the BEST patriot player in our history ?

[Willie55]

I hate to break the illusion, but they did actually play for Super Bowls before 2001.

What are you talking about, the league was incorporated in 2001.

 

[RayClay]

What are you talking about, the league was incorporated in 2001.

Thanks for having a sense of humor. I am a huge fan of players that deliver in the clutch and Brady is tops.

Nevertheless, if you saw this TV show with video isolating on Hannah it would blow your mind.

I seriously don't care who the "best" player is. We have the best organization and coach and quarterback and that's fantastic.

If you know or remember how f***d our ownership and coaching situations were in the early years it's amazing we had some of the great players and good teams we did.

 

[PatsSteve1]

I checked the record books and Tom Brady isn't listed as ever having won a Super Bowl. It does list his team, the New England Patriots as having won 3 SB's. I suggest folks look at the 3 SB video's and see if #12 is the only player on the field. I know he's not. There are many Patriots players out there making big plays to help win those trophy's. IMO, saying a certain player won a SB, usually a QB, is little more than media 'over' hype. It's not even close to saying Tiger Woods has won a Masters. Brady QB'd a team that won 3 SB's. As did Trent Dilfer.
I'm not convinced if Brady got killed in a car accident tommorrow he'd make the HOF. Longevity does count. I don't think the answer to who's the greatest Patriot of all time should have anything to do with the position they played. If it does, then why not just ask who the best Patriots QB of all time was?
Until Brady plays a few more years at a high level, I'd pick John Hannah as the best Patriots player of all time. So far. Had M Haynes played more years as a Patriot, I might consider him. How many voting in this thread even saw either one play?

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Until Brady plays a few more years at a high level, I'd pick John Hannah as the best Patriots player of all time. So far. Had M Haynes played more years as a Patriot, I might consider him. How many voting in this thread even saw either one play?

I saw Hannah and Hayes play, great players. The descriptions of Hannah's blocking are not exaggerations. And Haynes was speed, size and intelligence. What a shame to let the guy go.

But the greatest Patriot has to be Doug Flutie.

 

[PromisedLand]

Sorry Hannah backers, but he was a freaking GUARD. He was definitely a great guard, but he was a GUARD. That position is, like all, one in which a weak link can ruin a team, but not one from which an individual, no matter how great, can lead a TEAM to greatness.

For me, it has to be Brady. 3 rings in 4 years as a starter.

 

[the taildragger]

That series of downs started first and goal on the 5, and we couldn't punch the GD ball in and had to resort to high risk ticky-tack.

Much of last year the D and the running game was inept due to injuries. TB carried the team on his back and led the league in passing. It could have easily been a losing season last year.

couldn't agree more.

weak ground game lost that game IMO -- especially in red zone.

As far as that particular play, we'd been completing passes over there on pick routes all night...Bailey just got wise to it, sat down on Troy, and jumped it...it looked like a really stupid decision, when in reality it was a very smart move by one of the most athletic and experienced corners in the league.

It wasn't Tom's sharpest performance, but it was hardly a "choke" (see: Manning vs. Steelers, Roethlisberger vs. Seahawks). Let's face it, we weren't meant to win -- nothing went our way.

we're never going to lose a game because Tom chokes.

He'll screw up every now and then, but he still has the lowest INT% in playoff history. But the "analysts" said he was "rattled"...yeah, he waited 11 playoff games before deciding to get rattled. he's human, we sometimes forget that. he absolutely carried the offense all year, and in some games he carried the entire team. There isn't another player in this league (not manning, not LT, nobody) who can do that.

The denver loss illustrates how important TB is to our success...if he screws up, we lose...period. Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson made mistakes in their runs which their teams were able to recover from.

SI just called TB the best player in the league (and the sportsman of the year). As fun as it is to see highlights of hannah steamrolling guys in space, he wasn't able to take over an entire game or close one out on a game-ending drive. QBs can lose games just as fast as they can win them -- hannah never had that level of responsibility.

again, the difference between hannah and brady isn't so much the player as the position.

but there's also separation between TB and all other QBs...

I was browsing IndyStar message board today and the top 3 topics were: "Fire Dungy?," "Have the Colts had a SB-caliber team?," and "How many more years for Polian?" -- they're starting to crack! When Indy wins games it's because of Manning (and all the unique responsibility he has), but when he wets his pants against a pass rush, they want to fire Dungy. SAD. Their problem couldn't be any more obvious -- the QB can't handle a playoff defense.

I don't consider PM a choker, I consider him overrated. If he faced a poor defense in the SB, I have no doubt he'd destroy it -- a choker struggles with the big stage -- PM's problem is that he can't handle solid defense.

It's not about how many rings or wins or which team is stronger...it's about raw skills.

