The Official Julian Edelman Bandwagon

[Deus Irae]

You've seen a lot of side-by-sides of Edelman and Slater blocking, have you?

In any case, it's clearly not ALL about blocking. That wouldn't make much sense now, would it?

I've watched them play. I'm not sure why you think I'd need to see them side by side. Well, I am sure, and it's because you know you have no argument, so you're tossing out a really stupid baseline as a way of avoiding the part of the discussion that kills your claim.

As for it not being "ALL" about blocking... If that's the case, then Welker needs to be there. His receiving is light years ahead of Edelman, and it's not all about blocking.

 

[Huckleberry1]

You don't even know what my argument is. Why are you even talking about Welker's contract? That has nothing to do with Edelman's production. Go spew your agenda somewhere relevant.

The "SPEW" and the "AGENDA" are frrom those of you who start thread after thread touting edelman and knocking Welker. I have never started a single thread on the issue and didn't even chime in when people started talking conspiracy theories about the start of this season. However when people start talking pure bullsh.t and make fantastical claims that can't be supported in anyway then i'll be sure to chime in and support a player who has far outplayed the expectations in NE. despite the many idiotic claims of hisw detractors he has played like a HOF player here and deserves to be treated as such.

You guys want me to stop defending him then stop making thread after thread day after day about it and I guarantee you I won 't be chiming in about the issue. However if you insist on taking dump after dump on him then expect some of us to take issue with it. Julian Edelman is an average player at best, Wes Welker has been one of the best players in the NFL for years, there is no comparison, let alone a claim that Edelman is actually better.

 

[JJDChE]

The "SPEW" and the "AGENDA" are frrom those of you who start thread after thread touting edelman and knocking Welker. I have never started a single thread on the issue and didn't even chime in when people started talking conspiracy theories about the start of this season. However when people start talking pure bullsh.t and make fantastical claims that can't be supported in anyway then i'll be sure to chime in and support a player who has far outplayed the expectations in NE. despite the many idiotic claims of hisw detractors he has played like a HOF player here and deserves to be treated as such.

You guys want me to stop defending him then stop making thread after thread day after day about it and I guarantee you I won 't be chiming in about the issue. However if you insist on taking dump after dump on him then expect some of us to take issue with it. Julian Edelman is an average player at best, Wes Welker has been one of the best players in the NFL for years, there is no comparison, let alone a claim that Edelman is actually better.

OK, now go read the thread.

 

[JJDChE]

I've watched them play. I'm not sure why you think I'd need to see them side by side. Well, I am sure, and it's because you know you have no argument, so you're tossing out a really stupid baseline as a way of avoiding the part of the discussion that kills your claim.

As for it not being "ALL" about blocking... If that's the case, then Welker needs to be there. His receiving is light years ahead of Edelman, and it's not all about blocking.

Yeah, I've watched them play too. Even so, it's not clear to me who the better blocker is.

It's a pointless tangent in any case. How does that change what Edelman has been the last two years? We know he hasn't been put out there as a receiving option. He has almost never been targeted when he's been out there. I haven't seen how many targets he actually saw in '10/'11, but it can't be many. He's probably seen nearly as many targets in the last two weeks as he had in the last two years.

 

[Huckleberry1]

:nooo:


Strike one.

Seriously dude, you said Edelman won the job and that you weren't sure Welker is better, which is like saying your aren't sure Brady is better than Ryan Mallett?

Had you simply said that people should give Edelman a chance without suggesting he's actually better than Welker you would have been fine, trying to make such a ridiculous claim was your problem, not mine.

How the hell can anyone claim that Julian Edelman is better than Wes Welker?

 

[zeroakuma]

He's a better QB ....LOL

 

[BradyManny]

It's like using a screwdriver to put in a thumbtack. Wrong tool for the job.

Did you even read my post?

The entire point of posting those metrics was that they take into account the very things you were asking for. If Edelman was in purely to block, it will not register in these statistics - these metrics are purely for when he was used as a wide receiver, and do take into account game-situation.

As for Edelman's blocking prowess, that's a separate issue. I'm talking about him purely as a receiver. I wouldn't exactly say he's a noted blocker by any stretch of the imagination, though, if that is what you are insinuating.

Either way, at this point it seems your argument is shifting considerably, simply for the sake of disagreeing with those of us that are suggesting we temper expectations with Edelman.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yeah, I've watched them play too. Even so, it's not clear to me who the better blocker is.

It's a pointless tangent in any case.

Then why did you make run blocking an argument?

How does that change what Edelman has been the last two years? We know he hasn't been put out there as a receiving option. He has almost never been targeted when he's been out there. I haven't seen how many targets he actually saw in '10/'11, but it can't be many. He's probably seen nearly as many targets in the last two weeks as he had in the last two years.

See, this is just nonsense. He's been out on the field as a WR. He's been a receiving option. He's been low on the progression list, but that's not the same thing.

It's really lousy arguments like this that make your positions so weak.

