The OFFICIAL Patriots vs. Browns Post Game Thread

[DaBruinz]

The offensive coordinator typically has a number of assistant coaches working under him, usually coaches primarily responsible for the various offensive positions. If something is not going properly on offense it falls under McDaniels chain of command.

Yes I meant in the first half of games in terms of 10 points.

And Josh reports to Dante who reports to Bill. Still doesn't change the fact that the Position Coaches are the ones responsible for techniques. Something I said earlier and you ignored. Just like you ignored being schooled on your whole "It's Josh McDaniels fault" spiel.

 

[IllegalContact]

That falls on the players as much as the coach. Whomever was wearing the green dot is supposed to spot that and make the call to ensure it gets covered based on what is called in.

Unless the guy with the green dot is not sufficiently coached......thy were not prepared to identify, and that falls on the coach

 

[BelizePats]

To Brady6, how is Josh involved in Brady overthrowing his receivers during the first Pats drive? How is Josh responsible for the O line missing its blocks in the first half?

I hear you on your frustration with this offense but it can't be dumped on McDaniels. Brady was dreadful for most of the first 3 quarters of yesterdays game. His O line also killed drives. Not McDaniels. This is poor execution not poor coaching. You think our head coach would just sit back and let that slide if its a clear as you think it is? Not a chance in hell!!

 

[Brady6]

What expectations? Anyone who expected him to step in and do what Welker did immediately was fooling themselves. Fan EXPECTATIONS, particularly those of ignorant fans who clearly have never played the game, have never been coached in any game, or ever been a coach for a game really don't know what the expectations should be. Furthermore, the season isn't over yet.

I played football throughout my youth, teens and 3 years in the Air Force. I am not ignorant I am very dedicated to the NFL and the Patriots in particular and invest countless hours studying and educating myself on the game.

As far as me not knowing what the expectations are unless I am coaching the game, well I guess I can say the same thing to you and then say how do you know that he is meeting expectations any more than I know that he isn’t? You don’t so we are both just offering up our beliefs, what makes you think yours is so much wiser than mine I am not sure but I could just as easily sit here and call what you’re saying ignorant and belittle it but I don’t because I am capable of human interaction without over personalizing and dramatizing the situation.

I understand the season is not over but he has failed to live up to expectations to this point and time. Neither of us have a crystal ball so obviously we are talking about things “as of today”.

That is the problem. Your expectations are out of whack with reality. In fact, you aren't in touch with reality because I posted the stats of 3 of the players you mentioned and only one of them had ANY comparison because they played the same position. Something you have refused to acknowledge.

You pulling numbers out of your rear end when the season isn't even over shows how pathetic your argument is. Your comparing a FULL season of Welker to a season of Amendola that isn't finished. And you want us to not question your thinking?

Oh, and lets forget about the fact that Welker had Gronkowski AND Hernandez opening things up for him. Something that Amendola only had half of that for, what, 5 games?

The stats I gave you were not Welker’s full season they were his stats at the conclusion of week 14 last season, I also said that I understood Amendola missed time with injuries, so you know in Welker’s first 9 games (same # of games as Amendola) he had 66 receptions for 810 receiving yards which is 25 more receptions and 362 more receiving yards than Amendola has today.

I am not pulling stats out of my ass either; I am pulling them off ESPN.com - Wes Welker Game By Game Stats and Performance - Denver Broncos - ESPN

In the first 13 games of last season Hernandez and Gronkowski played week 1 and part of the first quarter of week 2 before Hernandez suffered an ankle injury after that any time spent together on the field was with one of them at well below 100% so the suggestion that they were opening things up is completely invalid. Furthermore Welker’s best games last year were all games that either Gronkowski or Hernandez missed.

For you to "feud with me", you'd actually have to be capable of having a cogent argument. You haven't. Not on any level. You cherry pick information and try to get others to believe what you want and you fail miserably.

If you actually believe that you responding with not one tangible piece of evidence to discredit my post and only providing untrue reasoning for why (example – I did not provide you with the full season for Welker last year) that is the case is you providing and ‘cogent argument” you are beyond my attempting to get through to. I don’t care what others believe, I post in here to talk things out and learn and hear from people who offer justifications for their beliefs, unfortunately I often times run into posters like you who just want to shoot down what I say while taking no time to explain themselves or their opinion but rather rely on belittlement as the only method of justification. I honestly am so beyond that stuff at this point and have no interest in it at all.

For the record I was actually attempting to be nice to you and “not feud” but you’re so freaking raring to go all the time you just want to argue so whatever – have a good night I am not going to waste any more time tonight on this discussion you’re not reasonable and you just want to be right and me to be wrong you have no interest and looking at things and trying to have a mutually benefical discussion. Take care and good night!!

 

[Brady6]

And Josh reports to Dante who reports to Bill. Still doesn't change the fact that the Position Coaches are the ones responsible for techniques. Something I said earlier and you ignored. Just like you ignored being schooled on your whole "It's Josh McDaniels fault" spiel.

