The Media still HATES us even though we suck. Want Belichick gone bad.

[203Pat]

I am not doing that. I am using that he was a fourth QB in 2000 to show how Brady might not have been given a shot in today's NFL where pocket passers are no longer valued by most teams.

With his physical skillset would he still be a late round pick coming out? Yes, probably but Brady was a "mobile quarterback" he just wasn't a scrambling quarterback. You're talking about a guy like Drew Bledsoe, who in all likelihood couldn't succeed in today's NFL. Brady moved better inside the pocket than any QB in history. He had eyes in the back of his head and would have been the greatest to ever do it if he was drafted in 2000 or 2020.

 

[1960Pats]

You’re off your rocker. Brady literally dominated this generations best as recently as two and a half years ago, and not for the first time. Same game. There just isn’t a Brady in it right now.

Yup, defenses are getting better and QBs aren't. There also seems to be less top flight QBs

 

[Rob0729]

Special teams and kick off returns have changed but overall I don’t know of any super significant rule changes taking place since the Polian Colts. Brady still dominated the league two years ago, thus, elite pocket passers will still dominate the league.

There has been a ton of significant rules changes since 2006. Stop it. Hell, Brady has a rule named after him that has changed how defenders can rush and hit a QB. But there have been several other changes about how a QB can be hit that has changed the game.

And rules changes aren't the only way the league has changed. The biggest reason the league has changed is because of the college game and even lower than that. The players coming out of college now are very different than they were ten years ago especially at the QB position. Colleges are running far different systems now and they are developing different players because of it.

 

[PATS16N0]

Yup, defenses are getting better and QBs aren't. There also seems to be less top flight QBs

The Brady era was probably slightly unique in NFL history. You had two guys competing for GOAT where the loser would be regarded as top 5. Numerous top 10 QBs of all time. Numerous guys scratching the surface of that benchmark. Brady, Manning, playoff Eli, Brees, Rodgers, Ben, Rivers, plus numerous dark horse capable quarterbacks like Flacco.

I definitely think there’s something to the quarterback skill position getting worse.

 

[1960Pats]

Special teams and kick off returns have changed but overall I don’t know of any super significant rule changes taking place since the Polian Colts. Brady still dominated the league two years ago, thus, elite pocket passers will still dominate the league.

That will probably change but it hasn't yet. A running QB may need to learn how to pass but a passing QB doesn't need to learn how to run.

 

[Rob0729]

With his physical skillset would he still be a late round pick coming out? Yes, probably but Brady was a "mobile quarterback" he just wasn't a scrambling quarterback. You're talking about a guy like Drew Bledsoe, who in all likelihood couldn't succeed in today's NFL. Brady moved better inside the pocket than any QB in history. He had eyes in the back of his head and would have been the greatest to ever do it if he was drafted in 2000 or 2020.

Brady was not a mobile QB by today's standards. Hell, Mac Jones is infinitely more mobile than Brady was coming out of college and Mac is not considered remotely mobile by today's NFL standards.

And who cares what Brady was in the NFL? I am talking about whether he would have had an opportunity to show his superior pocket presence.

Brady was considered an out of shape QB with no arm who couldn't keep his starting job. He would probably have faced an uphill battle for any team to even give him a shot in today's NFL.

This is not a knock on Brady. This isn't a statement on his abilities. This isn't saying whether or not Belichick "made" Brady or not. It is based on what the perception of the guy coming out of college. He was drafted 199 for a reason. In today's NFL, I don't think there would be many or any teams that would have given him a shot.

Hell Brock Purdy had a far better Combine than Brady running a 4.84 and was a four year starter at Iowa State (yeah, I know Iowa State ain't Michigan) and he was Mr. Irrelevant.

 

[Rob0729]

Yup, defenses are getting better and QBs aren't. There also seems to be less top flight QBs

The biggest difference is that you can have an average QB like Tua or Purdy or Hurts and have one of the best passing offenses in league if you surround them with elite talent. I mean the Dolphins are on pace to possibly break every passing and scoring record with Tua. In 2013, that couldn't happen to any team that didn't have Brady, Manning, or Brees.

Ten years ago, you needed a top QB to have a top offense. Now you can get by with a Tua, Hurts, Purdy, or Cousins and have a top offense because of the receiving talent around them.

 

[1960Pats]

The Brady era was probably slightly unique in NFL history. You had two guys competing for GOAT where the loser would be regarded as top 5. Numerous top 10 QBs of all time. Numerous guys scratching the surface of that benchmark. Brady, Manning, playoff Eli, Brees, Rodgers, Ben, Rivers, plus numerous dark horse capable quarterbacks like Flacco.

I definitely think there’s something to the quarterback skill position getting worse.

Playoff Eli was the exact opposite of his brother PEDton, who was good during the season but folded like a new tent in the playoffs.
After watching what's going on in Denver maybe it was Brees all along who was responsible for their wins, just like it was for Brady here.
Big Ben was an immovable object by NYFL standards. That poor girl he assaulted had no chance.
For some reason I liked Rivers. It's too bad for him that he played at the same time as Brady.
Rodgers is unlikeable to me because he comes across as a jerk and the media fawns over him.

