The Front Office killed it this Off-Season

[RobertWeathers]

I am so very very glad that we locked up Gronk and Hernandez as they look like keepers and solid contributors . . . and have both had great first two years, so its not like they will be just a rookie sensation and then taper off the rest of thier stay in NE . . . I think they will very likely continue to contribute at a high level . . .

However, as for the OP points regarding our draft of a TE and impact on the league . . . Indy did run a two TE set with Dallas Clark as the veristale TE, but i do think our TE dou will have more impact on the leaque . . . with the advent of the passing game, its nice to be able to run a two TE set, and still have a passing threat out of a two TE set which will help our run game . . .so we can have a formation that is conducive to a run game but have the talent at TE to still make a very potent passing threat . . . in the recent years past we could not really have a formation that could be a duel threat . . .

Also, we did try this before with a blocking/catching TE and an athlete at other TE back in 02 and 03 when, in the first rounds, we drafted Watson and Graham . . . and too bad they did not pan out like Hernandez and Gronk . . . can you imagine Gronk and Hernandez on teh 02-09 teams , so this is not our first go around with trying to have two great and complimentary TEs on the team . ..

So for me, I am glad that they guys have turned out great, and we got two guy at a reduce rate in the draft, they have turned out beyond what we hoped and are locked into contracts for many years to come . . . its makes for a very bright future . . .

Completely agree that Gronk would have been a major upgrade over Danny Graham in the passing game but for those of us who remember, Graham was an absolute beast in pass and run blocking. I'd be thrilled if he was on this team as the 3rd TE (or 2nd if you count AH as the 2nd TE)

 

[patfanken]

The thing that people forget is that the long term commitment to Gronk and Hernandez means a long term commitment to the offense that they have spawned. So you not only have to sign the players, you have to sign the "support players". That is why BB has been so assiduous in grabbing all those TE's

They are necessary if we want to run that 1 RB 2TE offense as a base. We need to know that in case of injury the offense as a whole doesn't need a radical change. That although there would be a drop in talent, it won't be great enough to cause a complete offensive disruption.

I think Ballard and Fells meet the long term requirements of of ,blocking and receiving skills. Fells is turning out to be a better blocker than I thought, though he hasn't had much of a chance to show off his receiving skills. Ballard I think can be Gronk's match as a blocker and has enough receiving skills to present a legitimate threat at the position (though no one is going to game plan for him)

In 2010 the Pats ran with just 2 TEs. In 2011 it was 3 for the most part. From now on I doubt very much that the Patriots will EVER have fewer than 4 TE's on the roster again. during the Gronk/Hernandez Era. For that matter I doubt they will ever have more than 5 WRs and will try to get by with 4). Its the sign of the times

 

[MUFC7]

I began this thread as a credit for locking up those 2 TE but the more I think about it the more I must say they really had some great moves this off season.

The secondary is still a work in progress. But the FO did all they could to make things better this off season. Ras-IR should be now a starter for this defense, he is nearly a 1st round pick and didn't see much playing time so far. Drafting him was probably a mistake they made last season, not this one.
This year they drafted, Wilson, who showed plenty of potential so far and Dennard who simply slipped through the boards because of his alleged charakter issues. Most draftniks had him with a 1-2 round grade. In FA they got Gregory. It's hard to find good safetys in this league and they decided that Gregory is their man. Bell and Landry played well so far so maybe there was a little mistake but let's give Gregory some more time. That Chung would become such a liability in pass coverage wasn't to be anticipated. He wasn't great at it but what he showed this year is the worst I've seen from him.
The secondary had good games against the Rams and Arizona so let's see if they can improve until the play offs.

At the front 7 we got the jackpot. Remember how many wanted Williams as a dominant DE pass rusher? Well the FO got him in the draft and he is called Chandler Jones. Experts thought he would be a project and not the DROY. Once he gets a bit more credit in the league and the referees start to call the holds against him, the sky is the limit for him. Hightower is a very versatile LB who already improved this defense tremendously. He will turn out to be a great player for the Pats and already made some crucial big plays. They even traded up for both! Pats trading down was the running gag for the Pats draft accross the league. Who's laughing now? Surely not the Jets
Fanene withheld some important health informations. You can't blame the FO for that. Props to Cunningham for stepping up the way he did. He improved tremendously this season.

