The Defensive Front 7 - Lots of Work, Lots Of Options

[Chris Stevenson]

Yeah that's a point that many people had been missing. Throughout training camp, Wise Jr was outplaying Rivers on a consistent basis. He wouldn't have given us anything more than what Wise gave us this year.

They're totally 2 different style players.

 

[captain stone]

fair enough

Noting how little injured players contribute accomplishes little.

Except to remind us that Valentine & McClellin had been injured/ineffective before ever playing here, are injured again now, and are almost guaranteed to be injured/ineffective again in the future.

 

[Sciz]

I’m interested to see how much they’re willing to invest in another linebacker. The NFL’s move toward LB/S tweeners has given the Patriots an opportunity to collect a bunch of guys with edge and off-the-ball versatility (who were hit especially hard by injuries this season), but I think at some point they’ll want to take a shot on a Bruschi/Mayo kind of “weakside” linebacker. Are they willing to spend $5-7 million per year on a free agent or a top 50 draft pick on a rookie? Otherwise it might be back to linebacker-by-committee, which we did see work a year ago with better surrounding talent.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

Except to remind us that Valentine & McClellin had been injured/ineffective before ever playing here, are injured again now, and are almost guaranteed to be injured/ineffective again in the future.

Maybe. Maybe not. Amendola and Edelman, Hightower, Cannon, etc, etc, have also been injured some, and they're pretty important to winning SBs, too.

Sort of lame to pretend injuries are predictable and if a player isn't that costly, you have to rol the dice and hope there aren't anymore, with a contingency in place.

Since McClellin has not announced his retirement yet, I am holding out hope he will go one more year.

 

[maineman209]

Except to remind us that Valentine & McClellin had been injured/ineffective before ever playing here, are injured again now, and are almost guaranteed to be injured/ineffective again in the future.

McClellin was NOT particularly effective as a rotational DE in the Bears' 4-3 in his first three seasons. When the Bears changed to a 3-4 in 2015 with McClellin playing OLB, he suddenly became their second leading tackler.

However, he missed an average of three games a season due to a wide variety of injuries, including at least three separate (known) instances of concussion. He's currently on IR with an "undisclosed" injury, although most reasonably reliable media have been reporting it as concussion.

McCellin's 2018 cap hit is $3.18M

As a Senior at Nebraska, Valentine missed a couple games to a foot issue and a couple more to an ankle issue. With the Pats as a rookie in 2016, he missed three mid-season games with a back issue.

In 288 snaps (13 games, 2 starts) as a rookie reserve DT in 2016 behind Branch and Brown, he contributed 19 total tackles and a sack. For comparison, in 2017 ...
- DT Branch played 274 snaps (12 games, 6 starts) = 12 total tackles.
- DT (rookie) Butler played 472 snaps (16 games, 6 starts) = 19 total tackles, 2 sacks.
- DE Eric Lee played 281 snaps (6 games, 5 starts) and contributed 19 total tackles, 3.5 sacks, 2 PDs and an INT.

Valenitine's 2018 cap hit is $806k.

 

[Sciz]

However, he missed an average of three games a season due to a wide variety of injuries, including at least three separate (known) instances of concussion. He's currently on IR with an "undisclosed" injury, although most reasonably reliable media have been reporting it as concussion.

Howe recently confirmed that it was in fact two concussions. The first sent him to IR, and the second prevented him from coming off.

 

[captain stone]

McClellin was NOT particularly effective as a rotational DE in the Bears' 4-3 in his first three seasons. When the Bears changed to a 3-4 in 2015 with McClellin playing OLB, he suddenly became their second leading tackler.

However, he missed an average of three games a season due to a wide variety of injuries, including at least three separate (known) instances of concussion. He's currently on IR with an "undisclosed" injury, although most reasonably reliable media have been reporting it as concussion.

McCellin's 2018 cap hit is $3.18M

As a Senior at Nebraska, Valentine missed a couple games to a foot issue and a couple more to an ankle issue. With the Pats as a rookie in 2016, he missed three mid-season games with a back issue.

