The Defensive Front 7 - Lots of Work, Lots Of Options

[mgteich]

Gone: Branch, Harris

DT/NT (4-5)
Brown, Valentine, Guy
1) re-sign Francois
2) add a couple

DE/LB (9-10)
ALMOST LOCKS: Hightower, Van Noy, T Flowers, Wise, A Butler, Rivers

COMPETING
DEFEAULT: Lee, Roberts, McClellan, Grigsby, Grissom
Kidder, Davis

POTENTIAL RE-SIGNS
Harrison (likely to re-sign)
M Flowers (Miguel thinks that he'll go elsewhere; he will likely test free agency)
King (a STer, usually listed/counted as a LB)

BOTTOM LINE
We have 9; 5 are wide open, depending on health and performance. This core of 9 is likely good enough to be top 5 in points allowed for the last half (yet again). Obviously, this presumes that we get something from the additional six, or that no one is injured.

Finally, we do indeed have lots of room for improvement. IMHO, extending Harrison is a good start.

ALMOST LOCKS (9)
DL: Wise, Flowers, Brown, Guy, Valentine, A Butler
LB: Hightower, Van Noy, Rivers

 

[SammyBlueCat]

We need.... I won't say it.

 

[upstater1]

Rivers has got to be a lock.

 

[Uptown]

Trade with WAS for DE Anthony Lanier. Nice young player!

 

[mgteich]

Rivers has got to be a lock.

As soon as he can pass a physical, Rivers is a lock. Perhaps this has already happened.

But, you're right. I listed Valentine; I should list Rivers.

However, I don't expect a lot from Rivers. He's been injured, and he didn't look good before his injury.

 

[captain stone]

We currently have 4 picks within the top 100. I really, really hope that at least 3 of those 4 are spent on defense, and at least 2 of those 3 are spent on the Front 7. I don't feel that is unreasonable by any stretch.

Depth chart at DT:
Brown
Guy
Butler
Branch
Valentine

Branch will almost certainly become a deserved cap casualty.

Valentine is always injured, and wasn't anything special when he wasn't.

If Francois is re-signed, it should only be for 1 year, vet minimum, no bonuses.
And even if Francois is re-signed, there should still be room on the TC roster for
2-3 more DTs, including one of the aforementioned top-100 picks.

I would be ok probably if the DTs on the Opening Day 53 were Brown, Guy, Butler & a top-100 pick.

Depth chart at DE:
T. Flowers
Wise
Derek Rivers
Eric Lee
GeeNo Gruesome
Keionta Davis

Lee & Gruesome are absolutely not a damn thing more than TC fodder.

I would re-sign James Harrison if practicable. And even if he is re-signed, there should still be room on the TC roster for 1-2 more DEs. Rivers' progress with his injury (and to an obviously lesser extent, Davis' progress with his injury) might be the determining factor in Bill's decision to spend another top-100 pick on a DE.

I would be ok I guess if the DEs on the Opening Day 53 were Flowers, Wise, Harrison, a healthy Rivers & a healthy Davis.

Depth chart at LB:
Van Noy
Hightower
Harris
Roberts
Grigsby
Langi
McClellin

McClellin will almost certainly become another well-deserved cap casualty.

Harris will also likely become one too, although I still feel that he never really got a chance here vs power-running teams such as Buffalo & Tennessee.

Grigsby is probably nothing more than TC fodder, but we shall see.

Roberts is a complete feckin disgrace. I'm still pissed-off that this useless sack of sh!t played ahead of Harris.

Langi is still a complete unknown, sadly.

That leaves only Van Noy & a severely-damaged-goods Hightower. Wow.

I would re-sign M. Flowers if practicable. And even if he is re-signed, there should still be room on the TC roster for At Least Four More LBs, including without a damn doubt a top-100 draft pick. No excuses, Bill.

I would have to be ok, but with All fingers & thumbs & toes crossed, if the LBs on the Opening Day 53 were Van Noy, a healthy Hightower, Flowers, a healthy Langi, Grigsby & a top-100 pick.

 

[mgteich]

You have more faith in the ability of rookies to contribute as rookies, especially those picked after the 25th pick. For every success, there is a likely failure (or at best someone who needs a year to develop).

It is not at all unreasonable to hope that we have 2 picks out of the top 100 spend on the front 7.

With regard to Marquis Flowers, I suspect that he will try free agency.

We currently have 4 picks within the top 100. I really, really hope that at least 3 of those 4 are spent on defense, and at least 2 of those 3 are spent on the Front 7. I don't feel that is unreasonable by any stretch.

