The Pulse of out of towners, AV = were doomed

[Displaced - Fan]

Average kicker? Are you nuts?

Look, I'm not ready to write off the season because Adam is gone. He is still just a K, and only played a few times every game.

That said, don't take away from the guy.

He is 7th all-time in NFL history in FG accuracy (81.9%), despite playing the majority of his career with a home field that is difficult to kick in. He is one of only 2 kickers to get 100 points in 10 consecutive seasons, which speaks to his consistency. He is second in NFL playoff history in points (117, trailing only Gary Anderson's 153).

Adam is far from average, he is a great K.

At least someone is sane on this board. The guy was the best Clutch kicker of all time. He kicked in one of the most difficult outdoor stadiums and was probably the best bad weather kicker of all time. You guys are trying to justify loosing a great player.

Now I'm not dooming the Pats because of the loss, by all means I'm very excited about the upcoming season. But gees, give the guy his due!!

 

[Miguel]

That is very misleading.

The fact the Patriots like to sign veteran role players for depth pushes their "average age" higher. Look at their starting lineup.

On offense, the entire unit, other than Dillon, is pretty young.

WR Deion Branch 27
LT Matt Light 28
LG Logan Mankins 24
C Dan Koppen 28
RG Stephen Neal 29
RT Nick Kaczur 27
TE Ben Watson 25
FB Patrick Pass 28
RB Corey Dillon 31
QB Tom Brady 29
WR Reche Caldwell 27
RDE Richard Seymour 26
DT Vince Wilfork 24
LDE Ty Warren 24
LB TBC 26
LB Rosevelt Colvin 29
LB Tedy Bruschi 32
LB Mike Vrabel 31
CB Ellis Hobbs 23
CB Asante Samuel 25
S Antrell Hawkins 29
FS Eugene Wilson 26
LS Lonie Paxton 28
P Josh Miller 36
K Gostkowski 22
Total 684
Average 27.36
27.36 is not that much younger than 27.53.

 

[NE39]

WR Deion Branch 27
LT Matt Light 28
LG Logan Mankins 24
C Dan Koppen 28
RG Stephen Neal 29
RT Nick Kaczur 27
TE Ben Watson 25
FB Patrick Pass 28
RB Corey Dillon 31
QB Tom Brady 29
WR Reche Caldwell 27
RDE Richard Seymour 26
DT Vince Wilfork 24
LDE Ty Warren 24
LB TBC 26
LB Rosevelt Colvin 29
LB Tedy Bruschi 32
LB Mike Vrabel 31
CB Ellis Hobbs 23
CB Asante Samuel 25
S Antrell Hawkins 29
FS Eugene Wilson 26
LS Lonie Paxton 28
P Josh Miller 36
K Gostkowski 22
Total 684
Average 27.36
27.36 is not that much younger than 27.53.

OK, but other than Dillon, Bruschi and Vrabel, there is no regular starter (offense and defense) over 30. That's pretty good.

I think the most misleading stat is the "average age" stat. What does it mean? You can have a team of young guys, but if they all suck does it matter?

Looking at that list, the Pats took care of Dillon by drafting Maroney. The core of the team is in their prime.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Pats1:

I agree that the Pats lost a declining kicker, aging outside linebacker and solid #2 reciever, who will now be a highly paid #1.

I think our worries about wide reciever depth may have been answered in the draft and free agency, but remain somewhat of a concern.
I think our worries about outside linebacker are covered pretty well, its inside linebacker where we don't have depth. We also have unknowns in the secondary.
I am not at all worried about the kicker, we have a strong-legged rookie for kick-offs and a once pro-bowl veteran for field goals, who is supposed to be over his injury of the last two years.

The media writing us off because of a kicker, whether the best ever or not, is simply stupid.

One thing that I have noticed from many, many internet posts is that fans forget we are actually 10-1, not 9-1 in the playoffs. The Jaguars butt-whipping seems to not make it into everyone's stats! Sorry to correct a senior member, of course! We were 10-0 headed into the Denver game!

 

[shakadave]

WR Deion Branch 27
LT Matt Light 28
LG Logan Mankins 24
C Dan Koppen 28
RG Stephen Neal 29
RT Nick Kaczur 27
TE Ben Watson 25
FB Patrick Pass 28
RB Corey Dillon 31
QB Tom Brady 29
WR Reche Caldwell 27
RDE Richard Seymour 26
DT Vince Wilfork 24
LDE Ty Warren 24
LB TBC 26
LB Rosevelt Colvin 29
LB Tedy Bruschi 32
LB Mike Vrabel 31
CB Ellis Hobbs 23
CB Asante Samuel 25
S Antrell Hawkins 29
FS Eugene Wilson 26
LS Lonie Paxton 28
P Josh Miller 36
K Gostkowski 22
Total 684
Average 27.36
27.36 is not that much younger than 27.53.