In 288 snaps (13 games, 2 starts) as a rookie reserve DT in 2016 behind Branch and Brown, he contributed 19 total tackles and a sack. For comparison, in 2017 ...
- DT Branch played 274 snaps (12 games, 6 starts) = 12 total tackles.
- DT (rookie) Butler played 472 snaps (16 games, 6 starts) = 19 total tackles, 2 sacks.
- DE Eric Lee played 281 snaps (6 games, 5 starts) and contributed 19 total tackles, 3.5 sacks, 2 PDs and an INT.

Valenitine's 2018 cap hit is $806k.

I'm not suggesting that Valentine be waived without being given a chance to compete for a job; again, that's what TC is for.

McClellin, however, and his cap hit need to just go away, for our sake as well as his. We need that money to sign somebody more durable, more reliable, and just plain Better.

 

[BTTA]

Belichick to fans, through Bedard: You and your pass-rush dreams can go pound sand.

Bedard: Analyzing why Bill Belichick is not going to unleash the rush you're hoping for

 

[HailHydra]

And that still would've been more than what GeeNo Gruesome, Cassius Marsh & Eric Lee gave us this year.

Eric Lee played well for us in a few games

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

This is really a front 6, not a front 7. The Patriots base defense uses five defensive backs.

This is simply not a good overall unit and needs a huge upgrade in talent. You can only coach them up so much, and much of their perceived competency was due to an extremely good secondary. After an oft-injured Hightower and very solid (but not elite) T Flowers, who is the third best overall player in the front 6? Malcolm Brown. Solid player, far from elite. After Brown...is there really anyone who could be considered a good player? A lot of average to below average guys who benefit from superior coaching and scheme, and the benefit of having a lead all the time. Quite simply, they either need to find some gems in free agency, hit some home runs in the draft, or hope some young, injured guys progress. Otherwise, don’t kid yourselves, as this unit is far from average and a lot of these players wouldn’t sniff the field (or roster) on other Patriots teams of the past.

 

[maineman209]

I'm not suggesting that Valentine be waived without being given a chance to compete for a job; again, that's what TC is for.

McClellin, however, and his cap hit need to just go away, for our sake as well as his. We need that money to sign somebody more durable, more reliable, and just plain Better.

I agree that it certainly seems high time for McClellin to retire.

Interesting cap situation with McClellin, though (that may also apply to Bennett).

McClellin's 2018 cap hit is $3.18M, which includes the $833k final portion of his signing bonus. If he's medically cleared (to participate in football) and cut, the Pats cap savings would be about $1.87M ($2.35M salary minus the $480k minimum cost of a replacement player).

However, if he's NOT medically cleared (and he might never be cleared), the Pats could owe him a little over $1M as a CBA-mandated medical benefit. I don't know if that expense would be charged against the cap or not.

With Bennett, what happens to his roster bonus on March 14th if he's not yet medically cleared?

 

[supafly]

McClellin, however, and his cap hit need to just go away, for our sake as well as his. We need that money to sign somebody more durable, more reliable, and just plain Better.

I think there’s a good chance that you get your wish.

 

[mosi]

We need impact LBs. LBs that can cover. I still feel rivers can be a player even coming back from injury.

I agree needing LB that can have impact but I have no faith in a rookie coming back from a serious knee injury.

 

[mgteich]

Richard Seymour was a freak of nature, and was probably the best 3-4 DE (5 tech, I believe) of his generation.

Understanding the fact that they don’t have the same responsibilities in the same scheme, guys like Trey Flowers or even Chandler Jones couldn’t hold Richard Seymour’s jock strap.

Seymour was a great player, and I believe was draft at #6. We don't daft at that level very often.

 

[mgteich]

My only concern with Rivers is the damnation of rookie IR and how infrequently they ever go on to amount to much......right now we have 2 of them......Garcia, too

it would be huge if they showed up

It would be great if either showed up, this year or next.

