The Official Rounds 2&3 2013 NFL Draft Thread

[condon84]

You have no point. You were talking out your rear end as you typically do when you don't like a Belichick pick (which is also very often).

Unlike YOU, I acknowledge what the numbers are and what conference they came from. I wasn't the one making asinine claims about the guy. That was you. Do everyone a favor and admit you were wrong and be done with it.

I think the point sailed right over your head. I explained in clear english why I think his stats in Conference USA IMO doesn't stand out.

It's pointless discussing the draft with you. It seems like it's your personal crusade to debunk every criticism that comes the Pats way in regards to their picks, objectivity be damned.

You seem like a smart guy, but when it comes to discussing the Pats, you

 

[Ivan]

Re: next pick to save the draft?

I'm fine with this draft, I like the LB, WR, and CB and I will h judgement on the safety for the time being. There are plenty of players who get drafted every year who i know nothing about that end up being really good pro's. i am certain there are many who are screaming like hell but i really don't care about their b.tching.

 

[Ivan]

Well that is the point.....ALL analysts said Harmon was a good pick....but WAY TOO EARLY....He was projected to go late 4th to 5th. BB I guess either wants to mind bleep everyone....or had wrong information that both guys from Rutgers were going to get snatched up early....especially the safety....he wasn't going anywhere near the 3rd round. So that is the point as you state it.....Pick is ok....just don't waste the VALUE here...We could have used the 3rd to get the BEST player of need on the board at that time...and still come back in the 4th and picked up the Rutgers secondary

At what point are you guys going to realize that the Patriots draft board does not look like Mel Kiper's, or Scott Wright's, or Walter football etc....etc...., and i am glad it doesn't. They have been the most successful team in football for over a decade and their drafting has everything to do with it. looking at the continuous scroll that gave the number of drafted players and drafted pro bowlers on it the Patriots were at the top of the list, and only a few teams were in the same ballpark. They addressed their needs and got good players and it really doesn't matter who Mel kiper had above them. If any of the so called draft experts in this forum ran this team it would be a perennial gutter dweller and they would make the jets look like the model franchise.

 

[Ivan]

Well that is the point.....ALL analysts said Harmon was a good pick....but WAY TOO EARLY....

And these are the same "analysts" who claimed Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Mark Sanchez, and JaMarcus Russell were franchise QB's? And Mike Williams and David Terrell were going to be all pro WR's.....


These guys miss as much as they hit and the idea that they are the final say on whether or not a team took the right players is total crap. I know you guys want the pretty names but that's not the way it is ever going to go.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, Belichick goes out of his way to prove the analysts wrong. Last year Tavon Wilson, this year Harmon

At what point are you guys going to realize that the Patriots draft board does not look like Mel Kiper's, or Scott Wright's, or Walter football etc....etc...., and i am glad it doesn't. They have been the most successful team in football for over a decade and their drafting has everything to do with it. looking at the continuous scroll that gave the number of drafted players and drafted pro bowlers on it the Patriots were at the top of the list, and only a few teams were in the same ballpark. They addressed their needs and got good players and it really doesn't matter who Mel kiper had above them. If any of the so called draft experts in this forum ran this team it would be a perennial gutter dweller and they would make the jets look like the model franchise.

 

[Kontradiction]

That's not Freeman's opinion. It's what he's "hearing repeatedly from some team personnel men," including one GM. Unless you want to argue that Freeman is making that up, in which case we'd have to argue about something completely different.

Belichick would also seem to disagree that this draft is deep at positions of need, considering he passed on all of those players available for a guy that is probably the #5 safety on the roster right now.

The Patriots went:

1. Coverage/Athletic LB
2. WR
3. CB
4. S

Please tell me how those all weren't positions of need. And your last sentence makes the selection of Harmon sound even worse.