On Offense we all wanted Waters to return. They offered him a pay rise and he refused because of his familiy. The FO can't for him to play for them and did all they could. Lloyd on 3y 12m$ was a steal. Brady likes him and he made some outstanding catches so far. If he stops to drop those easy ones, he will be even more valuable for this Offense. I would have loved to lock up even Welker but I don't understand him anymore. I always thought his deal would be done and it wouldn't be so hard. He himself said that he made more money he would've believed and that money is not an issue. That both sides would be this far apart is sad but you can understand both parties. They signed many TE because this Offense relies heavily on them. Once Ballard and Shiancoe are fit I think few of those average TE will be released. Alot of WR were signed a none of them seemed to be good enough. I think they were right because none of this WR are making a significant contribution to their team else where.

 

[The Gr8est]

I began this thread as a credit for locking up those 2 TE but the more I think about it the more I must say they really had some great moves this off season.

The secondary is still a work in progress. But the FO did all they could to make things better this off season. Ras-IR should be now a starter for this defense, he is nearly a 1st round pick and didn't see much playing time so far. Drafting him was probably a mistake they made last season, not this one.
This year they drafted, Wilson, who showed plenty of potential so far and Dennard who simply slipped through the boards because of his alleged charakter issues. Most draftniks had him with a 1-2 round grade. In FA they got Gregory. It's hard to find good safetys in this league and they decided that Gregory is their man. Bell and Landry played well so far so maybe there was a little mistake but let's give Gregory some more time. That Chung would become such a liability in pass coverage wasn't to be anticipated. He wasn't great at it but what he showed this year is the worst I've seen from him.
The secondary had good games against the Rams and Arizona so let's see if they can improve until the play offs.

At the front 7 we got the jackpot. Remember how many wanted Williams as a dominant DE pass rusher? Well the FO got him in the draft and he is called Chandler Jones. Experts thought he would be a project and not the DROY. Once he gets a bit more credit in the league and the referees start to call the holds against him, the sky is the limit for him. Hightower is a very versatile LB who already improved this defense tremendously. He will turn out to be a great player for the Pats and already made some crucial big plays. They even traded up for both! Pats trading down was the running gag for the Pats draft accross the league. Who's laughing now? Surely not the Jets
Fanene withheld some important health informations. You can't blame the FO for that. Props to Cunningham for stepping up the way he did. He improved tremendously this season.

On Offense we all wanted Waters to return. They offered him a pay rise and he refused because of his familiy. The FO can't for him to play for them and did all they could. Lloyd on 3y 12m$ was a steal. Brady likes him and he made some outstanding catches so far. If he stops to drop those easy ones, he will be even more valuable for this Offense. I would have loved to lock up even Welker but I don't understand him anymore. I always thought his deal would be done and it wouldn't be so hard. He himself said that he made more money he would've believed and that money is not an issue. That both sides would be this far apart is sad but you can understand both parties. They signed many TE because this Offense relies heavily on them. Once Ballard and Shiancoe are fit I think few of those average TE will be released. Alot of WR were signed a none of them seemed to be good enough. I think they were right because none of this WR are making a significant contribution to their team else where.

They signed with the Rats, which brings their judgment and character into question.

 

[Deus Irae]

Phantom coffee....good stuff.


Yeah I miss that smilie too.

Ian's looking into adding more smilies to the board. In the meantime:



You might want to save it to someplace and post it as a picture every once in a while, for nostalgia's sake. That's what I do.

 

[Finnishfan]

...

3)Finances. One of the first rules of economics is: Demand determines the price....

The balance of SUPPLY and demand determines the price. The more scarce the resource in question, the higher the price would be. That is why unique individualistic artifacts of any kind are always valued high and mass produced artifacts of the same purpose are worth less.