That’s not true however, Dante is the assistant head coach he reports to Bill independently, Bill covers the entire game plan with Dante in order to prepare him to step in should something occur to Bill during the week leading up to the game or in the game. McDaniels, Patricia and O'Brien report directly to Bill as well but not to Dante and the individual positional coaches report to their respective coordinator.

 

[Brady6]

To Brady6, how is Josh involved in Brady overthrowing his receivers during the first Pats drive? How is Josh responsible for the O line missing its blocks in the first half?

I hear you on your frustration with this offense but it can't be dumped on McDaniels. Brady was dreadful for most of the first 3 quarters of yesterdays game. His O line also killed drives. Not McDaniels. This is poor execution not poor coaching. You think our head coach would just sit back and let that slide if its a clear as you think it is? Not a chance in hell!!

Why is it you blame Josh but not the possition coach? if the WR's aren't running their routes isn't it the WR coach's job to teach said WR these routes each week not Josh? Isn't it Josh's job to coordinate the offense and come up with a game plan ans scheme?

If brady throws a quick out to Amendola and the ball bounces... is that Josh's fault? If Ridley Fumbles is that Josh's fault? does he now need to micromanage the RB's as well? What about if Mulligan misses a block? Is the Josh's fault and now he needs to take mulligan aside and teach him how to block?

Thats the reason for possition coaches, to McDaniels doesn't have to micromanage. Mcdaniels says "this is the play we want it run this way" it is then up to the possition coaches to teach the technique to run that play effectivley. Not Mcdaniels.


IMO you seem to be giving every player and position coach a pass but heaping blame directly on McDaniels. Personally i think that shows a lack of understanding about how the delegation process works on any team's coaching staff.

I am looking at the entire game each week; we have had some games this season where the offense had the predictability of a pee wee warner team. I am not just keying on yesterday and I understand Brady was not at his best in the first half of the game.

I am not going to lobby to cut every player and fire every coach, especially when you consider that this has never been an issue in Brady’s career unless paired with Josh, I look at the historical data and think to myself 13 years Brady suddenly just can’t get out of his own way in the first half of game?

Overall it is not just McDaniels it is the players and the positional coaches as well but it starts at the top and trickles down.

My issue with McDaniels is much more than this season it is about the trends that I see around him, when I look at the years Bill O’Brien was the OC he took a team that was in flux on offense and along with Belichick he rebuilt it, Tom Brady and the offense improved year over year in all 3 of O’Brien’s seasons as the OC. If you look the seasons that McDaniels has been involved in the team declines as the season progressed and Josh’s tenure with the team lengthened, this was the case here at a lesser degree the first time around and then it became even more apparent in Denver and St. Louis. Josh lost 20 of his last 26 in Denver as the head coach and when he was the OC in St Louis they lost their last 7 games of the season, were shut out (held to 0 points) 2 times during that time and averaged 11.2 PPG in the second half of the season, then he came here last season we declined as the season went, Brady had a QB rating under 100.0 and a completion percentage under 65% for the first time since 2009 and we ended the season losing to Baltimore and scoring just 13 points.

Now maybe Josh is a victim of circumstances but the outcome still is what it is no matter the circumstances and he is the common denominator in all of these situations nobody else just Josh.

 

[Brady6]

By this logic. Mcdaniels falls under BB's chain of command. BB is directly responsible for Dobson dropping that long ball for not going out the week before and teaching him to keep his eyes on the ball. BB falls under Kraft's chain of command. Kraft should therefore get down there and teach Ridley to hold it high and tight.



As i said before if it were up to BB, Mcdaniels, Patricia and Krafte e.t.c to micro manage this stuff then the organisation would just not work.

The fact you're talking about a player who hasn't even been targeted in 3 games and missed the last 2 1/2 with injury really illustrates how far out of whack you've gone to attempt to make excuses for McDaniels.

The fact is outside of Edelman and Vereen who both given more opportunity which could justify improved performance every player on the offense regressed in the time Josh has been here, I don't blame the positional coaches and Belichick because one the coaches were the same one we had in 2011 when young players like Gronkowski, Hernandez, Solder and others were developed and improving as the weeks and season progressed.

Do you think I want McDaniels to fail or do poorly? I don't I want this team to win a Super Bowl so I want everyone to do their best and make that happen, I don't post in here 20+ times a day to support a team that I want the players and coaches of to fail.

All I can tell you is I have concerns about Josh not because I want to but because if I take a line graph and trend out players and the overall offense as time goes by most lines head down.

 

[manxman2601]

The fact you're talking about a player who hasn't even been targeted in 3 games and missed the last 2 1/2 with injury really illustrates how far out of whack you've gone to attempt to make excuses for McDaniels.

The fact is outside of Edelman and Vereen who both given more opportunity which could justify improved performance every player on the offense regressed in the time Josh has been here, I don't blame the positional coaches and Belichick because one the coaches were the same one we had in 2011 when young players like Gronkowski, Hernandez, Solder and others were developed and improving as the weeks and season progressed.

Do you think I want McDaniels to fail or do poorly? I don't I want this team to win a Super Bowl so I want everyone to do their best and make that happen, I don't post in here 20+ times a day to support a team that I want the players and coaches of to fail.