Thanks for the great data.

I don't think younger is better. I think there is an ideal age. I can't put a number on it, but the ideal age is "the oldest age before physical skills start to decline." Mentally, players keep improving, so you want to find that optimal point when a player is mentally developed but not yet physically in decline. So a 27-year-old is usually a better player than they were the year before, and so is a 28-year-old. At RB we seem to see a pattern of decline starting around 30. Some other positions, the decline comes later. I think I would rather have a QB when he's 31 than when he's 29. Our current starting lineup seems to be the perfect age!

 

[wcda]

I kind of look at it this way. If I were in New England and asked about the falcons. The reaction I get would not be very positive. Probably would be the same about any team I asked about.

 

[Miguel]

I think the most misleading stat is the "average age" stat.

The actual number is not what was important to me. The ranking is. I was trying to show that the Patriots were one of the older teams in the NFL last year and even with all of their moves this offseason they will remain one of the older teams in the NFL.

Saying that the Pats are a young team is what is misleading.

 

[Miguel]

EXACTLY...You hit the nail right on the head....The average age of a tem includes all the backups and the ones that rarely play...

Here were the starters on Week 1 in 2005 and their ages
Branch 26
Light 27
Mankins 23
Koppen 27
Neal 28
Ashworth 28
Graham 26
Watson 24
Dillon 30
Brady 28
Givens 25
Seymour 25
Wilfork 23
Warren 23
Chad Brown 35
McGinest 33
Beisel 27
Vrabel 30
Poole 33
Samuel 24
Harrison 32
Wilson 25
Paxton 27
Miller 35
Adam 31
Average 27.8

The average for the team was 27.53 so the starters were in fact older than the backups.

I love it when persons contend that I have presented misleading facts and then themselves are misleading.

 

[patsfan13]

My guess is that youth is well served in some positions and experience in others by BB/SP.

 

[RayClay]

Last year the Patriots were the 3rd oldest team (27.53 years) based on the ages of the players on the Week 1 rosters. Even with the loss of several 30 plus players (Adam, Poole, Starks, Willie), I expect the Pats to remain one of the oldest teams in the NFL. Caldwell is older than Givens. Tebucky is the same age as Starks.

I don't think the statistical average means much. You really have to evaluate age/talent level at each position, taking into consideration that a talented vet usually is better depth than a rookie.

At linebacker, the Pats are showing some age with Bruschi while Vrabel, Colvin will still be in their prime for the near future. A dramatic drop in the aveage age at linebacker would actually be bad in the short term, because it would mean top players being replaced by 6th round picks and UDFA.

The DL is a tremendous blend of young talented players 1-4, signed up for a while. If the lard ass from N.O. turns it around this line will be incomparable.

The Pats lucked out with 3 young CBs and a safety who've played pretty well under tough circumstances. Again, I'm not worried about the average age, but more talent will be needed when that average drops dramatically post Harrison and Hawkins. I don'r care if Hawkins is 50, he was a great stabilizing force and hopefully he and Harrison will have safeties ready to go when they do.

On offense, Brady's in his prime. TE's are young. We could use some more receivers, but if we get a year or two from some vets I won't mind since our top 3 are quite young, (assuming Caldwell shows something).

Our running back situation is quite old, but we've made the biggest step. I imagine 3rd down, fullback backup RB will be addressed, maybe Mills moves in.

OLine? More talented each year and mostly signed.

Linebacker needs the most talent upgrade, but it's funny that if Phifer and Johnson were playing, for some reason, they'd probably be better in the short run.

When your starters are aging, you have problems, but vet backups with only a year or two left are often good values. Won us a title in 2001.

 

[RayClay]

That is very misleading.

The fact the Patriots like to sign veteran role players for depth pushes their "average age" higher. Look at their starting lineup.

On offense, the entire unit, other than Dillon, is pretty young.

On defense, they are very young (and good) on the DL. Their secondary is a mix of younger and older players. Really the only "older" unit is the LB corps.

The Pats have a young group of players that ashould allow them to remain competitive for the near future. They will continue to add veterans to the mix for depth, but the reason the Pats are able to sustain success is they do a good job of developing a core to build around in the draft.

Good post. I think I took 5 times as much space to say basically the same thing.