Furthermore, if he hasn't been good enough to get beyond the position you claim he's been in, it's more than fair to question how he went from not even being considered capable enough to be targeted to becoming the WR2. And a simple review of his playing history shows us that there's nothing out there that serves as significant evidence of this happening.

 

[JJDChE]

Did you even read my post?

The entire point of posting those metrics was that they take into account the very things you were asking for. If Edelman was in purely to block, it will not register in these statistics - these metrics are purely for when he was used as a wide receiver, and do take into account game-situation.

As for Edelman's blocking prowess, that's a separate issue. I'm talking about him purely as a receiver. I wouldn't exactly say he's a noted blocker by any stretch of the imagination, though, if that is what you are insinuating.

Either way, at this point it seems your argument is shifting considerably, simply for the sake of disagreeing with those of us that are suggesting we temper expectations with Edelman.

My argument hasn't changed. All I'm arguing is that Edelman deserves his shot.

My distaste for judging him on his extremely sparse use the last two years is another issue. Doing a statistical analysis on a guy who gets a few snaps a game is a waste of time.

 

[Kontradiction]

You're moving the goalposts all over the place on this one...

It's not useful. Garbage.

BradyManny posted the stats. They are most conclusively not garbage.

They haven't been putting Edelman on the field to catch passes the last two years. He's been a situational offensive player.

That should tell you all you need to know about Edelman as a WR. That's why so many of us are scratching out heads now as to why he is taking snaps away from Welker, particularly early on.

I think we can all agree that he was never a top 2 or 3 option on any given play, so it's not surprising at all that he hasn't been productive.

Last year, Deion Branch wasn't a top two or three option on any given play. The progression went like this: Welker, Gronk, Hernandez. However, Branch still enjoyed a better season that Edelman ever has (or probably ever will) due to the fact that he took advantage of what he was given. Edelman never has.

The last two games he's been on the field more as an option.

He started the last game. That's not being on the field as an "option".

His production hasn't been great, but it's been better than zero and this is his first time playing in that outside receiver role.

Nobody is saying that his production is zero. We're saying that it isn't enough and that he simply isn't the most viable option there. The data has been presented time and time again to prove that.

He needs a chance to get comfortable.

If he hasn't had a chance to get comfortable in this offense since 2009, then something is wrong.

That wasn't my contention.

Sure it was...

His pro career has also been a direct extension of his college career. Edelman is a converted QB. He is also on a team with a lot of pass catching talent, as opposed to the Miami team that Welker was playing on which pretty much blew. You can't compare the two based on the point in their career.

Translation: You can't compare the two because it's not fair. Wes didn't have as many pass catching options around him in Miami as Julian does now so that's why Julian hasn't put up the numbers or production per snap that Wes has to date.

My contention was he is always going to be farther down in the progressions when Gronk, AH, Wes and Lloyd are on the field with him. That limits his legitimate looks even if he's on the field for a lot of snaps. I.e. he hasn't really had 'legit shots' until this year.

I just showed you that Branch was in the same position last year and contributed still. Again, Edelman gets more open looks because of playing with these other guys. If he was truly open, Brady would target him more often.

The old 'open receiver' line isn't true anymore.

Sure it is. You just don't want to be because it's yet another fact that causes your argument to implode on itself.

Brady forces it in to Welker and Gronk far too often.

Not true. All of the other pass catching options besides those two get plenty of open looks. Hernandez got a bunch as did Branch. Even the RB's got in on the fun. And Welker and Gronk also get plenty of targets because they're open most of the time, even through double coverage. Brady usually tends to force it into them against better defenses which all quarterbacks tend to do when the competition gets stiffer. Montana did it, Young did it, Marino did it, and Manning did/does it.

AGAIN (Seriously, dude, pay attention), no one is saying he's a 1-for-1 replacement for Wes.

Plenty of people have and still do say that, including you in the line below...

That doesn't mean he won't be our slot receiver next year.

Both are free agents at the end of the season.

No, you're not. You're working with two games.

Edelman has been around since 2009. When we look at his body of work and compare and contrast him to other receivers either currently or formerly on the roster, we look at his entire body of work, the last two games included. Further, the data has been posted, and it's of the ENTIRE body of work.

If you think he's been on the field as a legit passing option prior to two weeks ago (and 2009), then you're lying to yourself.

Nobody is saying that he's been on the field full time. That's why we study his production in the instances that he HAS been on the field. In this instance, I wish he was a more productive WR. But he simply isn't.

This isn't about infallibility. I don't mind him trying Edelman out early in the season to see what he has in real time, even at the expense of Welker's snaps.

And, apprently, even at the expense of a loss since that was one of several reasons for the offense's funk early on.

Nor do I have a problem with replacing Wes with Edelman if it comes to that. Edelman probably won't live up to Wes's production, but he doesn't have to. That's for AHern to live up to.