Depth chart at DT:
Brown
Guy
Butler
Branch
Valentine

Branch will almost certainly become a deserved cap casualty.

Valentine is always injured, and wasn't anything special when he wasn't.

If Francois is re-signed, it should only be for 1 year, vet minimum, no bonuses.
And even if Francois is re-signed, there should still be room on the TC roster for
2-3 more DTs, including one of the aforementioned top-100 picks.

I would be ok probably if the DTs on the Opening Day 53 were Brown, Guy, Butler & a top-100 pick.

Depth chart at DE:
T. Flowers
Wise
Derek Rivers
Eric Lee
GeeNo Gruesome
Keionta Davis

Lee & Gruesome are absolutely not a damn thing more than TC fodder.

I would re-sign James Harrison if practicable. And even if he is re-signed, there should still be room on the TC roster for 1-2 more DEs. Rivers' progress with his injury (and to an obviously lesser extent, Davis' progress with his injury) might be the determining factor in Bill's decision to spend another top-100 pick on a DE.

I would be ok I guess if the DEs on the Opening Day 53 were Flowers, Wise, Harrison, a healthy Rivers & a healthy Davis.

Depth chart at LB:
Van Noy
Hightower
Harris
Roberts
Grigsby
Langi
McClellin

McClellin will almost certainly become another well-deserved cap casualty.

Harris will also likely become one too, although I still feel that he never really got a chance here vs power-running teams such as Buffalo & Tennessee.

Grigsby is probably nothing more than TC fodder, but we shall see.

Roberts is a complete feckin disgrace. I'm still pissed-off that this useless sack of sh!t played ahead of Harris.

Langi is still a complete unknown, sadly.

That leaves only Van Noy & a severely-damaged-goods Hightower. Wow.

I would re-sign M. Flowers if practicable. And even if he is re-signed, there should still be room on the TC roster for At Least Four More LBs, including without a damn doubt a top-100 draft pick. No excuses, Bill.

I would have to be ok, but with All fingers & thumbs & toes crossed, if the LBs on the Opening Day 53 were Van Noy, a healthy Hightower, Flowers, a healthy Langi, Grigsby & a top-100 pick.

 

[HailHydra]

As soon as he can pass a physical, Rivers is a lock. Perhaps this has already happened.

But, you're right. I listed Valentine; I should list Rivers.

However, I don't expect a lot from Rivers. He's been injured, and he didn't look good before his injury.

Yeah that's a point that many people had been missing. Throughout training camp, Wise Jr was outplaying Rivers on a consistent basis. He wouldn't have given us anything more than what Wise gave us this year.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

We need impact LBs. LBs that can cover. I still feel rivers can be a player even coming back from injury.

 

[captain stone]

You have more faith in the ability of rookies to contribute as rookies, especially those picked after the 25th pick. For every success, there is a likely failure (or at best someone who needs a year to develop).

It is not at all unreasonable to hope that we have 2 picks out of the top 100 spend on the front 7...

I didn't mention how much or how little these Front-7 rookies might contribute;
I just want to see at least two top-100 picks on the Opening Day roster to replace the useless dreck like Branch, Valentine, Lee, Gruesome, McClellin & Roberts, all of whom contributed nothing anyway.

 

[captain stone]

Yeah that's a point that many people had been missing. Throughout training camp, Wise Jr was outplaying Rivers on a consistent basis. He wouldn't have given us anything more than what Wise gave us this year.

And that still would've been more than what GeeNo Gruesome, Cassius Marsh & Eric Lee gave us this year.

 

[mgteich]

fair enough

Noting how little injured players contribute accomplishes little.

I didn't mention how much or how little these Front-7 rookies might contribute;
I just want to see at least two top-100 picks on the Opening Day roster to replace the useless dreck like Branch, Valentine, Lee, Gruesome, McClellin & Roberts, all of whom contributed nothing anyway.

 

[doesntmatter1]

Our front seven would be better if we added more size. Everyone wants speed but we simply do not utilize speed well. The undersized linebackers we all crave such as Lavonte David, Kuechly, etc never come our way and the closest we get to that is Marquise Flowers. But when we go bargain shopping for slow oversized hulks at least they stop the run and get effective jams. Taller would help as well. We don't get nearly enough tipped passes.

As the years go by, it is really easy to see that I didn't truly appreciate how good Richard Seymour was. He tipped passes, got sacks from the interior, and stopped the run. Tre Flowers is the closet we have to Seymour at the moment but he doesn't effect passing lanes.

