The OFFICIAL Patriots vs. Browns Post Game Thread

[Nunchucks]

And a rookie needs coaching.....it wa obvious

And rookies make mistakes. Parcells used to say that a team would lose a game for every rookie it starts.

 

[IllegalContact]

And rookies make mistakes. Parcells used to say that a team would lose a game for every rookie it starts.

If it was what the scheme actually called for. Maybe it wasn't even his job. There was enough of that on other plays that had nothing to do with Collins ..... Whatev.... I just have never seen the value that Patricia brings

 

[Nunchucks]

If it was what the scheme actually called for. Maybe it wasn't even his job. There was enough of that on other plays that had nothing to do with Collins ..... Whatev.... I just have never seen the value that Patricia brings

Obviously, the head coach disagrees with you. Anyhow, rookies make mistakes and the Patriots have a lot of rookies playing important roles on both offense and defense, that is one heck of a coaching job at all levels.

 

[Brady6]

Don't focus on me picking Dobson i literally just picked a name out of a hat. Focus on the argument.

Your argument is that the players such as the rookies are at fault for the team scoring 10 points in the first half of games combined since the bye week. My response to that they’ve all missed at least 1 1/2 games in that of time and overall none of the 3 have played more than 30% of the team’s offensive snaps in the games since the bye week.

Boyce - 30.00%
Dobson - 30.00%
Thompkins -24.33%

I think that your argument is flawed; it implies that receivers are never going to drop passes, quarterbacks are never going to be off target and running backs are never going to fumble. Any coach or coordinator should be preparing and game planning with the expectation of adversity and mistakes so those things occurring is not a valid reason for us to have such consistent week after week struggles, if it was the same player causing the same problem week after week then yes I could pass the blame to them and not Josh but we have not even put the same personnel out there since the bye week so you want me to believe that different players make the same mistakes as each other at the same time and in the same situations as each other, that’s a pretty bold expectation.

2012 drops - 38
Welker: 10
Hernandez: 9
Lloyd: 6
Gronkowski: 6
Ridley: 2
Fells: 2
Branch: 1
Edelman: 1
Vereen: 1

2013 drops - 34
Thompkins: 7
Dobson: 7
Edelman: 6
Vereen: 5
Amendola: 3
Bolden: 3
Boyce: 1
Gronkowski: 1
Hooman: 1

The receivers are younger and less experienced obviously so I know from watching that they’ve caused some of the problems but they’re not dropping passes at this ridiculous clip that justifies the offense being so poor in the first half of football games.

I am not trying to make excuses for the guy if IMO he wasn't performing and picking the right plays/schemes i'd be all over him. Every player has regressed in the time he has been here? Brady under Mcdaniels had one of the greatest season of any QB ever... was that mcdaniels? or was that Brady? i mean you can't have it both ways.

I am not taking anything away from Josh, the 2007 season was special and he did a terrific job, as I pointed out in an earlier post the offense started out at a ridiculous level and as the season went it came back to earth. Early in 2007 teams were not expecting such a wide open offense from us it was not the norm in the prior years of the Brady era so it had a bit of a deception factor. Josh’s best work was done in 2008 in my opinion, coaching Cassel and the offense through the loss of Brady was remarkable. Josh has done some things very well in his first go around but if you think that he has not changed since that time I think you’d be overly hopeful, it is highly likely that his time away was detrimental to him as a coach, his confidence was probably deeply impacted and he likely developed some poor habits, that apparent to me not to you however.

I think you'll find why your opinion is being bashed so much (whether you care or not) is because you may make a good point in player X or Play call why not being correct under daniels. but then you casually ignore all of the counter points and the success's people have had under Mcdaniels.

It just seems to me that you obviously don't like him and are putting faults of others on Josh.

I don’t dislike Josh as I have said numerous times, I do not know Josh McDaniels and I do not dislike people I have never interacted with. What I say about Josh is strictly based on the performance of the offense and if the offense is struggling or not doing things well then yes that fault will first be directed at the offensive coordinator primarily, I acknowledge that others are factors in these failures but they all fall under the umbrella of McDaniels it lands on him.

I think you want to believe I dislike Josh and have this personal vendetta against him because then you can chalk my assessment of him up to me trying to beat down some to serve my own agenda, I am telling you that is not the case, I would prefer not to find fault in what Josh is doing and have no desire to see us have to find a new OC or anything along those lines but objectively looking at the offense and the way the trend is going since his arrival in 2012 I have concerns that originated in week 2 of 2012 vs. the Cardinals and have grown and been reinforced ever since.

Also how can you possibly say any of the current players under McDaniels have regressed? they are all rookies. or if they are vets e.g edelman and Vereen... they have actually improved. The only vet on offense having a worse year is Ridley... because of fumbles.