But that just emphasizes your point on the matter. If Gronk would have hit the FA, he propably would have been "a scarce resource" and made a HUGE payday.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Completely agree that Gronk would have been a major upgrade over Danny Graham in the passing game but for those of us who remember, Graham was an absolute beast in pass and run blocking. I'd be thrilled if he was on this team as the 3rd TE (or 2nd if you count AH as the 2nd TE)

Graham was a great blocker but nowhere near the passing threat of either Gronk or Hernandez. He's also not worth 6m per season as a 3rd TE. The Broncos awarded him a 5 year/30m free agent contract. And that's why he's not a Patriot anymore. For the money, I don't miss him.

Pats have enough backup tightends with Fells and Shiancoe. Ballard when healthy next season could be really good for us as a #3 TE. Or we might draft another TE such as a Travis Kelce. Who knows.

 

[mgteich]

OFFENSE A+

I like to look at what the results were, rather than dealing with total number of choices. IMHO, Belichick's approach of bringing in lots and lots of free agents is a good one, even if the fast majority do not amount to anything.

WIDE RECEIVER
We had a great need at WR. Going into the offseason, we had Edelman and Branch. We needed lots of competition, along with with a quality signing.

Belichick franchised Welker and signed Lloyd. He then brought in a half dozen players to compete with Edelman and Branch for the backup positions, including a 7th rounder. Of course, these were less important than for most teams since we rely on tight ends for much of our passing game. Edelman and Salas were the players of choice, apparently with Branch and Gaffney on speed dial. Belichick brought back Branch.

Considering where were at the start of the offseason, the results have been truly incredible. We have Welker, Lloyd, Branch, and Edelman, with Salas on the Practice Squad, along with our half dozen tight ends under contract.

TIGHT ENDS
Not only did Belichick sign 2 of the top tight ends in the nfl, long term. Belichick also addressed the backup and blocking TE spots roles that were unaddressed in 2011. Fells and Houman.. have indeed have indeed had an impact. They have filled backup TE, blocking TE, and fullback duties. And BTW, they have some receptions (a bonus). And just to be sure, we have Shiancoe and Ballard in the wings. This position will be a strength for many years to come.

OFFENSIVE LINE
I don't know what anyone expected with regard to Waters. Waters didn't want to play here. Belichick offered a couple of million. Waters said no.

The key is that Scar new had what he needed even without Waters. Posters may have wanted to cut McDonald, Wendell and/or Thomas. Scar disagreed. Also, Scar apparently is OK with Cannon as a backup OT.

My only nitpick is that I would have liked us to have a veteran backup LT on the 53 man squad. Gallery was an effort.

Very interesting thread. The FO certainly DID crush it with the Gronk and Hernandez signings. The value we will get for those contracts over the next 4 years compared to the impact of those 2 players is outstanding.....especially when you consider what has being paid to other receivers out there.

However since we have little to do the next 2 weeks we might as well pick at the scabs of what in reality has been an outstanding off season.

THE DRAFT -

Jones, Hightower, Wilson, Dennard and Ebner have to be all considered home runs....at this point of their careers if you consider expectations, impact, and snaps. How they all end up is still a question,but at this moment in time those 5 players have been good picks.

Jake Bequette however is another story. Granted like the others, we have no idea how this kid will turn out, but given his impact so far, (or lack thereof) I bet the Draft gurus here could drop some names with perfect 20-20 vision, that could have been found at the end of the 3rd round or the beginning of the 4th that would have proven more impactful in a perfect world

Ebert looked like a decent pick in the 7th, but I guess not. He not only didn't make our PS, but we literally gave up a pick to get another PS player who isn't as fast. So I guess he wasn't that good. BTW- IIRC I don't think he hooked on with another PS. Am I right on that?

FA -

Here we had a lot less success.

1. We'd all like to have a Red Bryant do over, especially given the way the Jonathan Fenene thing turned out. How much better would we be right now if we he had someone capable of pushing the pocket better than what we have now. A healthy Fenene would have been a big plus, let alone Red Bryant and a few less million dollars

2. The Brian Waters fiasco - I don't know how much better the OL might have been with Waters on board and how all the rest of pieces fit, but, but it couldn't have hurt to know earlier how it would end. My guess is the blame is more on Waters than the Pats for his indecision, but in this perfect off season, you'd like to think something could have been done.