As mentioned upstream the college game has changed it's approach. I don't follow the game but a friend who does predicted that this would happen years ago after the college coaches started to use running QBs and not passers. They were losing their jobs trying to train QBs for the NYFL. It looks like he was 100% correct.

 

[203Pat]

Brady was not a mobile QB by today's standards. Hell, Mac Jones is infinitely more mobile than Brady was coming out of college and Mac is not considered remotely mobile by today's NFL standards.

And who cares what Brady was in the NFL? I am talking about whether he would have had an opportunity to show his superior pocket presence.

Brady was considered an out of shape QB with no arm who couldn't keep his starting job. He would probably have faced an uphill battle for any team to even give him a shot in today's NFL.

This is not a knock on Brady. This isn't a statement on his abilities. This isn't saying whether or not Belichick "made" Brady or not. It is based on what the perception of the guy coming out of college. He was drafted 199 for a reason. In today's NFL, I don't think there would be many or any teams that would have given him a shot.

Hell Brock Purdy had a far better Combine than Brady running a 4.84 and was a four year starter at Iowa State (yeah, I know Iowa State ain't Michigan) and he was Mr. Irrelevant.

If you want to talk about 40 times Jameis Wilson ran a 5 second 40 and he went first overall. Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garopollo, Sam Darnold, Matt Ryan, Josh Rosen, and Dwayne Haskins all had 40 times in the 5 second range and were drafted relatively highly. If you can move in the pocket it doesn't really matter what your 40 time is. Mahomes had a bad 40 time by today's standards and is one of the best quarterbacks ever at maneuvering in the pocket.

 

[Rob0729]

If you want to talk about 40 times Jameis Wilson ran a 5 second 40 and he went first overall. Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garopollo, Sam Darnold, Matt Ryan, Josh Rosen, and Dwayne Haskins all had 40 times in the 5 second range and were drafted relatively highly. If you can move in the pocket it doesn't really matter what your 40 time is. Mahomes had a bad 40 time by today's standards and is one of the best quarterbacks ever at maneuvering in the pocket.

But Jameis Winston had a big arm, had the reputation of throwing into tight windows, won the Heisman and a National Championship, and was considered a top prospect. I am comparing guys who came into the league drafted around the same point as Brady, not top prospects. Winston is not an apples to apples comparison.

 

[RodThePat]

Brady ran a 5.28 40. Fromm ran a 5.01. Brady had a 24 1/2 inch vertical leap while Fromm's was 30 inches. Fromm is far more athletic than Brady was coming out of college.

And yet no one thought Fromm was draftable due to his athleticism. He was drafted because he won in college and was generally thought of as a tough player who didn't make boneheaded decisions. If he had Brady's arm he'd likely go two rounds higher at the very least.

 

[Rob0729]

And yet no one thought Fromm was draftable due to his athleticism. He was drafted because he won in college and was generally thought of as a tough player who didn't make boneheaded decisions. If he had Brady's arm he'd likely go two rounds higher at the very least.

If Brady had Brady’s arm when he was a draft prospect, he might have gone two or three rounds higher. The knock on Brady coming out of college was that he had below average arm strength. Right or wrong.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

If Brady had Brady’s arm when he was a draft prospect, he might have gone two or three rounds higher. The knock on Brady coming out of college was that he had below average arm strength. Right or wrong.

I remember a radio interview his first year when Bledsoe was still the starter and the Pats made him work on his arm strength, no one today wants to admit it but he had a noodle arm coming out of Michigan, just watch some old you tube games of him at Michigan. He was skinny and didn't zip the ball. But Brady being Brady worked hard on it along with a lot of other things to become the GOAT. The guy is a nut with improving himself.

 

[SVN]

How can you say the game isn’t different? In 2013, all the top QBs were traditional pocket passers. There wasn’t a single duel threat QB like Jackson, Allen, or Mahomes that was considered any good.

In 2013, not a single QB rushed for over 700 yards. Cam Newton was first among QBs with 585. Five QBs in 2022 had over 700 rushing yards.

And you can look at the change of speed on both sides of the ball. Back in 2013, you basically only had the Seahawks and a handful of other defenses using small fast defenders and teams were still going with big mysterious d-lines. And speed on the o-line was also a rarity.

There are far more top talent receivers coming out of college than ever. We are seeing a generation of young athletes deciding to become receivers rather than RBs since the latter position has fallen out of favor. It isn’t unusual for teams to have two WRs who are #1 quality.

Add that FBs have virtually become extinct. Virtually every offense is now running RPOs which were considered too simple for the NFL and more of a college thing just five years ago. Defenses are now almost exclusively playing nickel and dime packages where ten years ago they were more of a third down defense.

The NFL is quite different today than it was ten years ago. The players are getting more athletic and faster. A lot of things that worked ten years ago don’t work today. The league is constantly evolving for better and for worse.