Look at the performances of the offensive players, I see regression if you don’t then that’s fine we disagree but in my opinion players are not developing like they should be on the offense. Look at the defensive players like Jones, McCourty, Talib, Ninkovich, Dennard, Gregory and Spikes over the past few seasons they’ve improved in their time here with Patricia, they’ve grown as players, do you see that on the offensive side of the ball under McDaniels rein?

If you mention brady's numbers being down. is that Mcdaniels fault? or is it more likely the effect of throwing to a bunch of Rookies? I can't believe i am still having this argument.

People disagree but I certainly think McDaniels has a large influence in the personnel decision making, Lloyd, Amendola, Fells and Salas were all players came in on his recommendation from his experience with them in Denver or St. Louis. 3 of the 4 players are gone and the other player Amendola is not playing at the level of the player he was brought in to replace. Belichick and Kraft were also responsible for these decisions but I do not believe they would have transpired if Josh was not here and if you do I think that you’re really reaching on that belief, if these players were not signed and others were the likelihood is that we would not have to rely so heavily on rookies, etc.

I am not having an argument with you I am having a discussion, I am not the least bit angered with you. I read what you write and try and see your perspective and if I am able to I do and if I am not then I let you know the reason why as thoroughly and politely as possible. If you’re still having an argument it is something you’ve constructed in your own mind.

 

[Nunchucks]

Just ignore the fact that running the wrong route can cause a sack or an incompletion that is not a drop.

Then the Patriots are on their 3rd RT for the year and are starting TEs that were not even on the roster during TC.

This team is being held together by duct tape for gods sake.

 

[Brady6]

Brady6, I hope you realise you have a running conversation with roughly 5 or so of the best posters on Patsfans, all of whom are telling you the same thing yet strangely, you're responding in defiance to each with the same (as far as I am concerned) poorly considered cause and effect "rationale".

Surely there is a point where you have to contemplate that you may need to reconsider your position? Whilst we're at it, let's throw out there that the Patriots haven't won a Super Bowl since Josh Miller was the punter. That fits X effecting Y to cause Z doesn't it?

I have a ton of respect and appreciation for the posters you’ve mentioned, I am a huge fan of Manx, Jsull, Zeus and you, I very much enjoy reading the things you all post and have a great appreciation for the things you offer up. I am having a discussion nothing more than that with you guys, I see things one way which I am trying to convey to you and I am also inviting you to explain why you feel the other way. I am not suggesting I am right and you all are wrong I am only offering up my reasoning for why I feel the way I feel and letting you guys conclude what that means to you. Please do not insinuate that because I do not just say yes I agree 100% that I do not see value in your posts, that is not the case if I didn’t like and respect you guys I would place you on ignore and go discuss things with others. If you or someone else make a snide remark I throw something snide back sometimes but it is not meant to be harmful it’s all in good spirit.

 

[Brady6]

Just ignore the fact that running the wrong route can cause a sack or an incompletion that is not a drop.

Then the Patriots are on their 3rd RT for the year and are starting TEs that were not even on the roster during TC.

This team is being held together by duct tape for gods sake.

I am not disputing that and overall that makes the team very impressive but outside of the right tackle the other parts of the offense have intact the injuries have been far more devastating on the defensive side of the ball. Gronkowski and Vereen were all healthy and playing for these games in the second half that we’re discussing the struggles in the first half of.

 

[Sciz]

The blown call that nobody is talking about (or at least that I haven't seen):
On the 40 yard TD where Talib was penalized, Gordon pulled Talib to the ground by his face mask. Yes, Talib had the first penalty (hands to the face), but then Gordon had either a hands to the face or face mask penalty, and then Talib pulled Gordon down, which should have been called holding. Should have been offsetting penalties. Nope, the Browns got a TD.

 

[captain stone]

I get on Josh as much as anyone here, but you can't fault him for Sunday.

I've been harping on starting fast by passing and spreading it out early, which is what we did Sunday. Guys were open and Brady just missed them. Brady was off on a lot of throws. A lot of his passes were short or behind.

Can't blame McD for that.

There were at least 3 inexcusable drops in the 1st quarter: one each from Boyce, Vereen & Edelman.

 

[Ring 6]

There were at least 3 inexcusable drops in the 1st quarter: one each from Boyce, Vereen & Edelman.

5 of Bradys first 14 pass attempts were dropped.
Thats the difference between 10/14 and moving the all and 5/14 and stuck in the mud.

 

[jsull87]

Your argument is that the players such as the rookies are at fault for the team scoring 10 points in the first half of games combined since the bye week. My response to that they’ve all missed at least 1 1/2 games in that of time and overall none of the 3 have played more than 30% of the team’s offensive snaps in the games since the bye week.

