Time For A Rant

[manxman2601]

I'm absolutely amazed that some people on this board can be so critical of BB's record in the draft. It can be argued that in the SB era history of the NFL there has been no dynasty as long sustained as the one under BB's Patriots (depending on how you define a dynasty). And for the second half of that dynasty, there have been NO significant FA acquisitions (big money/years). How do people think we get to where we are today without the draft?

If you think in terms of the teams star players, there are only two that weren't drafted by the Patriots or signed as UDFA's (Welker, Woodhead). Going back to 2000, 15 of our 24 starters were Patriot draftees (K/P included). The core of this team almost all came through the draft. And all that despite picking towards the end of the first round in almost every year. And yet we were a minute or so from winning the Superbowl, are comfortable concerning the cap and have more picks in the first two rounds of the draft than any other team. And yet people are going on about what a lousy drafter BB is. Incredible.

Judging BB's abilities in the draft by focusing on the misses and completely ignoring the significant hits seems to me to be an intellectually dishonest approach - every team has misses but can they claim as many significant hits?

OK. Rant over.

 

[PatsFaninME]

I agree 1000%. Belichick frustrates some fans by making smart decisions instead of emotional ones. He is the best in the business and probably the best there has ever been and fans don't appreciate it. I'm embarrased for most Patriots fans.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm absolutely amazed that some people on this board can be so critical of BB's record in the draft. It can be argued that in the SB era history of the NFL there has been no dynasty as long sustained as the one under BB's Patriots (depending on how you define a dynasty). And for the second half of that dynasty, there have been NO significant FA acquisitions (big money/years). How do people think we get to where we are today without the draft?

If you think in terms of the teams star players, there are only two that weren't drafted by the Patriots or signed as UDFA's (Welker, Woodhead). Going back to 2000, 15 of our 24 starters were Patriot draftees (K/P included). The core of this team almost all came through the draft. And all that despite picking towards the end of the first round in almost every year. And yet we were a minute or so from winning the Superbowl, are comfortable concerning the cap and have more picks in the first two rounds of the draft than any other team. And yet people are going on about what a lousy drafter BB is. Incredible.

Judging BB's abilities in the draft by focusing on the misses and completely ignoring the significant hits seems to me to be an intellectually dishonest approach - every team has misses but can they claim as many significant hits?

OK. Rant over.

The actual draft picks from 2006-2008 turned out to be lousy in the end, and 2009 ended up being far less impressive than initially thought. That's 4 years of disappointing to horrible overall drafting, and it led to a clear drop in the team's overall talent. It shouldn't be surprising that people call him out for that.

On the positive side, 2010 was an excellent draft and 2011 still has potential.

Lastly, if you're going with the "dynasty" point, that nod goes to SF.

 

[UK_Pat37]

I don't think you can be completely uncritical of Belichick. 2006-2009 wasn't spectacular.

2006

1 - Laurence Maroney
2 - Chad Jackson
3 - Garrett Mills
4 - Stephen Gostkowski
5 - Ryan O'Callaghan
6 - Jeremy Mincey, Dan Stevenson. Le Kevin Smith
7 - Willie Andres

2007

1 - Brandon Merrweather

IMO I'm not even going to list the EIGHT other draftees as none of them are here anymore...

2008

1 - Jerod Mayo
2 - Terrence Wheatley
3 - Shawn Crable
3 - Kevin O'Connell
4 - Jonathan Wilhite
5 - Matthew Slater
6 - Bo Ruud

Mayo and Slater the only hits.

2009

2 - Pat Chung
2 - Ron Brace
2 - Darius Butler
2 - Sebastian Vollmer
3 - Brandon Tate
3 - Tyrone McKenzie
4 - Rich Ohrnberger
5 - George Bussey
6 - Jake Ingram
6 - Myron Pryor
7 - Julian Edelman
7 - Darryl Richard

Chung is a hit but still shaky in coverage and I'm not sure if he's turned into the leader of the secondary they want him to be just yet. Brace is a queston amrk whilst Vollmer is a hit. Butler flopped, as did Tate...Edelman was a steal.

But looking at this drafting record over those 3 years, they missed on A LOT. Especially corners which we're still paying for right now and will further if we're forced to take another one in this draft.

But what I don't agree with is people's criticising of him trading down. Just because it isn't stylish to the fans, doesn't mean that it isn't right...I agree whole heartedly with what he does and think it's a good reason why this team is still competitive for 11th season running. Five Super Bowl appearances doesn't lie IMO.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

2007

1 - Brandon Merrweather

IMO I'm not even going to list the EIGHT other draftees as none of them are here anymore...