3. The long list of FA signees (( think we had the most in the league by far), and the long list of those signees who got cut

4. The number of FA signees who have actually had an impact.

DFells - no
M Hoo hoo - no
VShianco - no
Bobby Carpenter - no
Ballard - no
M Cole - No (but on the rise)
SGregory - Yes (but not in the last 4 games due to injury)
BLloyd - Yes

So we signed 13 FA's this off season IIRC, and right now only 1 and a half have had any impact. That's not exactly stellar......so far. Especially when you consider the season before we signed 2 FA's that turned out to be first team all pros and another who got 10 sacks and a big contract elsewhere.

5. I'm OK we didn't sign Wekler to a long term deal worth in excess of $8MM/yr, though in an ideal world they could have gotten something done in the $6MM/yr area.

So whlie this was a great off season. Better than most. It wasn't perfect and we can strive to be better

 

[MUFC7]

The balance of SUPPLY and demand determines the price. The more scarce the resource in question, the higher the price would be. That is why unique individualistic artifacts of any kind are always valued high and mass produced artifacts of the same purpose are worth less.

But that just emphasizes your point on the matter. If Gronk would have hit the FA, he propably would have been "a scarce resource" and made a HUGE payday.

I am sorry now I have the right definition, thank you!

When english isn't your first language the more scientific phrases are a bit harder to find and so I went with the one that sounded the most like the one I know. But as you rightly pointed out the demand is huge (honestly every team wants a Gronk, even the Saints with Graham) and there isn't another one like him so the price would be crazy. I think in FA he would easily make more than 10m$ considering the Megatron and Fitzgerald contracts.

 

[Patriot Missile]

I am sorry now I have the right definition, thank you!

When english isn't your first language the more scientific phrases are a bit harder to find and so I went with the one that sounded the most like the one I know. But as you rightly pointed out the demand is huge (honestly every team wants a Gronk, even the Saints with Graham) and there isn't another one like him so the price would be crazy. I think in FA he would easily make more than 10m$ considering the Megatron and Fitzgerald contracts.

Don't worry about it. For not being your first language you write excellent. Many posters would be envious of your writing skills. Actually, you could probably teach English classes at any college in New York and be one of the top minds in the field.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Graham was a great blocker but nowhere near the passing threat of either Gronk or Hernandez. He's also not worth 6m per season as a 3rd TE. The Broncos awarded him a 5 year/30m free agent contract. And that's why he's not a Patriot anymore. For the money, I don't miss him.

Pats have enough backup tightends with Fells and Shiancoe. Ballard when healthy next season could be really good for us as a #3 TE. Or we might draft another TE such as a Travis Kelce. Who knows.

You went off on a tangent but my point was that Graham in his prime > Fells & Shiancoe.

 

[mgteich]

DEFENSE - A-

We needed to replace the production of Carter and Anderson. We needed to improve our front seven. We needed secondary help. All were addressed. If there was an issue, it was valuing Arrington and Dowling too highly.

FRONT SEVEN
The team had a concept of what they wanted to do with the front seven. Belichick brought in Fanene, Jones, Hightower and Bequette. I'm sure the expectation was that Cunningham and Ninkovich would thrive in the new defense, which they have. Belichick also brought in a couple of longshots for the future.

Every player didn't need work out. Clearly, the changes to the front seven have resulted in awesome results. Perhaps, the team needs to review its medical protocols to avoid a repeat of the Fanene fiasco, but luckily that failure was made up by the production of Cunningham.

I guess I would have preferred a "real" additional linebacker instead of our collection of special teamers (Koutouvides, Tarpinian, White and Carpenter). But, I can't complain much since I considered Carpenter as a reasonable choice. However, I don't think Belichick is happy giving any of them significant reps. As we know, the #1 backup linebacker is Ninkovich.