Tom has superior QB skills -- he makes the position look easy. His strengths don't show up on highlight reels: it's the way he reads the defense ("good defenses"), the way he sees the field as the play develops, the speed that he makes decisions and his ability to make all the throws on time and on target. It's not necessarily spectacular stuff to watch, and most players see it the same way we do -- it's just not that "impressive." Drew Henson used to think he was a better QB than Tom in college -- but guess where he is?, try the Rhein Fire.

But ask Walsh about his skills, or even Martz. Eventually BB will weigh in with his opinion on how damn unbelievable and consistent our QB is, but we may have to wait a while for that.

I love guards and I love John friggin Hannah, but I'm really glad we've got our QB.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Klecko. Klecko can do anything. Except drop kick. That's why Flutie is the greatest.

 

[the taildragger]

I checked the record books and Tom Brady isn't listed as ever having won a Super Bowl. It does list his team, the New England Patriots as having won 3 SB's. I suggest folks look at the 3 SB video's and see if #12 is the only player on the field. I know he's not. There are many Patriots players out there making big plays to help win those trophy's. IMO, saying a certain player won a SB, usually a QB, is little more than media 'over' hype. It's not even close to saying Tiger Woods has won a Masters. Brady QB'd a team that won 3 SB's. As did Trent Dilfer.
I'm not convinced if Brady got killed in a car accident tommorrow he'd make the HOF. Longevity does count. I don't think the answer to who's the greatest Patriot of all time should have anything to do with the position they played. If it does, then why not just ask who the best Patriots QB of all time was?
Until Brady plays a few more years at a high level, I'd pick John Hannah as the best Patriots player of all time. So far. Had M Haynes played more years as a Patriot, I might consider him. How many voting in this thread even saw either one play?

who said he was the only guy on the field? we're debating the all-time MVP.

Anyone who thinks Dilfer is on Brady's level is on drugs.

btw, if he dies tomorrow he's already a better QB than Fouts...that puts him in the Hall.

 

[the taildragger]

you guys really giving me last word on this?

come on take your best shot...it was just starting to get good.

let's go hannah fans! capelletti fans!

alright, I'm OUT for now. later.

 

[RayClay]

Sorry Hannah backers, but he was a freaking GUARD. He was definitely a great guard, but he was a GUARD. That position is, like all, one in which a weak link can ruin a team, but not one from which an individual, no matter how great, can lead a TEAM to greatness.



For me, it has to be Brady. 3 rings in 4 years as a starter.

Of course. And you'd never draft a guard in the first round.

But he was drafted 4th overall. And he outplayed his draft position.

Obviously the fact he was a guard didn't tell the whole story did it?

If you've seen film of him and disagree, that's one thing.

If you didn't, maybe you just think you know a guard couldn't dominate a game with his physical play.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

Ray Clay,

most of the time I do agree with you, but if there was a draft and you could get a guaranteed HOF guard (Hannah) and a guaranteed HOF QB {on the level of Joe Montana} (Brady), very few GMs would take a guard with the 1st overall selection. Its no knock on Hannah. He's the best at his position. Its just that a HOF QB is more valuable due to his position.

There is a reasons that kickers, punters, guards, defensive tackles, safeties, and even LB and WR are rarely #1 overall picks in drafts. Most of the time it is a QB taken. Sometimes its a RB, pass rushing DE or a CB, or even sometimes a LT. Its not the player, its the position. Brady is a two-time SB MVP, and has led his team to three SB wins.

There is no way that I would trade Brady right now in his prime for John Hannah. I cannot think of one HOF player that I would trade Brady for. I really think that he is THAT good. JMHO but I think Brady and Montana is a wash.

As always, discussions like these are just friendly disagreements.

 

[scout]

It has to be Brady but I will always have a soft spot in my heart for Grogan. I loved the way he move away from everyone on the sidelines, sit on his helmet and pout. Also he once spat at Mean Joe Green and I think that deserves props.

I also loved Randy Vataha.

The Pats really need to do a ring of fame thing so fans can walk around it an get all sentimental.

Hannah was better when he had Leon Gray (RIP) beside him.

Does anyone know what ever happened to Tony Eason?

What? Get your facts right. He didn't spit on Mean Joe Green, it was an offensive lineman of the Steelers which spit in Grogan's face. Grogan then returned the favor. Afterwards, Grogan said the other guy had won because Grogan had brushed his teeth all week. I don't remember anything about the helmet except, people continuously getting on Russ Francis for pulling his off as he went to the sideline (long before Emmit). Randy Vataha, way down on the list. Stanley Morgan was a receiver. Tony Eason I'm sure is still nursing his freakin' wounds.

 

[MDPATSFAN]

Lonnie Paxton...Best Long Snapper in the whole NFL!!!!!!!!!

 

[RayClay]

Ray Clay,

most of the time I do agree with you, but if there was a draft and you could get a guaranteed HOF guard (Hannah) and a guaranteed HOF QB {on the level of Joe Montana} (Brady), very few GMs would take a guard with the 1st overall selection. Its no knock on Hannah. He's the best at his position. Its just that a HOF QB is more valuable due to his position.