All I can tell you is I have concerns about Josh not because I want to but because if I take a line graph and trend out players and the overall offense as time goes by most lines head down.

I have a feeling Ausbacker might be raising some causality issues with you when they wake up down under (and don't get him started on cricket ssshhh).

 

[jsull87]

The fact you're talking about a player who hasn't even been targeted in 3 games and missed the last 2 1/2 with injury really illustrates how far out of whack you've gone to attempt to make excuses for McDaniels.

The fact is outside of Edelman and Vereen who both given more opportunity which could justify improved performance every player on the offense regressed in the time Josh has been here, I don't blame the positional coaches and Belichick because one the coaches were the same one we had in 2011 when young players like Gronkowski, Hernandez, Solder and others were developed and improving as the weeks and season progressed.

Do you think I want McDaniels to fail or do poorly? I don't I want this team to win a Super Bowl so I want everyone to do their best and make that happen, I don't post in here 20+ times a day to support a team that I want the players and coaches of to fail.

All I can tell you is I have concerns about Josh not because I want to but because if I take a line graph and trend out players and the overall offense as time goes by most lines head down.

Don't focus on me picking Dobson i literally just picked a name out of a hat. Focus on the argument.

I am not trying to make excuses for the guy if IMO he wasn't performing and picking the right plays/schemes i'd be all over him. Every player has regressed in the time he has been here? Brady under Mcdaniels had one of the greatest season of any QB ever... was that mcdaniels? or was that Brady? i mean you can't have it both ways.

I think you'll find why your opinion is being bashed so much (whether you care or not) is because you may make a good point in player X or Play call why not being correct under daniels. but then you casually ignore all of the counter points and the success's people have had under Mcdaniels.

It just seems to me that you obviously don't like him and are putting faults of others on Josh.

Also how can you possibly say any of the current players under McDaniels have regressed? they are all rookies. or if they are vets e.g edelman and Vereen... they have actually improved. The only vet on offense having a worse year is Ridley... because of fumbles.

If you mention brady's numbers being down. is that Mcdaniels fault? or is it more likely the effect of throwing to a bunch of Rookies? I can't believe i am still having this argument.

 

[jsull87]

I have a feeling Ausbacker might be raising some causality issues with you when they wake up down under (and don't get him started on cricket ssshhh).

Did someone mention cricket? hahaha

 

[ausbacker]

Brady6, I hope you realise you have a running conversation with roughly 5 or so of the best posters on Patsfans, all of whom are telling you the same thing yet strangely, you're responding in defiance to each with the same (as far as I am concerned) poorly considered cause and effect "rationale".

Surely there is a point where you have to contemplate that you may need to reconsider your position? Whilst we're at it, let's throw out there that the Patriots haven't won a Super Bowl since Josh Miller was the punter. That fits X effecting Y to cause Z doesn't it?

 

[manxman2601]

Did someone mention cricket? hahaha

Not cool. Not cool at all.

 

[SVN]

What about cricket ?

 

[manxman2601]

What about cricket ?

Completely fortuitously and no doubt off the back of some serious cheating, the Aussies are currently destroying the English.

 

[SVN]

Completely fortuitously and no doubt off the back of some serious cheating, the Aussies are currently destroying the English.

Destroying yes. Not sure about cheating. The 'poms' cant handle the pace of M Johnson.
Ok , back to football .

 

[ausbacker]

Completely fortuitously and no doubt off the back of some serious cheating, the Aussies are currently destroying the English.

I wouldn't worry about the South African national cricket team playing Australia at the moment manx.

 

[manxman2601]

I wouldn't worry about the South African national cricket team playing Australia at the moment manx.

This is both surprisingly accurate and wrong at the same time but needs a little explaining.

1. Are you under the impression I'm South African?

2. Unfortunately, for the time being, I'm half Manx and half <cough> English <cough>.

3. But this is why I was intrigued by you connecting me to South Africa. I have a fairly rare surname but that name is shared with an 'end' at one of the South African test venues. Which makes you connecting me to S Africa a strange coincidence.

Still, no more cricket talk (please).

 

[ausbacker]

This is both surprisingly accurate and wrong at the same time but needs a little explaining.

1. Are you under the impression I'm South African?

2. Unfortunately, for the time being, I'm half Manx and half <cough> English <cough>.

3. But this is why I was intrigued by you connecting me to South Africa. I have a fairly rare surname but that name is shared with an 'end' at one of the South African test venues. Which makes you connecting me to S Africa a strange coincidence.

Still, no more cricket talk (please).

I love taking every opportunity to get stuck into Kevin Pietersen manx. It goes no deeper than that.

 

[condon84]

I get on Josh as much as anyone here, but you can't fault him for Sunday.

I've been harping on starting fast by passing and spreading it out early, which is what we did Sunday. Guys were open and Brady just missed them. Brady was off on a lot of throws. A lot of his passes were short or behind.

Can't blame McD for that.

 

[IllegalContact]

That was Collins responsibility, he is a rookie.

And a rookie needs coaching.....it wa obvious