I'm willing to grant everything else, but 2007 was sui generis. The Patriots already had what was seen as one of the most impressive rosters (they'd already added Welker, Stallworth, and Washington; Kyle Brady at TE; Adalius Thomas at LB, etc.); AND this was widely seen as one of the weakest drafts in recent memory. (Fun fact: 2006 was the most recent year where the Pats didn't trade at least one pick forward. . . . I wonder why?)

I'm convinced the Pats would have gotten rid of their tradeable late round picks in 2007 if they could have found a suitable partner, but they couldn't.

 

[Off The Grid]

There are ~ and have always been, and will always be ~ 3 kinds of fans, just as their are 3 kinds of political philosophies, every where in the world, and even here in New EngLand, which is blessed with an Heritage unique and unrivaled in the Galaxy, but is no more immune to the infestation of the Ignorant, than is any other place on the Globe:

1 ~ Those Who See No Wrong

These folks are distinguished by such statements as:

"In Bill We Trust."

"Tom Brady is GOD."

"If you don't think Bill is PERFECT, you're an idiot."

2 ~ Those Who See No Right

These folks are distinguished by such statements as:

"Bill is an IDIOT."

"Tom Brady SUCKS."

"Gresh and Feltcher are intelligent men who offer insightfull analysis."

3 ~ The Rational Few Who Admire But Thoughtfully Criticize

These folks are distinguished by:

Charm.

Brilliance.

Stunning good looks.

 

[captain stone]

3 ~ The Rational Few Who Admire But Thoughtfully Criticize

These folks are distinguished by:

Charm.

Brilliance.

Stunning good looks.

Why thank you, brother OTG.

 

[MaineMan]

I'm absolutely amazed that some people on this board can be so critical of BB's record in the draft. It can be argued that in the SB era history of the NFL there has been no dynasty as long sustained as the one under BB's Patriots (depending on how you define a dynasty). And for the second half of that dynasty, there have been NO significant FA acquisitions (big money/years). How do people think we get to where we are today without the draft?

If you think in terms of the teams star players, there are only two that weren't drafted by the Patriots or signed as UDFA's (Welker, Woodhead). Going back to 2000, 15 of our 24 starters were Patriot draftees (K/P included). The core of this team almost all came through the draft. And all that despite picking towards the end of the first round in almost every year. And yet we were a minute or so from winning the Superbowl, are comfortable concerning the cap and have more picks in the first two rounds of the draft than any other team. And yet people are going on about what a lousy drafter BB is. Incredible.

Judging BB's abilities in the draft by focusing on the misses and completely ignoring the significant hits seems to me to be an intellectually dishonest approach - every team has misses but can they claim as many significant hits?

OK. Rant over.

Yeah. Good luck with this.

The folks who are critical of BB's drafts will often decry his strategy of trading down because lower picks are likely to have lesser impact since they're lesser players - and then turn around and total up all the Pats picks over a certain period to show that his percentage of "hits" was terrible - as if a 5th-round OL or a 6th-round DE should become something better than a reserve or PS guy, as if late round picks are equal to 2nd-rounders in calculating success rate.

The critics also almost never stop to analyze the hill that draftees have to climb to make a specific year's roster, much less become a starter over an incumbent. They also almost never stop to analyze the quality of the prospect crop at specific positions in a given draft - such as the WRs after the 2nd round in 2006 or the CBs after the 2nd in 2008.

For instance, I often read how Wilhite was a worthless waste of a draft pick. He was with the Pats three years as a #4 corner, a barely adequate one but still about average for a 4th-round CB (even including Asante Samuel when calculating that average) and still probably better than just about any corner taken in 2008 after the end of the 2nd round. Apparently, that result doesn't count for squat, which leads me to question general expectations people have about any untested rookie.

It is what it is, and no rational argument that attempts to put things in a broader perspective is ever, ever going to change any critic's set-in-stone negative take. They simply aren't willing to listen.

I know. I've tried. And I've given up.

 

[bwhit33]

as a fan of another team, i dont necisarrily like the guy; but i sure as hell would want him running my team. Genius gets thrown around a little too losely, but he's more like a mad scientist.(had to refrain from using mad hatter... les miles is a p o s.)

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Yeah. Good luck with this.