Boyce - 30.00%
Dobson - 30.00%
Thompkins -24.33%

I think that your argument is flawed; it implies that receivers are never going to drop passes, quarterbacks are never going to be off target and running backs are never going to fumble. Any coach or coordinator should be preparing and game planning with the expectation of adversity and mistakes so those things occurring is not a valid reason for us to have such consistent week after week struggles, if it was the same player causing the same problem week after week then yes I could pass the blame to them and not Josh but we have not even put the same personnel out there since the bye week so you want me to believe that different players make the same mistakes as each other at the same time and in the same situations as each other, that’s a pretty bold expectation.

2012 drops - 38
Welker: 10
Hernandez: 9
Lloyd: 6
Gronkowski: 6
Ridley: 2
Fells: 2
Branch: 1
Edelman: 1
Vereen: 1

2013 drops - 34
Thompkins: 7
Dobson: 7
Edelman: 6
Vereen: 5
Amendola: 3
Bolden: 3
Boyce: 1
Gronkowski: 1
Hooman: 1

The receivers are younger and less experienced obviously so I know from watching that they’ve caused some of the problems but they’re not dropping passes at this ridiculous clip that justifies the offense being so poor in the first half of football games.



I am not taking anything away from Josh, the 2007 season was special and he did a terrific job, as I pointed out in an earlier post the offense started out at a ridiculous level and as the season went it came back to earth. Early in 2007 teams were not expecting such a wide open offense from us it was not the norm in the prior years of the Brady era so it had a bit of a deception factor. Josh’s best work was done in 2008 in my opinion, coaching Cassel and the offense through the loss of Brady was remarkable. Josh has done some things very well in his first go around but if you think that he has not changed since that time I think you’d be overly hopeful, it is highly likely that his time away was detrimental to him as a coach, his confidence was probably deeply impacted and he likely developed some poor habits, that apparent to me not to you however.



I don’t dislike Josh as I have said numerous times, I do not know Josh McDaniels and I do not dislike people I have never interacted with. What I say about Josh is strictly based on the performance of the offense and if the offense is struggling or not doing things well then yes that fault will first be directed at the offensive coordinator primarily, I acknowledge that others are factors in these failures but they all fall under the umbrella of McDaniels it lands on him.

I think you want to believe I dislike Josh and have this personal vendetta against him because then you can chalk my assessment of him up to me trying to beat down some to serve my own agenda, I am telling you that is not the case, I would prefer not to find fault in what Josh is doing and have no desire to see us have to find a new OC or anything along those lines but objectively looking at the offense and the way the trend is going since his arrival in 2012 I have concerns that originated in week 2 of 2012 vs. the Cardinals and have grown and been reinforced ever since.



Look at the performances of the offensive players, I see regression if you don’t then that’s fine we disagree but in my opinion players are not developing like they should be on the offense. Look at the defensive players like Jones, McCourty, Talib, Ninkovich, Dennard, Gregory and Spikes over the past few seasons they’ve improved in their time here with Patricia, they’ve grown as players, do you see that on the offensive side of the ball under McDaniels rein?



People disagree but I certainly think McDaniels has a large influence in the personnel decision making, Lloyd, Amendola, Fells and Salas were all players came in on his recommendation from his experience with them in Denver or St. Louis. 3 of the 4 players are gone and the other player Amendola is not playing at the level of the player he was brought in to replace. Belichick and Kraft were also responsible for these decisions but I do not believe they would have transpired if Josh was not here and if you do I think that you’re really reaching on that belief, if these players were not signed and others were the likelihood is that we would not have to rely so heavily on rookies, etc.

I am not having an argument with you I am having a discussion, I am not the least bit angered with you. I read what you write and try and see your perspective and if I am able to I do and if I am not then I let you know the reason why as thoroughly and politely as possible. If you’re still having an argument it is something you’ve constructed in your own mind.

Firstly i understand we are discusing not arguing so don't take any of this the wrong way.

That was a long reply so i will try address each point in turn:

My argument isn't that it's the rookies fault. My argument is that it isn't all mcdaniels fault. There is a difference. I believe the early offensive strugles can be attributed to many things not just one (i.e mcdaniels) and i guess that is where you are getting some push back from posters. As you pointed out we haven't had the same recievers in back to back games since thanks giving. That sounds exactly like the type of thing that would effect offensive cohesion for example.

IMO the 1st half struggles are a combination of recievers, OL play, QB play, Fumbles early, INT's early and even josh e.t.c but not just one man in JMcD.

Re Mcdaniels acknowledging that others are at play but ultimately it all falls on Mcdaniels "its on him". That is where we disagree. If our game plan sucks, we are running 50% against the Jets and Steelers e.t.c then yes it's on McDaniels. But the realist is as OC his job is to "create" "scheme" e.t.c these are at the Macro level. Yes if he spots somehting he can tell someone somehting specific but the reality is he can't micromanage the situation. He will put together a plan each week then delegate the responsability of the indervidual techniques to the possition coaches. IMO it's not "all on Josh".