No, I'm not Kontra. There's a clear difference between a clear beef such as Deus Irae and a chicken little such as Brady2Moss. Deus goes to great lengths to discuss why he holds the position that he does. That's a fine quality and opens discussion. My surprise is year in year out people are ready to commit seppuku before a player has even seen a snap in the NFL. I'm happy to question picks (and so should everyone else) but there's also an underlying theory that if you don't see value or like something enough to buy it you don't.

That's fine then. My apologies for misinterpreting your position.

And the fact you counter me supporting my opinion with just your opinion and not much else in a condescending tone is even more telling.

I don't have a condescending tone. I'm telling it like it is. I've spent literally two months in this forum and in the draft forum detailing exactly why this draft is so deep for the Pats. If you'd like, I could start copying and pasting my posts on the matter.

Now, back to brass tacks. You stated that this was a bad draft, speaking of the Pats as well as in general. I want you to now back up that position. You've yet to do so thus far and your initial post towards me looks like the beginning of an ad hominem personal attack, telling me that you're either not able to defend your initial position, or that you know it's weak.

Seriously, the positons the Pats had need for were:

• WR - other than Tavon Austin, there wasn't a huge difference between the number of guys that were available including Dobson. You can argue that someone else might have been slightly better, but not a whole heck of a lot.

• 
  
  I like the Dobson pick, but there were plenty of quality prospects available at that position, and there are still more left. Patton would be a fit, Swope would be a fit as well.
  
  

  [*]D-line - Most of the best DEs were taken before the Pats drafted. By the time the Pats actually draft, even most of the second tier guys were off the board. A few more options at DT.

  
  1. Before the draft, you stated that DE was your top need and then made sporadic cases how the Pats could and should draft one. Now that they haven't, you're excusing it using flawed logic.
  
  2. The beautiful thing entering yesterday is that, if the Pats had wanted a DE, they could have traded up. Carradine was still available. Hunt was available after we drafted Hopkins. Okafor, who was a very good pass rusher in college is still available.
  
  

  [*]A coverage LB - You seem pretty clear that there was no one available and the Pats should have waited until the 4th to get one.

  
  I've detailed in the draft forum how there are a few coverage LB's that would have been available in the 6th or 7th.
  
  

  [*]CB - A run pretty early. Not a heck of a lot left and the Pats need depth over a starter.

  
  I wasn't a fan of taking a CB that early, but I like Ryan. I can see why they took him. He's a big, physical CB that specializes in re-routing his receiver in press man. He has to be careful with just HOW physical he is at the pro level, but I'd still take him if anything than just for Talib insurance.
  
  

  [*]Safety - that position was picked pretty clean by the time the Pats drafted. Could have drafted better though.

Agreed here. The Pats should have just ignored safety after Swearinger was picked and made peace with the fact that it would be a need next season as well.

Yes, the draft was deep at WR, but you aren't upset with the Dobson pick. And as I pointed out, there were no real standouts in the group beyond Austin. It was deep at d-lineman, but not by the time the Pats drafted.

Where is the deep part of the draft where the Pats whiffed?

A few areas. They could have easily traded up into the early second to take a more polished pass rusher instead of an inconsistent one in Collins. They could have also swapped out Collins for Swearinger. Harmon for Bailey (who would have fit like a glove here, IMO) or Harmon for Okafor/Williams with a selection of Patton in the 4th. These are all examples of moves they could have made.

 

[BKBroiler]

Exactly what I'm saying- because the "pick" and the "player" are NOT the same thing. The "player" could have been taken with a later "pick" (or possibly obtained without using a "pick" at all.) So regardless of how he performs, the value of the "pick" was wasted.

As it happens, I'm rooting for him also. I'm rooting for ALL these guys, because I love this team and want them to be great.

That does not mean, however, that taking the player at that draft position was the right thing to do. I would think people could see the difference in this. It's not a gem or a nancy negative thing, it's just acknowledging the value in a draft pick. The player CURRENTLY does not have the same value the pick did. Nothing wrong with that...

