The Patriots offensively line in context

[rkarp1]

the draft decisions and coaching decisions listed on this thread are dated back to 2018 and 2016 respectively. the mess is on Wolf's doorstep, but he has been in charge for all of 8 months. included in his short tenure, Andrews out for the season, Robinson and Wallace's rookie progress interrupted with injuries.
where would this offense be with Thuney and Shaq retained?
the team has both draft and dollar resources available. they also now have a player at QB that free agents would wish to join, where as last year the teams QB situation was a complete unknown other than a career back up.
a rebuild as massive as this will take more than one offseason

 

[Mike the Brit]

That O-line actually doesn't look that great, LOL, but you wonder about the talent level then. Wynn was a bust, Karras is a marginal center and a horrible guard, Andrews and Onwenu are still here, and Shaq Mason is a shell of himself and has been for the last 3 years.

But you're right that collectively they were better. As for Bricillo, he left to go with McDaniels, right?

Yes. That's just my point.

You only need decent-to-good players to have a good O-line, provided it is well coached.

And, yes, McDaniels took the entire offensive staff with him with the exception of Caley. So the Pats were dependent on Judge-Patricia (and, of course, BB).

@upstater1

Did you happen to notice who was playing Left Tackle for the Lions recently? None other than Dan Skipper -- a free agent too bad even to make your excellent list!

 

[Ring 6]

the draft decisions and coaching decisions listed on this thread are dated back to 2018 and 2016 respectively. the mess is on Wolf's doorstep, but he has been in charge for all of 8 months. included in his short tenure, Andrews out for the season, Robinson and Wallace's rookie progress interrupted with injuries.
where would this offense be with Thuney and Shaq retained?
the team has both draft and dollar resources available. they also now have a player at QB that free agents would wish to join, where as last year the teams QB situation was a complete unknown other than a career back up.
a rebuild as massive as this will take more than one offseason

I don’t understand why people keep making that comment. In a league of parity there is no way “will take more than one offseason” should ever be said.

A team that is at least average quality at all spots with a couple of top players to elevate them is a contender.
Washington did it in one offseason, and frankly no one was farther away than them.
With all of the cap space that we gave there is no reason at all that you can’t surround Maye with an average OL and weapons and have him turn into top 10. There is no reason you can’t surround Barmore, White, Gonzales and Duggar with solid non-liability players to make a strong defense.

The problem is we just went through an off season where we did very poorly choosing free agents (like worst ever caliber) and are getting less than nothing from the entire draft after Maye.
Aside from Maye everything we did this offseason actually made the team worse. Think about that.

 

[upstater1]

Yes. That's just my point.

You only need decent-to-good players to have a good O-line, provided it is well coached.

And, yes, McDaniels took the entire offensive staff with him with the exception of Caley. So the Pats were dependent on Judge-Patricia (and, of course, BB).

@upstater1

Did you happen to notice who was playing Left Tackle for the Lions recently? None other than Dan Skipper -- a free agent too bad even to make your excellent list!

Hahaha, I did not see Skipper.

So this is a damn indictment of bringing in 30 different guys over 5 years (none for the practice squad) and only 2 playing like they're good pros.

Yet Dan Skipper is the LT for the best team.

Don't know what to say anymore. I have very little confidence that drafting anyone is going to change things.

 

[captain stone]

the draft decisions and coaching decisions listed on this thread are dated back to 2018 and 2016 respectively. the mess is on Wolf's doorstep, but he has been in charge for all of 8 months. included in his short tenure, Andrews out for the season, Robinson and Wallace's rookie progress interrupted with injuries.
where would this offense be with Thuney and Shaq retained?
the team has both draft and dollar resources available. they also now have a player at QB that free agents would wish to join, where as last year the teams QB situation was a complete unknown other than a career back up.
a rebuild as massive as this will take more than one offseason

But except for Maye, Ron Wolf's boy has already wasted an ENTIRE offseason.

 

[Vindicate]

But except for Maye, Ron Wolf's boy has already wasted an ENTIRE offseason.

When Wolf left Green Bay, a lot of the discussion mirrored the discussion RE: Steve B. and Mayo - Mayo was in the right spot, a coach of a solid defense. However none of us knew how much it was him.

Wolf was similar. Played a role in a solid front office, which lead people to think he was worth keeping (and him being the son of Ron definitely helped) and promoting to GM, but instead they went with Gute.

Apparently Rodgers wanted to keep him. Who, as we've seen, is an incredible scout and makes really good decisions like hating all of his coaches.