Can you please list me players in this team that have seen Regression under Mcdaniels? All i can see is Vereen and Edelman thrive under him. Same with Gronk. Are you really blaming josh for someone like Ridley's fumbles or Amendola/Gronk's injuries? because they have effected the performance more than play calling.

If you are attributing this poor season brady is having to Josh then IMo you are not taking in to account OL play on Brady's ability to get the ball out (on pace for most sacks in a season), Rookie Wr's, Hernandez gone, Gronk Gone, Ridley having rough year, Amendola injured... e.t.c

On this point i think you are just being too narrow minded in your critiscm of Josh and are not taking account all of the factors here. E.g do i think Mcdaniels is responsible for Vereen's emergence? nope. I think vereen was an exceptional pass catching RB and was always going to be used this way and it is up to vereen to make the plays... Do i attribute the long bomb to vereen down the sideline isolated on the LB to Mcdaniels? absolutley that was a great play call.

The crux of the issue is i just think you are attributing many bad and exestential things out of Mcdaniels control to Josh. IMO that would be an ok opinion except you are not consistand as all of the good things that could be contributed to Josh in the same way you are attributing to others.

 

[Brady6]

My argument isn't that it's the rookies fault. My argument is that it isn't all mcdaniels fault. There is a difference. I believe the early offensive strugles can be attributed to many things not just one (i.e mcdaniels) and i guess that is where you are getting some push back from posters. As you pointed out we haven't had the same recievers in back to back games since thanks giving. That sounds exactly like the type of thing that would effect offensive cohesion for example.

I understand what you’re saying agree that it is not Josh McDaniels fault. I keep going to different things that I see wrong with the offense in order to figure out what exactly we hold McDaniels accountable for. I feel like everything I suggest posters disagree and pass that blame on to another coach or player on the team. I mean if McDaniels is not responsible for anything that has gone wrong what is his purpose and why are we paying him over a million dollars a year?

Can you please list me players in this team that have seen Regression under Mcdaniels? All i can see is Vereen and Edelman thrive under him. Same with Gronk. Are you really blaming josh for someone like Ridley's fumbles or Amendola/Gronk's injuries? because they have effected the performance more than play calling.

I don’t think Vereen and Edelman playing well is anything other than them being given an opportunity that Welker and Woodhead stood in the way of in prior seasons; they both have shown the ability in prior seasons to do what they’re doing now. I will give McDaniels recognition for seeing something in Edelman that O’Brien was not seeing in 2010 or 2011.

Gronkowski has not thrived more with McDaniels and it has nothing to do with injuries he averaged 82.9 YPG in 2011 and that dropped 71.8 YPG in 2012.

Brady is not playing at the same level in Josh offense; he had a 111.0 QB rating in 2010 and a 105.6 QB rating in 2011, last season that dropped to 98.7. Completion percentage was drop last season to 63% after season of 65.9% and 65.6% in the 2 prior years.
Ridley has regressed over 2012.
Solder and Wendell both have regressed over 2012.
Mankins and Connolly are shadows of their former selves granted I attribute that to health and age.
I mean not to bring up a sore thumb but Hernandez regressed significantly in 2012 over his 2011 season, maybe he was too busy smoking dust and blasting homies and that’s why but I think he was what he was every year personally and nobody picked up on it.

These players obviously could be causation vs. correlation falsely but just the same there is a decline. The concern I have though is the lack of development – Solder, Ridley, Bolden, Hoomanawanui and Mallett are all younger 2nd or 3rd year players and in the preseason and regular season I did not see any significant growth out of the players. In my opinion not improving 1 to 2 or 2 to 3 is regressing, Ridley should have been a priority of Josh and the offensive coaches this was a guy who had a top 3 rushing season in the last 20 years of this franchise last season and they should have used that as a launching pad to the elites.

As far as Amendola goes I think what you see is the player that Amendola is, his per game averages this season are almost identical to his career per game averages. His signing was a poor decision in my opinion, if we signed him at 50% of the cost I would say it was a great move but Amendola is not worth $5.7 million a year.

If you are attributing this poor season brady is having to Josh then IMo you are not taking in to account OL play on Brady's ability to get the ball out (on pace for most sacks in a season), Rookie Wr's, Hernandez gone, Gronk Gone, Ridley having rough year, Amendola injured... e.t.c

Brady played 2010 with 2 rookie tight ends, Wes Welker coming off major reconstructed knee surgery and Deion Branch as #1 receiver brought back in season from Seattle at 32 years old. Brady won the MVP and had one of his best season in his career.

 

[SVN]

:ugh:....................