Whatever the changes maybe happening - teams usually suck until they get the QB. Every good team sucked until tey got theirs and still is sucking. Somehow Brady > bb feeds this narrative that other coaches won with poor QBs . Every team needs one and its hard find. SF is the outlier here .
BB has been always ahead of the curve. he sent josh to learn the spread from meyer before 2007. he switch to the 2 TE set when he got gronk and the other guy. Then the three WR package. Then with cam newton it was another offense. he was trying something last yr to simplify the offense and move the SF style.He got rid of the FB just like you point out above. his mistake was to use his defensive coach as the o coordinator and over estimating his 2nd yr QB would understand and try to adapt instead of whining internally and externally to other coaches outside the team. You can bet if brady was here last yr he wouldve adapted and made it work. That is the difference. its not his lack of try. just his choice of personnel and players have backfired and yes its on him

 

[venecol]

Brady ran a 5.28 40. Fromm ran a 5.01. Brady had a 24 1/2 inch vertical leap while Fromm's was 30 inches. Fromm is far more athletic than Brady was coming out of college.

Is your argument that we're time traveling Brady to 2023 as he played in Michigan in 1999? Lol

More realistically, 23 yo Brady in 2023 would've had the modern training and nutrition making him athletically comparable to todays athletes, otherwise he wouldn't have made today's college teams. What made Brady different from other QBs was his intangibles. His drive, his heart, competitiveness, clutchness, the chip on his shoulder. None of that would've changed. Otherwise he wouldn't be Brady.

Honestly, your argument is utter nonsense.

 

[venecol]

Belichick is playing chess while everyone else is playing Fortnite.

 

[RodThePat]

If Brady had Brady’s arm when he was a draft prospect, he might have gone two or three rounds higher. The knock on Brady coming out of college was that he had below average arm strength. Right or wrong.

The biggest knock on Brady was NFL teams not understanding why he was splitting time and being weary that something was wrong with him that they weren't seeing. I recall the Patriots.com guys saying they immediately felt the cognitive dissonance of the "not a strong arm" in Tom's first training camp. Either way, Fromm's arm was perceived as worse and he went a round higher.

 

[catent]

Brady was not a mobile QB by today's standards. Hell, Mac Jones is infinitely more mobile than Brady was coming out of college and Mac is not considered remotely mobile by today's NFL standards.

And who cares what Brady was in the NFL? I am talking about whether he would have had an opportunity to show his superior pocket presence.

Brady was considered an out of shape QB with no arm who couldn't keep his starting job. He would probably have faced an uphill battle for any team to even give him a shot in today's NFL.

This is not a knock on Brady. This isn't a statement on his abilities. This isn't saying whether or not Belichick "made" Brady or not. It is based on what the perception of the guy coming out of college. He was drafted 199 for a reason. In today's NFL, I don't think there would be many or any teams that would have given him a shot.

Hell Brock Purdy had a far better Combine than Brady running a 4.84 and was a four year starter at Iowa State (yeah, I know Iowa State ain't Michigan) and he was Mr. Irrelevant.

I see some of the regular Brady fans are getting their panties in a wad over this post.

The reality is that Brady is far better QB than Mac Jones. Superior poise, pocket presence, arm strength, etc. He's better in every way; it's not even close. Brady is the greatest QB of all-time; Mac Jones is a poor QB.

But it's also true that Brady wasn't the player he became immediately upon entering the NFL, and that seems to be something some Brady fans cannot accept. In fact, claiming Brady was a finished product (or close to a finished product) immediately upon entering the NFL completely undermines the very essence/thesis of Brady: he was an incredibly hard worker, with attention to detail, willing to work on weaknesses, mentally tough, resilient, shockingly consistent in his day-to-day effort, preparation, and focus.

 

[catent]

If Brady had Brady’s arm when he was a draft prospect, he might have gone two or three rounds higher. The knock on Brady coming out of college was that he had below average arm strength. Right or wrong.

Candidly, anyone "disliking" this post is dripping with bias, partiality, favoritism ... whatever you want to call it.

Putting aside what one actually thought of Brady's arm strength coming out of college, it is objectively true that this was the knock on him by NFL evaluators/scouts. Point blank.

And I think it's actually true. He had skinny legs and was thin coming out of Michigan. He didn't "snap"/zip the ball - he pushed it and it floated. He worked on his mechanics and physique and within a period of 1-3 seasons gained noticeable arm strength. Brady's trajectory compared to Jones' is in stark contrast, where Brady took tremendous steps in improving his physical traits and mechanics early in his NFL career, and was able to translate that to games on a consistent basis. Jones doesn't appear to have made much progress physically/mechanically, or at the very least cannot consistently demonstrate it in live games.

Anyone who insists Brady was a finished product when he was drafted is way off base, and again, undermining the essence of what made Brady great.

 

[PATS16N0]

But it's also true that Brady wasn't the player he became immediately upon entering the NFL, and that seems to be something some Brady fans cannot accept. In fact, claiming Brady was a finished product (or close to a finished product) immediately upon entering the NFL completely undermines the very essence/thesis of Brady: he was an incredibly hard worker, with attention to detail, willing to work on weaknesses, mentally tough, resilient, shockingly consistent in his day-to-day effort, preparation, and focus.

Brady won three Superbowls his first four years. Good lord, the revisionist history, on a Patsfans forum of all places, is really ridiculous.