It's hard to really tell what ever qualified Wolf for the job. I'm not out on him, I'm just curious what sold the Patriots FO on him.

 

[upstater1]

When Wolf left Green Bay, a lot of the discussion mirrored the discussion RE: Steve B. and Mayo - Mayo was in the right spot, a coach of a solid defense. However none of us knew how much it was him.

Wolf was similar. Played a role in a solid front office, which lead people to think he was worth keeping (and him being the son of Ron definitely helped) and promoting to GM, but instead they went with Gute.

Apparently Rodgers wanted to keep him. Who, as we've seen, is an incredible scout and makes really good decisions like hating all of his coaches.

It's hard to really tell what ever qualified Wolf for the job. I'm not out on him, I'm just curious what sold the Patriots FO on him.

Probably when Kraft was brought to tears when his good friends, the other owners, tried to help him out of his situation by offering a guy with an outstanding pedigree who would surely revive the Patriots. They did him a solid

 

[Mike the Brit]

Don't know what to say anymore. I have very little confidence that drafting anyone is going to change things.

It's not just the coaching, but the coaching is a big part of it.

I was at the game and the replays on the video screen mostly suck so I didn't see what happened with the strip-sack on Sunday and thought it must be Maye's fault, but looking at it now ... my goodness! The guy peels off Jordan and stunts for the right A-gap. Onwenu (cap hit = $11m) doesn't notice him to his left, Stevenson (cap hit = $5m) has gone wandering upfield, so ... wham! Poor Drake!

I've been watching some of Edelman's videos and learning more about the legend of Dante Scarnecchia (Edelman clearly has some bromance thing going with offensive linemen). Matt Light told the story about how he helped out with the rookie skits one year and did it as a commercial for Dante Scarnecchia's M*therf*cking Instructional Course, with all of Dante's sayings that he remembered.

Speaker 2​

Now what makes Dante's Scarnecchia such a great coach?​

​

Speaker 1 (01:18:33):​

First of all, it's a combination, like if you want​

to talk about an angry, angry ihndividual, just mix -- I'm​

dead serious, man, and you don't see this very often --​

when Italians and Mexicans mate, you get a Dante Scarnecchia.​

You see what I'm saying? Like, like there's something in there, man,​

because like very driven, very like like fiery.​

​

Speaker 2 (01:19:19):​

Him, right Oh. He scared people.​

​

Speaker 1 (01:19:20):​

Hell yeah, and he coached like some of the​

biggest monsters out there, and we were all like, yep,​

we got you, coach.​

​

2010 Week 16 with Matt Light | Patriots vs. Bills - Games with Names | iHeart

<p>Matt Light is in studio! We're breaking down the AFC East clinching game from Week 16 of the 2010 season and the wild aftermath with Patriots Hall of Famer, 3 time Super Bowl champ, and 11 year NFL vet, Matt Light. Matt joins us on the couch (1:18). We go back to December of 2010 (58:10). We...

www.iheart.com

​

And Richie Incognito, who's clearly a friend of Edelman's, was talking about how he used to watch Mankins because he was another Left Guard and Mankins had been so well coached.

I've no idea whether the new Pats O-line coach is good. Given what he's had to work with, it's a miracle that they have any kind of a line. On the other hand, he comes as a package with AVP, which doesn't encourage me at all.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Great coaching can make marginal players into decent starters.
But our offensive line has terrible players and terrible coaching!!!!!

 

[Toofy]

the draft decisions and coaching decisions listed on this thread are dated back to 2018 and 2016 respectively. the mess is on Wolf's doorstep, but he has been in charge for all of 8 months. included in his short tenure, Andrews out for the season, Robinson and Wallace's rookie progress interrupted with injuries.
where would this offense be with Thuney and Shaq retained?
the team has both draft and dollar resources available. they also now have a player at QB that free agents would wish to join, where as last year the teams QB situation was a complete unknown other than a career back up.
a rebuild as massive as this will take more than one offseason

Bengals got back in 2 years with burrow
That should be our goal.

 

[n1997y]

Did you happen to notice who was playing Left Tackle for the Lions recently? None other than Dan Skipper -- a free agent too bad even to make your excellent list!

So, how’s that working out for them? How’s their season going?

/s for the sarcasm impaired members here

 

[n1997y]

Great coaching can make marginal players into decent starters.
But our offensive line has terrible players and terrible coaching!!!!!

What makes players terrible? Or good?