 

[RayClay]

Here were the starters on Week 1 in 2005 and their ages
Branch 26
Light 27
Mankins 23
Koppen 27
Neal 28
Ashworth 28
Graham 26
Watson 24
Dillon 30
Brady 28
Givens 25
Seymour 25
Wilfork 23
Warren 23
Chad Brown 35
McGinest 33
Beisel 27
Vrabel 30
Poole 33
Samuel 24
Harrison 32
Wilson 25
Paxton 27
Miller 35
Adam 31
Average 27.8

The average for the team was 27.53 so the starters were in fact older than the backups.

I love it when persons contend that I have presented misleading facts and then themselves are misleading.

McGinest Harrison Poole and Chad Brown are gone.

If you count Chad Brown as a starter that means Bruschi helps bring the average age down, combining him with any other on the roster.

If Goskowski replaces Vinatieri, we get quite a bit younger, though I'm not sure that's a good thing.

 

[Haterproof]

There seems to be a lot of psychics on this site.Can some you look through your crystal balls and tell me what the Lottery numbers are going to be this week?I would really love to hit the Jackpot.Tell Ms.Cleo I said Hi.

 

[Willie55]

Miller throws the equation way out of whack because of his age (35 last year, 36 this year) I wonder what the average age for punters in the league is?

Edit: Miguel, pardon my ignorance, but why did you use only 25 players?

BTW, taking Miller out of the equation makes the average 25.92

 

[Miguel]

McGinest Harrison Poole and Chad Brown are gone.

NEM was talking about 2005 so I used 2005 data. The data was talking about the age of the players on the 2005 kickoff rosters.

If you count Chad Brown as a starter that means Bruschi helps bring the average age down, combining him with any other on the roster.

Chad Brown was the Week 1 starter which is why I included. I like to compare apples to apples. IMO,it would be misleading to compare the average age of the kickoff roster to the average age of the starters and then not use Chad Brown as the starter.

If Goskowski replaces Vinatieri, we get quite a bit younger, though I'm not sure that's a good thing.

That's comparing 2005 to 2006. I was comparing 2005 to 2005.

 

[Miguel]

Edit: Miguel, pardon my ignorance, but why did you use only 25 players?

Because NE30 and NEM contended that using the average age was misleading because the Patriots starters was so much younger than the backups. That was not true in 2005 and probably will not be true in 2006.

 

[Murphys95]

It's nice to see that so many Pats fans are part of the glass half-full mode. I see no reason to doubt their success in 2006. Then again, throughout the years of watching the NFL, I realize that anything, and I mean anything, can happen. My hopes remain the same every year: 9-7 and a shot at the playoffs. If they do better, I'm ecstatic.

How do all casual out-of-town fans feel about the Patriots? I couldn't tell you. However, the "casual" fans I have spoken with are tired of New England winning. Casual fans I know like to see something new each year - so by default, they root against the Patriots. I don't have a problem with that. It's natural to root for the underdog. And no, the Patriots are not the underdog right now.

As for the argument that Adam Vinatieri was average except for a couple of great "clutch" plays? I think that's outrageously wrong. Joe Montana might be considered average without a TD pass to Dwight Clark in '82 and John Taylor in '88.

Think about it people - great players make great plays. That's what defines their careers. New England will miss Adam. I wish him well and I hope Goko and Grammatica can fill his shoes.

 

[zippo59]

Sticking with the youth discussion, Vince Wilfork and Ty Warren both made Gil Brandt's All Under 25 Defensive Team at DT and DE respectively. Ellis Hobbs was also considered for CB but was bumped for Deangelo Hall and Nathan Vasher. Still pretty good company.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/9493926

 

[PatsFanInVa]

McGinest Harrison Poole and Chad Brown are gone.

Say it ain't so, Rodney! Dang. He sure does sweat the workouts a lot for a guy no longer with the club. How'd he get into the charity golf tourney?

PFnV

 

[italian pat patriot]

I am at a trade show in Orlando and this has been a great chance for me to ask my clients what they feel about the Pats and football in general.

We are doomed according to the dozens of people that know me and are from out of town. They ALL pretty much feel letting AV go (that is how they think it came down) was a huge mistake and marks the end of this dynasty.

I tell them we have a possible decent rookie or at least a retread veteran ready to kick, Either way, I explain, we will make our share of feld goals and most, if not all of our extra points. Further - kickoff field position should actually improve. But they do not buy it and do not even feel we will win the division.

I tell them I feel this has been an excellent off season for us, key resignings a few key veteran FA's and an outstanding draft. They should get ready to see the continuation of Patriot domination and am I willing to take bets!!

What are you all hearing from those not around the New England area??

fgssand: more or less is the reaction of the NFL football fans here in Italy too...and of course they are wrong too...

they will see soon...