The basis of your entire argument is so ridiculous. If you applied it to Tom Brady, then you are basically saying that he was also a bad pick in 2000 because there was a good chance he might've went undrafted if the Patriots didn't grab him in the 6th round. So according to your argument, the Patriots basically wasted a pick even though the player may be the best QB of all time.


Do you have some feed into every team's war room? Are you able to read every coach or GMs mind about what they are going to do next? Obviously the answer is no. That means you have literally zero information about what would've happened next if the Patriots didn't take him and what a player's value is. For all we know, the Packers may have wanted him at 91, but traded back when he was gone. Maybe some other team directly behind the Pats also really liked him. The key point here is that no poster on this site knows more than 1% of what is really going on (that includes you, me, and everyone else). So that "value" you have assigned to players is completely meaningless and arbitrary (and it also seems to be based on opinions of "draft experts" who also only have 1% of the information).

How about instead of assigning this arbitrary value, go watch a clip or two of this kid on youtube or read one of the interviews with him. You may be surprised at Harmon's fluidity, ability to hit, smarts, or character. I know I was.

 

[DaBruinz]

I meant when they traded back that they would draft depth filler. It was a revelation to most since they were acting like BB had bent over the vikings and was getting 4 times the talent. Dobson is the only guy that moved the needle for me. I clearly said I liked him.

Sorry I don't give a rats ass about wasting 3rd round picks on guys that can immediately contribute on special teams before they exit the league due to lack of skill.

It wasn't a revelation to most. However, BB DID get pretty damn good value considering all the other trades that took place that were supposedly under-value based on an antiquated chart that hasn't been updated because of the changes in the CBA..

You not giving a "rats ass" about 3rd round picks who can immediately contribute on special teams is part of the problem. You lack the ability to comprehend that not everyone can be a 1st round pick and that the Patriots do a good job of finding players who can make the team better, not just talent that is in it for themselves.

 

[Deus Irae]

Did I miss that Jarvis Jones fell to the 2nd round? OH WAIT. No. He didn't. He went at 17th of the first round. And he is a boom or bust pick. You'd know that if you watched the Georgia/Alabama game where Jones was a non-issue for most of the game.

Markus Wheaton and Aaron Dobson were rated equally. Acting like the Pats got fleeced or somehow had to settle for a lesser WR is laughable on your part.

OH. BTW. The Steelers missed the play-offs last year. The Pats went to the AFCCG. Just thought you needed reminding of that.

This idea that the Steelers are putting on a clinic while the Pats are showing how not to draft is outright laughable. You can't even start to judge the draft until the players have actually PLAYED. I know that is a concept foreign to you. But, then, you seem to insist on needing to be correct all the time, which is why you put up your ridiculous disclaimer.

Absolutely nothing you posted here has anything to do with my post other than your opinion insertion about the two teams drafting. Congratulations. You wrote a book that's completely off topic.

 

[DaBruinz]

Well that's their job to try and figure it out. Were they really expecting Duron Harmond to be gone later? I can understand that argument but i'm not sure i buy it. I'd rather they had taken one of the WRs available or stayed put and taken a Elam if they felt they needed a safety,sure enough the Ravens snag him up right after us. And where does Tavon fit in here? I'm ready to wait and see but that pick is kind of weird.

No. Their job is to figure out who will best help the team both in the short term and the long term. That's what you and so many others fail to understand.

The pick of Harmon is "wierd" if you ignore the warts on this team. Harmon, by all accounts, is a leader and is good on special teams. He also seems to be the type of hybrid safety that Belichick has been trying to put into the secondary. One who can cover but also play the run. More of a Left Side safety/Right Side safety than SS/FS.