 

[supafly]

As the years go by, it is really easy to see that I didn't truly appreciate how good Richard Seymour was. He tipped passes, got sacks from the interior, and stopped the run. Tre Flowers is the closet we have to Seymour at the moment but he doesn't effect passing lanes.

Richard Seymour was a freak of nature, and was probably the best 3-4 DE (5 tech, I believe) of his generation.

Understanding the fact that they don’t have the same responsibilities in the same scheme, guys like Trey Flowers or even Chandler Jones couldn’t hold Richard Seymour’s jock strap.

 

[DarrylS]

Richard Seymour was a freak of nature, and was probably the best 3-4 DE (5 tech, I believe) of his generation.

Understanding the fact that they don’t have the same responsibilities in the same scheme, guys like Trey Flowers or even Chandler Jones couldn’t hold Richard Seymour’s jock strap.

I agree, am sure you remember how often Seymour was denigrated on this message board and was chastised as he did not show up in the box score.. only to have BB ascend to the podium following any game and would tell the world what a great game he played the previous Sunday..

NFL fans have always been enamored with gaudy stats like sacks etc.

 

[maineman209]

Rivers has got to be a lock.

Why? What has he shown (performance-wise) since his injury that makes him a lock for anything but the 90-man off-season roster?

 

[maineman209]

Our front seven would be better if we added more size. Everyone wants speed but we simply do not utilize speed well. The undersized linebackers we all crave such as Lavonte David, Kuechly, etc never come our way and the closest we get to that is Marquise Flowers. But when we go bargain shopping for slow oversized hulks at least they stop the run and get effective jams. Taller would help as well. We don't get nearly enough tipped passes.

As the years go by, it is really easy to see that I didn't truly appreciate how good Richard Seymour was. He tipped passes, got sacks from the interior, and stopped the run. Tre Flowers is the closet we have to Seymour at the moment but he doesn't effect passing lanes.

Marquis Flowers is actually about 245-250# and just under 6'3". Harris, McClellin, Langi and Van Noy are all pretty close to that size. Rivers (6041/248) is about the same. HT, weighs around 265# (at 6030, that's 4-3 DE size).

Roberts (5110/245-250), Harrison (listed at 6'0/242) and special-teamer Grigsby (listed at 6001/230) are the "smaller" guys.

Seymour was a 6'6" defensive tackle drafted out of Georgia to play defensive end in the Pats 3-4. For most of his NFL career, he was listed at 305#-310#. In the Pats' current 4-3/3-4 hybrid front, Seymour would most likely be playing a DT/DE role, similar to Guy and Adam Butler.

Trey Flowers (6020/265) is pretty much the same size as Hightower - probably about league average for a 4-3 DE, though slightly smaller than McGinest at 6'5". Flowers' role in the Pats' current scheme is vastly different from what Seymour's role was in the 3-4. In that defense, Flowers would've been an OLB.

PDs at or behind the LoS did seems to be lacking a bit this season compared to previous seasons, and I didn't see DL players getting their hands up very often when rushing. Not sure why. Although, with Butler and Wise being rookies and Guy being new to the Pats system and schemes, it may have been considered a "refinement" that was not a top-priority point of emphasis this season.

 

[IllegalContact]

My only concern with Rivers is the damnation of rookie IR and how infrequently they ever go on to amount to much......right now we have 2 of them......Garcia, too

it would be huge if they showed up

 

[patriot1136]

Rivers is definitely the wild card. But I won't count on much from him at this point. What was his injury anyways?

Would love it if we resigned M. Flowers.

I like Adam Butler and hope he continues to develop but he is probably more of a solid role player than anything. I am ok with that, but we would also need to count on Valentine coming back healthy. I wouldn't mind RJF resigning, it would be a reasonable price I would think and he is a solid veteran.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

Richard Seymour was a freak of nature, and was probably the best 3-4 DE (5 tech, I believe) of his generation.

Understanding the fact that they don’t have the same responsibilities in the same scheme, guys like Trey Flowers or even Chandler Jones couldn’t hold Richard Seymour’s jock strap.

Agreed. They're very different players. Jones is wildly overrated because he collects sacks and people think that is the most important thing, when it isn't.

Once Seymour established a bit of a 'tude after his 2006 injury to his leg, he wasn't as good, though. BB dealing him off for a 1st to draft Solder, to save money towards the Brady, Mayo, Mankins deals, was an easy choice.