However, Belichick gives high draft picks a 2nd year to develop, and sometimes a 3rd, if they aha been injured. Of course, belichick can change his strategy at any time. We just analyze based on 17 yeas of data.

 

[mgteich]

Rivers is definitely the wild card. But I won't count on much from him at this point. What was his injury anyways?

Would love it if we resigned M. Flowers.

I like Adam Butler and hope he continues to develop but he is probably more of a solid role player than anything. I am ok with that, but we would also need to count on Valentine coming back healthy. I wouldn't mind RJF resigning, it would be a reasonable price I would think and he is a solid veteran.

ankle/foot

 

[Tony2046]

This is really a front 6, not a front 7. The Patriots base defense uses five defensive backs.

This is simply not a good overall unit and needs a huge upgrade in talent. You can only coach them up so much, and much of their perceived competency was due to an extremely good secondary. After an oft-injured Hightower and very solid (but not elite) T Flowers, who is the third best overall player in the front 6? Malcolm Brown. Solid player, far from elite. After Brown...is there really anyone who could be considered a good player? A lot of average to below average guys who benefit from superior coaching and scheme, and the benefit of having a lead all the time. Quite simply, they either need to find some gems in free agency, hit some home runs in the draft, or hope some young, injured guys progress. Otherwise, don’t kid yourselves, as this unit is far from average and a lot of these players wouldn’t sniff the field (or roster) on other Patriots teams of the past.

I disagree. Imo, if they had the 2016 version of Branch this defense would have looked a lot better. Yes one guy who could command double teams up the middle would have had a trickle down effect.

The prototypical Patriots base is the 3-4. But we saw a lot of the 4-3 or 4-2 or the "Star"....blahhh..because they didn't have the stud NT to effectively run the 3-4. (Can Wilfork eat some avocados or something?)

Get that NT stud and Brown, Guy, VV etc.... become great complimentary players. And yes Brown is a good player.

Get that NT and Hightower, KVN, Flowers, Wise, Harrison and Rivers (depending on down and distance) now have an easier path to the QB or more importantly can control the line of scrimmage on running downs and collapse the pocket on passing downs.

By the way, I'm excited to see what the Pats 3-4 might look like next season..

Brown - NT stud - VV

Rivers - Hightower - KVN - Flowers

That's a 3-4 with speed, experience and power.

Damn. Please find that stud BB. Please.

I'm almost tempted to advocate for Poe. Not sure if he's technically sound or not but that is one strong powerful dude. Unfortunately he'll be too expensive.

 

[Soliel]

We could put mannequins in the secondary. They beat out richards

 

[supafly]

We could put mannequins in the secondary. They beat out richards

81 yards given up on only 3 passes, and 11 snaps total. What a joke. As if the KC opener didn’t teach anyone anything.

Not only did he fail at covering, he failed miserably at tackling, which was supposed to be his strong point.

 

[micronin127]

The two biggest differences between the 2016 Patriots front-7 (Super Bowl Champs) and the 2017 Patriots front-7 (Super Bowl Participants):
1. Alan Branch - showed up out of shape and never got into shape
2. Donta Hightower - injured reserve

Now, if Vincent Valentine hadn't been on IR as well and Malcom Brown didn't have a late season ankle injury we might have been able to replace the interior pocket pusher and run stuffer. Our defense needs a guy who can hold his ground in the interior. We didn't have that this year.

Hightower is a premier player at the 2nd level and we tried to patch together a group of LBs with defined roles to cover up for his absence, and it worked OK most of the year all the way to the Super Bowl.

I would draft a DT somewhere Day 1 or Day 2, not sure if you go classic 3-4 NT or if you look for a little more athleticism which seems trendy in the NFL as everyone looks for the next Aaron Donald. For his size, Vince Wilfork had athleticism, that is the type of player they need again. Not just a big guy. A big guy who is "athletic for his size".