The Pats had some issues on kick returns last year. They also haven't brought back Tracy White, a guy who was one of their best special teamers. Ebner could become a casualty of numbers or he could become another one of the Special Teams only guys that Belichick likes to have, in the mold of a Larry Izzo or Tracy White. You know, the kind of guy who ONLY sees the field with the regular defense if everything has gone to hell in a handbasket. Harmon could also mean that Cole is gone since the Pats also added Logan Ryan.

It could also mean that Steven Gregory is gone as a June 1st cut. I felt that he did ok for a guy in his 1st year in the system, but BB might think otherwise.

I'll easily admit that I did a "Duron who?" when his name was announced. But I'll also admit that I didn't do nearly as much research on the draft as others have done. It's an interesting pick and we'll have to see how it pans out.

 

[Ivan]

Yes, Belichick goes out of his way to prove the analysts wrong. Last year Tavon Wilson, this year Harmon

I don't think he cares one way or the other what the analysts think, in fact I don't think he bothers to even look at them, I think his scouting department does the evaluations and he takes them and puts the board together and follows it. Like other teams their boards end up ranking players very different than the draft magazines and sites, who actually have most of their work done long before the teams do. The patriots also follow players from high school right up until the draft, whereas the sites are more focused on the previous year, so while a guy like Tavon Wilson may not be in the crosshairs of a draft site the Patriots have been following his career for some time and see it very differently than the sites do, and while he was switching positions and costing himself draft position the Patriots were following it and impressed with both his willingness to sacrifice for his college team and his ability to make the switch.. Whether they are right or not will be seen the next couple of years but he certainly didn't disgrace himself in his rookie season, and he probably ranks in the top half for 2nd round rookies from last year's draft in terms of playing time and production.

 

[DaBruinz]

Arrington?

I don't think using 3rd rounders with the players still on the board for guys to challenge Ebner and Cole is sound strategy. One of them should have been another WR given who they would be challenging. Or Jessie Williams ..... Or Barrett jones .......

It's ok to question DB, love needn't be blind

I think it is too early in the draft to be filling the bottom of your roster. They have 3 7th rounders for that

There is no blind love here. That is the problem with people like yourself. You automatically jump to that conclusion whenever someone tries to talk sense into you all.

As for Jesse Williams or Barrett Jones, if they weren't rated higher than Harmon by the Pats, why take them? You, like so many others, seem to think that all these amateur draft sites are some gospel when it comes to grading picks. They aren't. Neither are the BLESTO or NATIONAL scouting agencies. Or do we need to go into the countless failures that there have been over the years. Guys like Ryan Leaf, Chad Jackson, Tim Couch, Kijana Carter, etc... You know, guys that were so highly touted and so highly ranked. How'd that work out for them?

 

[DaBruinz]

This has nothing to do with what I posted, all you did was write some simple strawman nonsense. The fact that you somehow read my post and thought that it had to do with how the Pats rate players is weird and confusing. Maybe you should stop being so defensive and start trying to read and understand what I actually wrote. Saying "it's about value" when that's what I've written ad nauseum is irrelevant to my point.

And you are 100 % wrong about your first point. Trading back frequently absolutely is their philosophy in that they believe other teams normally place too much value on the first round which tends to lead to a lot of trading back.

Sorry, but you clearly are the one who needs to read and understand what is written. You didn't write anything about value in the post I replied to, so claiming that you wrote "ad nauseum" about it is a blatant lie on your part.

Secondly, since you clearly have no clue what the Patriots draft philosophy really is (hint: it's not about trading back frequently) there is no point in discussing the matter with you. Your opinion is flawed and erroneous and isn't supported by facts.

If you don't want to bother to understand my point about trading back, not caring where other teams would take players and then taking a player that would likely fall really far then don't bother responding, another post reciting the pats accomplishments isn't instructive.

Nothing is instructive to a person like yourself who believes he's got the Patriots figured out when he is actually pretty clueless on the situation. The fact that you don't even understand their basic draft philosophy or how they go about setting up their draft board is proof of that.