The folks who are critical of BB's drafts will often decry his strategy of trading down because lower picks are likely to have lesser impact since they're lesser players - and then turn around and total up all the Pats picks over a certain period to show that his percentage of "hits" was terrible - as if a 5th-round OL or a 6th-round DE should become something better than a reserve or PS guy, as if late round picks are equal to 2nd-rounders in calculating success rate.

The critics also almost never stop to analyze the hill that draftees have to climb to make a specific year's roster, much less become a starter over an incumbent. They also almost never stop to analyze the quality of the prospect crop at specific positions in a given draft - such as the WRs after the 2nd round in 2006 or the CBs after the 2nd in 2008.

For instance, I often read how Wilhite was a worthless waste of a draft pick. He was with the Pats three years as a #4 corner, a barely adequate one but still about average for a 4th-round CB (even including Asante Samuel when calculating that average) and still probably better than just about any corner taken in 2008 after the end of the 2nd round. Apparently, that result doesn't count for squat, which leads me to question general expectations people have about any untested rookie.

It is what it is, and no rational argument that attempts to put things in a broader perspective is ever, ever going to change any critic's set-in-stone negative take. They simply aren't willing to listen.

I know. I've tried. And I've given up.

I don't mind the trading down and think it is a good way to take advantage of the win-now mentality in the league but (you know there would be a but) I hate the way BB pees away second and third round picks; you would think he was Pete Carroll peeing away picks. Just off the top of my head... "Richie" Cunningham, Darius Butler, Taylor "Not-Lawrence" Price, "Bethel" Tate, Tyrone McKenzie, Terrace "Glass wrists" Wheatley, Shawn Crable, Kevin O'Connell, Chad Jackson,... and Ron Brace and Shane Vereen have yet to show much...it seems like more than half (maybe 2/3) of the second / third round picks are busts so what's the point of trading down if you are going to waste the extra picks?

OK maybe I am being a curmudgeon on this; maybe league-wise there is a 2/3 failure rate on second and third round picks....in that case it might not be so wise to deal 1 round picks for seconds....

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I don't mind the trading down and think it is a good way to take advantage of the win-now mentality in the league but (you know there would be a but) I hate the way BB pees away second and third round picks; you would think he was Pete Carroll peeing away picks. Just off the top of my head... "Richie" Cunningham, Darius Butler, Taylor "Not-Lawrence" Price, "Bethel" Tate, Tyrone McKenzie, Terrace "Glass wrists" Wheatley, Shawn Crable, Kevin O'Connell, Chad Jackson,... and Ron Brace and Shane Vereen have yet to show much...it seems like more than half (maybe 2/3) of the second / third round picks are busts so what's the point of trading down if you are going to waste the extra picks?

OK maybe I am being a curmudgeon on this; maybe league-wise there is a 2/3 failure rate on second and third round picks....in that case it might not be so wise to deal 1 round picks for seconds....

To be fair to Belichick, you're conflating two things: players who should never have been drafted (Crable, O'Connell), and players that didn't work because of injuries (especially McKenzie).

The other thing to point out is that they're generally using an "annuity" approach where a single first-rounder gives them an extra second or third EVERY year until they need it.

 

[Sfpat]

I don't mind the trading down and think it is a good way to take advantage of the win-now mentality in the league but (you know there would be a but) I hate the way BB pees away second and third round picks; you would think he was Pete Carroll peeing away picks. Just off the top of my head... "Richie" Cunningham, Darius Butler, Taylor "Not-Lawrence" Price, "Bethel" Tate, Tyrone McKenzie, Terrace "Glass wrists" Wheatley, Shawn Crable, Kevin O'Connell, Chad Jackson,... and Ron Brace and Shane Vereen have yet to show much...it seems like more than half (maybe 2/3) of the second / third round picks are busts so what's the point of trading down if you are going to waste the extra picks?

OK maybe I am being a curmudgeon on this; maybe league-wise there is a 2/3 failure rate on second and third round picks....in that case it might not be so wise to deal 1 round picks for seconds....

They may not have been able to succeed with the Patriots, but most, if not all of them (I think even Chad Jackson) are still in the league.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

To be fair to Belichick, you're conflating two things: players who should never have been drafted (Crable, O'Connell), and players that didn't work because of injuries (especially McKenzie).

The other thing to point out is that they're generally using an "annuity" approach where a single first-rounder gives them an extra second or third EVERY year until they need it.