CORNERS
In some sense, this is a situation of over-valuaing players (as was the case with safeties in 2011). I suspect that Belichick thought that we were all set for 2012 with Arrington, McCourty and Dowling. He brought in Allen and Cole to compete with Moore for dime and backup duty. Cole is a solid addition as a corner and as a gunner. Belichick took a flyer on Dennard. We're very glad he did, although it was obviously risky to wait so long to pick him if he genuinely was a 2nd round talent. After all, he picked Cannon in the 5th last year in a similar situation.

Obviously, this position will need to be addressed again in 2013. However, IMHO, the secondary needs to be addressed every year, since we want to have 10 players, a half of which are likely to be bottom of the roster free agents or developmental players.

The bottom line is that the FO did fine bringing in Dennard and Cole.

SAFETY
What can I say. We had no nfl quality safeties for much of 2011. Chung is OK. The draft was awful at the safety position. There were lots of teams competing for the slim pickings in free agency. It is not at all clear that Belichick could have done any better. Gregory's injury was really a major blow. Wilson and Ebner were great picks for 2012 and for the future. We should have been fine with Chung, Gregory, Wilson and Ebner. Plan B was and is to move a corner over to safety in the case of 2 injuries. Wilson's development in camp allowed us to carry only 3 safeties and a special teamer.

I am NOT disappointed with what the FO did at safety. We need Gregory or Chung to be healthy. The Bottom Line is that we had nothing and Belichick was able to put together an OK group, which is a major miracle given how little was available.

Very interesting thread. The FO certainly DID crush it with the Gronk and Hernandez signings. The value we will get for those contracts over the next 4 years compared to the impact of those 2 players is outstanding.....especially when you consider what has being paid to other receivers out there.

However since we have little to do the next 2 weeks we might as well pick at the scabs of what in reality has been an outstanding off season.

THE DRAFT -

Jones, Hightower, Wilson, Dennard and Ebner have to be all considered home runs....at this point of their careers if you consider expectations, impact, and snaps. How they all end up is still a question,but at this moment in time those 5 players have been good picks.

Jake Bequette however is another story. Granted like the others, we have no idea how this kid will turn out, but given his impact so far, (or lack thereof) I bet the Draft gurus here could drop some names with perfect 20-20 vision, that could have been found at the end of the 3rd round or the beginning of the 4th that would have proven more impactful in a perfect world

Ebert looked like a decent pick in the 7th, but I guess not. He not only didn't make our PS, but we literally gave up a pick to get another PS player who isn't as fast. So I guess he wasn't that good. BTW- IIRC I don't think he hooked on with another PS. Am I right on that?

FA -

Here we had a lot less success.

1. We'd all like to have a Red Bryant do over, especially given the way the Jonathan Fenene thing turned out. How much better would we be right now if we he had someone capable of pushing the pocket better than what we have now. A healthy Fenene would have been a big plus, let alone Red Bryant and a few less million dollars

2. The Brian Waters fiasco - I don't know how much better the OL might have been with Waters on board and how all the rest of pieces fit, but, but it couldn't have hurt to know earlier how it would end. My guess is the blame is more on Waters than the Pats for his indecision, but in this perfect off season, you'd like to think something could have been done.

3. The long list of FA signees (( think we had the most in the league by far), and the long list of those signees who got cut

4. The number of FA signees who have actually had an impact.

DFells - no
M Hoo hoo - no
VShianco - no
Bobby Carpenter - no
Ballard - no
M Cole - No (but on the rise)
SGregory - Yes (but not in the last 4 games due to injury)
BLloyd - Yes

So we signed 13 FA's this off season IIRC, and right now only 1 and a half have had any impact. That's not exactly stellar......so far. Especially when you consider the season before we signed 2 FA's that turned out to be first team all pros and another who got 10 sacks and a big contract elsewhere.

5. I'm OK we didn't sign Wekler to a long term deal worth in excess of $8MM/yr, though in an ideal world they could have gotten something done in the $6MM/yr area.

So whlie this was a great off season. Better than most. It wasn't perfect and we can strive to be better