So, one more time, the original question wasn't "zomg how can the Patriots survive doing this?!?!" it was, if you trade your first for a 2nd a 3rd and a 4th, how can you then not care where players are likely to be selected? Why would you trade your 1st for a 3rd and then treat the 3rd as if it's a 6th? or did BB think Harmon would be snagged up quickly thereafter? I'm just looking for someone to reconcile this thought process.

Again, the Patriots use their own grading system and their own scouts. They don't rely on the National Bureaus the way other teams do. The trading back is about value to their team, not value to other teams or where other teams have someone valued. If/when you understand that, then maybe you'll start to understand their drafting strategy.

 

[TyronePoole]

Sorry, but you clearly are the one who needs to read and understand what is written. You didn't write anything about value in the post I replied to, so claiming that you wrote "ad nauseum" about it is a blatant lie on your part.

Secondly, since you clearly have no clue what the Patriots draft philosophy really is (hint: it's not about trading back frequently) there is no point in discussing the matter with you. Your opinion is flawed and erroneous and isn't supported by facts.





Nothing is instructive to a person like yourself who believes he's got the Patriots figured out when he is actually pretty clueless on the situation. The fact that you don't even understand their basic draft philosophy or how they go about setting up their draft board is proof of that.



Again, the Patriots use their own grading system and their own scouts. They don't rely on the National Bureaus the way other teams do. The trading back is about value to their team, not value to other teams or where other teams have someone valued. If/when you understand that, then maybe you'll start to understand their drafting strategy.

my post has nothing to do with how the Pats grade prospects

Basic logic: if you draft a guy in the 3rd that you could have gotten in the 6th that is bad value regardless of how you grade him. Trading back and not incorporating this makes zero sense. I'm sorry you still are having such a hard time with this.

lol @ you

 

[DaBruinz]

I think the point sailed right over your head. I explained in clear english why I think his stats in Conference USA IMO doesn't stand out.

It's pointless discussing the draft with you. It seems like it's your personal crusade to debunk every criticism that comes the Pats way in regards to their picks, objectivity be damned.

You seem like a smart guy, but when it comes to discussing the Pats, you

No. Your "point" didn't sail anywhere. It sank to the bottom of the ocean. It has so many flaws it's ridiculous.

The problem with people like you is that you insist on criticizing every move in every draft. You place ridiculous value on amateur websites that rank players and you can't be bothered to actually do any research for yourself. You think that the conference someone plays in some how directly affects how they'll do in the NFL. Tell me something. What conference is Stephen F. Austin in? Yet, I saw at least two guys who had stellar careers on the podium yesterday announcing players. We could go on and on about the guys who have come from SEC schools with big names and have failed (Chad Jackson, Charlie Ward).

If you want to have criticism, go ahead. But don't make baseless statements like you did. That was the problem. Then, when confronted, you did everything in your power to avoid answering the question. You acted like because you said it, it was fact and no one should question you on it. If you didn't want your opinion questioned, maybe you shouldn't have posted it to begin with. Oh, since you missed it, I wasn't the only one who took issue with your statements.

 

[DaBruinz]

Absolutely nothing you posted here has anything to do with my post other than your opinion insertion about the two teams drafting. Congratulations. You wrote a book that's completely off topic.

Only you would make that claim. I debunk your entire statement, focusing only on what you said, and I'm off topic?

 

[DaBruinz]

my post has nothing to do with how the Pats grade prospects

Basic logic: if you draft a guy in the 3rd that you could have gotten in the 6th that is bad value regardless of how you grade him. Trading back and not incorporating this makes zero sense. I'm sorry you still are having such a hard time with this.

lol @ you

That's just it. That's why you continue to be in the dark. How the Pats grade a player has everything to do with it.

And, unless you can see the future, you are absolutely clueless as to whether or not Harmon would have been there.

