP. Brady comes off major knee surgery, has his second-best year (with numbers that surpassed Manning's MVP campaign), and everyone thinks he underperformed.

Conversely, any facts that could be used to diminish his image in any way (the dome advantage, for example, or the awful playoff numbers) are never addressed. He never gets called out for throwing blame around. Brady gets killed for "choking" in the SB when the last time he touched the ball with a real chance to do anything, he put them ahead...Manning throws the sealing pick-6 in the SB, and people fall all over themselves to blame the receiver.

Manning does a zillion commercials and is down to Earth, Brady marries a supermodel, still avoids the spotlight as much as possible, and is "too Hollywood" (even to a lot of dummy Pats fans).

Manning gets superhero nicknames like "Captain America" from guys with mancrushes ("The Sheriff?" Really, Jon?). Brady's still seen as a system QB by a disturbing number of people.

He's that guy some of us know who's made of Teflon. He's very good at his job most of the time, but no matter how he screws up, nothing sticks to him. Everyone else thinks he can do no wrong, and you keep wondering why. Tomlinson's another one.

That's just the way it is.

Personally, I would never want him over Brady. Ever. Especially when it gets cold.

I couldn't say that better.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

What I've always wondered is why Bill Polian does not share the same enthusiasm as most NFL pundits. You'd think that Polian would want to win a championship by letting Manning get his 4500 yards with a bunch of garbage players around him, which obviously would happen, right?

If you look at the way the Colts have drafted, I'm not sure there's a team in NFL history that has better equipped their quarterback, who apparently doesn't need them because he is so uniquely unbelievable and can win with anyone.

The following are the FIRST ROUND picks under Manning, all skill position players on offense (by the way, Marvin Harrison and Marshall Faulk were already there):

Edgerrin James
Reggie Wayne
Dallas Clark
Joseph Addai
Anthony Gonzalez
Donald Brown

Again, we're just talking about skill position offensive players. If you count Harrison and Faulk, that's 8 that Manning has had in his career. I'm not sure any other QB has been this spoiled with riches, but it's funny to hear over and over how Manning makes them who they are, despite that they were first round talent.

 

[Jetssuck]

Another thing I've noticed is that people who have made up their mind that Manning is better will gush over the simplest of accomplishments if it is done by Manning.

One of Manning's latest acts of "amazingness" was when he took a sixth round draft pick and made him into a great receiver. This sixth round draft pick had an "unprecedented" 765 yards receiving. I did a search at pro-football-reference.com just to see how rare it was for an NFL player undrafted or drafted in the sixth round or later to have 765 or more yards receiving in a season. I found that it was so rare that it has only happened 378 times in NFL history.

How does Manning with Garcon compare to what Brady has done with Welker, Brown, Patten, or Givens, all of whom were drafted latter than the sixth round or not even drafted at all?

2009 Wes Welker Undrafted 1348 yards with Brady
2001 Troy Brown 8th round 1199 yards with Brady
2007 Wes Welker Undrafted 1175 yards with Brady
2002 Troy Brown 8th round 890 yards with Brady
2004 David Givens 7th round 874 yards with Brady
2002 David Patten Undrafted 824 yards with Brady
2004 David Patten Undrafted 800 yards with Brady
2009 Pierre Garcon 6th round 765 yards with Manning

 

[convertedpatsfan]

That is a ridiculous argument. In 2008, the Patriots had their easiest schedule since 2001. They played the AFC West and NFC West, with the Cardinals being the only team in both divisions that was over .500, and they only went 9-7. Cassell also got to play the worst Colts team since 2002, and wasn't able to beat them. Also note that an average Dolphins team went from 1-15 to 11-5 with a similar schedule that year, and the Jets with Favre and his 22 picks finished at 9-7.

That's an important point. The schedule was a huge factor. And when looking at 2007, I forgot just how difficult that season was.

We played the NFC East and AFC North, probably the two most physical divisions. The NFC East had 0 teams below .500 that year. We beat 6 teams that finished with 10 wins or more, including 4 division winners. And we did it while winning by an average of 19 points per game.

In 2007, only the Pats had a record above .500. In 2008, 3 teams finished above .500, with only the Bills finishing below that mark at 7-9. In 2007, only the Pats outscored their opponents on the season, with the Jets finishing second at (-87). In 2008 against a weaker schedule, all AFC East teams outscored their opponents except for Buffalo, which finished -6.

 

[SVN]

i think being with BB hurts brady's stock in such discussions. Manning runs the offense, no one really cares who the coach is , even manning sends the punt team back. All his actions on the line of scrimmage and control of the offense make people take notice more. Plus like it or not, he is great consistent passer and the colts have been a consistently very good offense. Pats have rebuilt themselves in so many ways so it doesnt nearly get the attn

 

[Jetssuck]

Manning calling his own plays has been been given as a reason for Manning being better than Brady.

Dan Marino and Joe Namath also called their own plays. Are they better than Joe Montana who, like Brady, didn't call his own plays?

 

[pats60]

How good would Brady be if he played in a dome half the time?

 

[Fixit]

How good would Brady be if he played in a dome half the time?

Seeing as his QB rating, completion %, YPG, and YPA are all significantly higher indoors, I'd say pretty good.

 

[TriplecHamp]

I love how people are harping on the fact that the Colt have so many injuries and Manning is still playing well (even though he still has Wayne). Do they forget who Brady was throwing to up until 2007?

 

[coolguy]

Seeing as his QB rating, completion %, YPG, and YPA are all significantly higher indoors, I'd say pretty good.

LOL not to mention his division has been garbage and has great weather for decades.
Titans have sucked and have great whether
jags have sucked and have excellent whether
texans have sucked and play in a dome
LOL thats how peyton got most of his stats and hs 12+ wins a season