There is a reasons that kickers, punters, guards, defensive tackles, safeties, and even LB and WR are rarely #1 overall picks in drafts. Most of the time it is a QB taken. Sometimes its a RB, pass rushing DE or a CB, or even sometimes a LT. Its not the player, its the position. Brady is a two-time SB MVP, and has led his team to three SB wins.

There is no way that I would trade Brady right now in his prime for John Hannah. I cannot think of one HOF player that I would trade Brady for. I really think that he is THAT good. JMHO but I think Brady and Montana is a wash.

As always, discussions like these are just friendly disagreements.

Most of the time you agree with me?

Well I'll answer quick since I'm sure they limit your computer time in whatever institution you are currently confined.

I'm just making an argument to the question who is the best player in our history.

If you look at the all-time NFL teams or ask NFL experts or compare based on what you know of Hannah's career, I think he has been the all-time great Patriot player.

Can you make an argument for Brady? Sure.

If Brady continues his excellent play will he be the greatest? Probably.

One could also argue that Brady has benefited by playing for the greatest Patriots coach ever and under an owner that is stable and willing to do whatever it takes.

Also, people are biased towards the quarterback as the only one who can influence a team to any extent. Again, Hostettler, Dilfer, Doug Williams.

Was Phil Simms good, sure. Was he more important than Lawrence Taylor? I don't think so.

One respondent opined that Quarterback was the only important position, maybe running back was second.

I've shown that one guard was more responsible for the greatest rushing season in NFL history than any of the 4 running backs he opened holes for.

It's more important to have good team players all around.

However, great is great and great players transcend the traditional limitations we try to saddle them with.

By any measure, John Hannah is one of the greatest players in NFL history.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

If you look at the all-time NFL teams or ask NFL experts or compare based on what you know of Hannah's career, I think he has been the all-time great Patriot player.

One could also argue that Brady has benefited by playing for the greatest Patriots coach ever and under an owner that is stable and willing to do whatever it takes.

Also, people are biased towards the quarterback as the only one who can influence a team to any extent. Again, Hostettler, Dilfer, Doug Williams.

I've shown that one guard was more responsible for the greatest rushing season in NFL history than any of the 4 running backs he opened holes for.

Good argument.

My reply would be that like Hannah, Brady was the dominant player on the team. Just like Hannah who opened holes for less-talented RB, Brady in his career so far has not benefited by a HOF WR like Rice, Lynn Swann, John Stallworth, Michael Irvin. (Branch getting in as of now is another debatable subject )

Furthermore, although teams in some years won with a so-so QB, off the top of my head I cannot think of any dynasty that hasn't been built apart from a HOF QB. Its hard to build a dynasty with a HOF Guard.

 

[PatsSteve1]

Tom Brady did not win any Super Bowls. The New England Patriots did.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

Tom Brady did not win any Super Bowls. The New England Patriots did.

True, but in 2 of them he was the most valuable player.

 

[RayClay]

I wouldn't say Bradshaw or Aikman were the greatest QBs of their generation. They performed when it counted and didn't make critical mistakes.

I would say that a consistently dominant ground attack makes it easier on a Qb.

Less risk, keeps the defense off the field eats up the clock.

I don't think Stephen Neal is going to greatly affect his teams chances every game.

To say "a guard" can't do something is to underestimate the difference between a very good lineman and a John Hanna. He was picked 4th overall and nobody ever said they picked him too high.

Seymour was picked 6th and he might be the greatest Patriot when it's all said and done.

Nevertheless, as fantastic a start as it has been, it's only been 5 years for Tom Terrific.

He'll have it all before he's done.

In a career, 5 years is a small sample.

Let's appreciate those who are in the Hall. Brady will have his time.

 

[Hoodie]

What? Get your facts right. He didn't spit on Mean Joe Green, it was an offensive lineman of the Steelers which spit in Grogan's face. Grogan then returned the favor. Afterwards, Grogan said the other guy had won because Grogan had brushed his teeth all week. I don't remember anything about the helmet except, people continuously getting on Russ Francis for pulling his off as he went to the sideline (long before Emmit). Randy Vataha, way down on the list. Stanley Morgan was a receiver. Tony Eason I'm sure is still nursing his freakin' wounds.

I remember reading about the Mean Joe Green incident in Newsweek. I like my version of it better anyway and because you don't remember the sitting on the helmet pout, I'm inclined to believe my memory is better than yours.

 

[PromisedLand]

Of course. And you'd never draft a guard in the first round.

But he was drafted 4th overall. And he outplayed his draft position.

Obviously the fact he was a guard didn't tell the whole story did it?

If you've seen film of him and disagree, that's one thing.

If you didn't, maybe you just think you know a guard couldn't dominate a game with his physical play.

I go all the way back to the beginning of the Patriots. I saw Gino Capelletti and Babe Parilli and Jim Nance and Jim Colclough play. Of course I saw Hannah play, and not just on film, in person. And yes, I disagree. OK?