Aye. So we're going to let the best slot receiver in the NFL walk for a low production replacement and a talented tight end with a history of injury issues. How much more attention do you think that oft-injured talented TE will get without Welker there to demand the amount of attention that he demands?

 

[Ring 6]

You've seen a lot of side-by-sides of Edelman and Slater blocking, have you?

In any case, it's clearly not ALL about blocking. That wouldn't make much sense now, would it?

Considering there may be all of 6 plays to see of Slater blocking from the WR position, I doubt anyone has analyzed.
Evenif Slater were a better blocker, that isn't really relevant to the point, becuase we could put Connolly out there if all that mattered were who is the best blocker.
Edelman being the best blocker among the REAL WRs would be the point, if in fact there is one. Including Slater just adds a cloud to the point unnecessarily.

 

[JJDChE]

Then why did you make run blocking an argument?

I was referring to blocking in general. either run blocking or downfield.

See, this is just nonsense. He's been out on the field as a WR. He's been a receiving option. He's been low on the progression list, but that's not the same thing.

It's really lousy arguments like this that make your positions so weak.

Semnatics. Do you really think Edelman was a top option in the passing game in '10/'11? He's a receiving option in a technical sense, but he's extremely discounted.

Furthermore, if he hasn't been good enough to get beyond the position you claim he's been in, it's more than fair to question how he went from not even being considered capable enough to be targeted to becoming the WR2. And a simple review of his playing history shows us that there's nothing out there that serves as significant evidence of this happening.

He was god enough to get to that position as of two weeks ago. Let's see if he deserves to be there. Two games isn't enough for me to judge. He hasn't been bad thus far. He's still the 3rd option on most plays, so I'm not expecting him to get 8 catches a game. Hopefully he can get 3-5 and make something good happen with one of them. He might not, I have no idea. For all I know Branch could eat all of his snaps this week. He hasn't done anything compelling, I'll agree with that. But what do you expect of your 4th/5th receiving option?

If he caught 45 balls and took 2-3 to the house with his good open field running that would be a successful showing for him, IMO.

 

[crawhammer]

I'm not 100% sure Wes is better.

You're an idiot.

Welker is the best slot WR in the entire NFL.
Edelman is a backend of the WR depth chart receiver at best.

Seriously, only a total boob isn't sure if Welker is the better WR.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

You're an idiot.

Welker is the best slot WR in the entire NFL.
Edelman is a backend of the WR depth chart receiver at best.

Seriously, only a total boob isn't sure if Welker is the better WR.

As you may have noticed here Rook, being an idiot does not stop us from posting.

 

[JJDChE]

You're an idiot.

Welker is the best slot WR in the entire NFL.
Edelman is a backend of the WR depth chart receiver at best.

Seriously, only a total boob isn't sure if Welker is the better WR.

Welker is the best slot receiver in the NFL. Edelman is a developing player, you can't say what he is based on what he's been. Welker is better right now, I'm just going to wait to see what Edelman does before I make my final assessment and claim that Welker is unequivocally better. Clearly the likely outcome is that Edelman doesn't live up to Welker. That goes without saying.

 

[Danger Zone]

Reserved for fans post here who have no idea who Wes Welker was when he arrived here even six years after the fact.

Ahh.. did you have to lie and utterly exaggerate a point to get a zinger in?

I know who Welker is. My post was asking for his 1st and 2nd year stats while he was in Miami.

And I'm sorry, I will continue to look for the You Are a Moron button when I see someone posting the following.

Welker shot himself in the foot by putting the Patriots over himself, he should have taken them to arbitration for abusing the franchise tag, had it removed because they never bargained in good faith, and signed elsewhere for the 50-60 million he deserved. It's a shame the Patriots scumbagged him the way they did, they disgraced themselves.

I swear, you, Ivan and others aren't even Patriot fans. Patriot fans dont hate on their team as much as you guys do.

You guys are not Belichick.

You don't have an inside scoop into the Patriot office.

You can't read minds.

You think you know better, but you don't.

How about you sit back, shut up and enjoy the success we are having for a change.

 

[Deus Irae]

Ahh.. did you have to lie and utterly exaggerate a point to get a zinger in?

I know who Welker is. My post was asking for his 1st and 2nd year stats while he was in Miami.

And I'm sorry, I will continue to look for the You Are a Moron button when I see someone posting the following.



I swear, you, Ivan and others aren't even Patriot fans. Patriot fans dont hate on their team as much as you guys do.

You guys are not Belichick.

You don't have an inside scoop into the Patriot office.

You can't read minds.

You think you know better, but you don't.

How about you sit back, shut up and enjoy the success we are having for a change.

Ivan and Mo are two of the biggest homers on this board.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Ivan and Mo are two of the biggest homers on this board.

Thank you for spelling homers correctly

 

[Sciz]

He's a better QB ....LOL

Welker is the better kicker, though!

 

[RIpats88]

welker is definitely better than Edelman as a receiver....although, Edelman has hauled in 6 receptions on 8 targets....he hasnt exactly been horrible when targeted...