Performance comes down to execution, which is ability and effort driven by motivation. There are two main components to ability: innate talent, and learned skill. Innate talent is the only one of those elements that is not dependent on good coaching. Most of our OL, like any player drafted into the NFL, have a lot of innate talent. They need good coaching to turn that talent into performance.

OL play depends on the line playing together as a unit. Each player needs to develop their own skills, hand placement, footwork, moves and countermoves, etc. Those need to be coached, or the player has to figure them out individually. Coaching is a whole lot better. But then each player needs to coordinate with the other players on the line. They can’t see that well enough to figure it out by themselves. They need good coaching, and guess what? Results don’t show they’re getting it. Rams strip sack is an example, where a stunt didn’t get blocked and a turnover resulted in a gift TD.

I really believe that if we had Scar coaching the present OL roster we would have a decent NFL offensive line, at least average and most likely better than average. But we don’t have Scar. We have a bunch of raw talent, and we have terrible coaching, based on the results we’re seeing.

 

[KCSVEN]

I really believe that if we had Scar coaching the present OL roster we would have a decent NFL offensive line, at least average and most likely better than average. But we don’t have Scar. We have a bunch of raw talent, and we have terrible coaching, based on the results we’re seeing.

I find that hard to believe, Brady got sacked 40 times in 2013 and Scar had an all-pro guard in Mankins and also had Nate Solder in his prime. Along with Brady at the height of his abilities as a processor and one of the fastest releases in the NFL.
He was a good coach but people think he's some savant that could take crap talent to all-pro.
2017 the line was not great and Brady got sacked at 5.68% rate. 3rd highest in his career.
Tampa Bay had a 7% sack rate in 2019 the next year with Brady it was 3%.

He always had the GOAT and some high-end line talent in 1 or 2 spots while THIS years Patriots starting line has ZERO players drafted in the first 3 rounds and many of them released from multiple other teams.

 

[KCSVEN]

Drake Maye is playing behind the worst pass protecting offensive line any rookie has ever had to play behind....and still succeeding
2006-2024 is forever to me HA

The horizontal grid is decreasing success rate on blocking. Maye is behind a line with a 47% or so pass block win rate, Bryce Young was behind a line his rookie Season at about 53% success rate. Justin Herbert and Watson are really the only other outlier that succeeded with really bad line play. However, Maye's line is almost 15% worse than those lines were.

Maye is about 4 turnovers away from having that EPA per drop back be off the grid....

This is for the ROOKIE seasons of each player.

 

[Clonamery]

He always had the GOAT and some high-end line talent in 1 or 2 spots while THIS years Patriots starting line has ZERO players drafted in the first 3 rounds and many of them released from multiple other teams.

That's a shame, you must spend hours weeping in the dark for Maye.

 

[TomPatriot]

In defense of Wolf, he changed the scouting rating process just after he was hired, but too late for this draft. I’d like to see how the next draft goes with the new process.

Drafts are hard to evaluate after one year but so far, like most people here are saying, other than Maye, the 2024 Pats draft is looking a little shaky.

 

[TomPatriot]

I find that hard to believe, Brady got sacked 40 times in 2013 and Scar had an all-pro guard in Mankins and also had Nate Solder in his prime. Along with Brady at the height of his abilities as a processor and one of the fastest releases in the NFL.
He was a good coach but people think he's some savant that could take crap talent to all-pro.
2017 the line was not great and Brady got sacked at 5.68% rate. 3rd highest in his career.
Tampa Bay had a 7% sack rate in 2019 the next year with Brady it was 3%.

He always had the GOAT and some high-end line talent in 1 or 2 spots while THIS years Patriots starting line has ZERO players drafted in the first 3 rounds and many of them released from multiple other teams.

The nicest thing I can say about this post is that I strongly disagree with it.

Mankins and Solder were good players in large part because of Scar. Compare year 1 to year 2+ for each player,

What about Neal, Andruzzi, Kaczur, Vollmer, etc.? He made most of those guys into above average linemen. That’s a huge deal and really hard to do.

 

[Wozzy]

Easily one of the worst offensive lines in the league, bottom 3 for sure.

The QB’s and RB’s have done an admirable job making them look better than dead last. Wolf botched it.

 

[lancerman]

Going with......."The Patriots offensive, offensive line in context ".........would sound far less ******ed.

It still wouldn’t be as ******ed as the Patriot’s offensive line is

 

[Clonamery]

It still wouldn’t be as ******ed as the Patriots' offensive line.

Grammar Police fixed it for you.