Annuity is fine as long as you spend it wisely when it comes due....but I am not seeing it. Maybe I am being unrealistic and not every second and third rounder can make it....

I had high hopes for McKenzie alas.

 

[SpaceOdyssey]

Bill's offensive drafts have been hits, but his defensive drafts have been horrible (let's be honest here...). Do you think its time for a general manager to install objectivity ;P?

 

[MP-Logick]

Bill's offensive drafts have been hits, but his defensive drafts have been horrible (let's be honest here...). Do you think its time for a general manager to install objectivity ;P?

No. And no again.

 

[captain stone]

For instance, I often read how Wilhite was a worthless waste of a draft pick. He was with the Pats three years as a #4 corner, a barely adequate one but still about average for a 4th-round CB (even including Asante Samuel when calculating that average) and still probably better than just about any corner taken in 2008 after the end of the 2nd round. Apparently, that result doesn't count for squat, which leads me to question general expectations people have about any untested rookie...

Orlando Scandrick (taken after Wilhite, and more highly-regarded than Wilhite
by Everybody pre-draft) says What?

Nice try; thanks for playing.

 

[Mark Morse]

I understand the trade down theory! BB has the players ranked according to his scouting methodolgy. He doesn't give a damn what the so called experts think and he trusts the scouts he has working for him. Lets say the 31st pick he has three CB's he likes, all with similar grades, but none high enough to pick at #31. He has to get one of them! He trades back to where he is comfortable one will be available. If there is a run on CB's he trades back up to get one.

Of all the trades he has made, the two that I was most uncomfortable with were the Green Bay trades that allowed them to select Matthews and Jennings.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

I understand the trade down theory! BB has the players ranked according to his scouting methodolgy. He doesn't give a damn what the so called experts think and he trusts the scouts he has working for him. Lets say the 31st pick he has three CB's he likes, all with similar grades, but none high enough to pick at #31. He has to get one of them! He trades back to where he is comfortable one will be available. If there is a run on CB's he trades back up to get one.

Of all the trades he has made, the two that I was most uncomfortable with were the Green Bay trades that allowed them to select Matthews and Jennings.

I'm 100% fine with the Matthews trade.
We got Gronk over him. I'll take Gronk 100 times out of 100. He is a VITAL key piece to our offense. We saw that in the SB.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I understand the trade down theory! BB has the players ranked according to his scouting methodolgy. He doesn't give a damn what the so called experts think and he trusts the scouts he has working for him. Lets say the 31st pick he has three CB's he likes, all with similar grades, but none high enough to pick at #31. He has to get one of them! He trades back to where he is comfortable one will be available. If there is a run on CB's he trades back up to get one.

Of all the trades he has made, the two that I was most uncomfortable with were the Green Bay trades that allowed them to select Matthews and Jennings.

Yes, I agree, BB should not answer the phone when GB calls.

Overall I think BB does a very good job of selecting players. Part of the problem is that we do not have a lot of development openings on our roster and part of the problem is the competition level in our camp for opneings is very high and UDFA's and draft picks alike get graded equally for those openings.

My 2 biggest issues with BB are

1.) his refusal to address the OLB position via the draft leading to a reliance on JAG talent for this key position in his defense.

2.) his track record of loses in the third round. It is almost comical how bad his record is in this round. If ever there was a round where he needs to trade away picks, this is it.

Everything else I am fine with. Although I hope in this draft he goes back to the D line for help there first; however Brockers and Cox are soaring up draft boards and all we could be left with at #27 is another DB and then a trade of #31. I did hear on Sirius that DeCastro is falling due to the fact that teams project him as a pure OG. He would be a great fit for us especially if he can play Center.

 

[Boomer B]

I understand the trade down theory! BB has the players ranked according to his scouting methodolgy. He doesn't give a damn what the so called experts think and he trusts the scouts he has working for him. Lets say the 31st pick he has three CB's he likes, all with similar grades, but none high enough to pick at #31. He has to get one of them! He trades back to where he is comfortable one will be available. If there is a run on CB's he trades back up to get one.

Of all the trades he has made, the two that I was most uncomfortable with were the Green Bay trades that allowed them to select Matthews and Jennings.

According to the War Room book, he doesn't always trust his scouts. They advised him not to pick L. Maroney and C. Jackson and he did so anyways. Maybe he should listen to them more.

I do agree with the poster who said what is the point of trading back for extra picks in the 2nd and 3rd round when we miss on so many of them. Maybe it's time to move up in the draft and acquire talent on D.