When someone comes to you with an offer of a 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 7th for your 1st, you look to see whether or not there are guys on your board that fit in there. Clearly, the Pats felt that there were players they could pick at the time based on THEIR board.

The problem is that I understand the situation much more clearly than you do. That is your issue, not mine. Just as it is your denial and not mine that keeps you from understanding that how they value players is key to understanding what they do in the draft.

 

[Brady2Moss]

You think that the conference someone plays in some how directly affects how they'll do in the NFL.

Well thank you for really outing yourself as a moron. Most good players come from good football programs that play good competition. That is why the SEC had 12 players drafted in the 1st round this year.

Sure sometimes kids slip through the cracks and get recruited to lower tier schools, but they have to DOMINATE at those places to make it in the NFL. They are the exception not the rule.

Thank you for reminding me why you are just a blatant homer that will spin everything and anything to defend BB.

 

[TyronePoole]

That's just it. That's why you continue to be in the dark. How the Pats grade a player has everything to do with it.

And, unless you can see the future, you are absolutely clueless as to whether or not Harmon would have been there.

When someone comes to you with an offer of a 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 7th for your 1st, you look to see whether or not there are guys on your board that fit in there. Clearly, the Pats felt that there were players they could pick at the time based on THEIR board.

The problem is that I understand the situation much more clearly than you do. That is your issue, not mine. Just as it is your denial and not mine that keeps you from understanding that how they value players is key to understanding what they do in the draft.

I'm gonna try to walk you through this one more time and then I'm gonna stop because I can't waste all this time with you like i have with Kontra and lolDeus int he past....

If you are trading for picks in a draft you are de facto making a commentary on the other players (teams) behavior in a game (the draft) system. If you make no assessment on where players are likely to go independent of what your grade is then you are sacrificing VALUE.

example:

I have a 3rd and a 5th/6th round pick. I have a 3rd grade on a player I know is likely to be under the radar of everyone and a 4th round grade on a guy I know is likely to go at the end of the 3rd to the middle of the 4th. What gives your team more VALUE? taking your 3rd round pick that was likely to fall and missing on the 3rd/4th round guy that might have been a slight reach and then getting a 5th/6th that's left at 5th/6th value or taking the 3rd/4th round guy with the 3rd pick and then taking the guy you have a 3rd round pick grade on with the 5th/6th pick?

You are probably going to say something like "But the Pats don't try to guess where other player will be taken" but we know this is false, we've seen them trade back a few spots to get their guy (Mayo) or up a few spots (Gronk) because they made an assessment of what other teams were likely to do.

It's pretty obvious that not assessing what consensus draft grades are and where picks are likely to fall can leave a ton of VALUE on the table regardless of what your own grades are. This is simple common sense that is exacerbated by the fact that the Pats (whether you want to admit it or not) trade back with frequency.

Obviously Belichick is not going to come out and say "yeah I think the rest of the league overrates the first round and will give up too much value" but there is a lot of analytical literature (not in Patriot Reign hurr durr) about it and similar to how he tends to be the most aggressive 4th down coach in the league, he also follows this analytical trend also. So it simply doesn't make sense to not asses where Harmon would get picked if you are trading back for value since the opportunity cost is not insignificant.

 

[IllegalContact]

But you don't talk sense .... The only thing you speak is jack@ss know it all.....you act as if you know something while the noise says otherwise

There is no blind love here. That is the problem with people like yourself. You automatically jump to that conclusion whenever someone tries to talk sense into you all.

As for Jesse Williams or Barrett Jones, if they weren't rated higher than Harmon by the Pats, why take them? You, like so many others, seem to think that all these amateur draft sites are some gospel when it comes to grading picks. They aren't. Neither are the BLESTO or NATIONAL scouting agencies. Or do we need to go into the countless failures that there have been over the years. Guys like Ryan Leaf, Chad Jackson, Tim Couch, Kijana Carter, etc... You know, guys that were so highly touted and so highly ranked. How'd that work out for them?