The After Draft Scramble

[mgteich]

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Or are we talking someone who the opponent shifts their coverage to like it was Cooks. Who ended up being a decoy on around 60% of plays to create space.

We need someone who is a vertical threat, like Dorsett was supposed to be. And, sure, he can be a decoy most of the time if he takes the opponent's top corner downfield with him.

 

[luuked]

Newhouse and ferentz stink.
Jeffery is overrated and overpriced.
None of those QBs are any good.
Thuney is one of our best players.

So you are fine with carrying Thuney at 14M only to repeat the FA dance next year ? What makes it more likely he will sign an extension in a year than now ? Saying "duuh he is one of our best players" is a bit simplistic given his contractual situation.

 

[Ring 6]

So you are fine with carrying Thuney at 14M only to repeat the FA dance next year ? What makes it more likely he will sign an extension in a year than now ? Saying "duuh he is one of our best players" is a bit simplistic given his contractual situation.

I would extend him.

 

[luuked]

We need someone who is a vertical threat, like Dorsett was supposed to be. And, sure, he can be a decoy most of the time if he takes the opponent's top corner downfield with him.

So what you mean nominally by #1 receiver is a deep threat who moves coverage with him ?

Is a player like that worth the money they are getting given his lesser impact ? I mean we are not talking Deandre Hopkins level of targets and catches here but seemingly about what Cooks was for us in 2017.

 

[luuked]

I would extend him.

And if he doesn't agree to your offers ? Are you personally satisfied with a 3rd/4th round comp pick in 2022 while paying 14m ?

Because I can see why trading him -- even though I agree he definitely is one of the best players on the OL -- would make sense in the current situation.

 

[Clonamery]

The reality is that we should have a backup center. Ferentz did OK as a backup center (and terrible as a guard). Of course, we should spend money and sign a better backup center.

Sorry but he showed no growth year over year at C. Hopefully the guy picked in the 7th has something more than “ok” with no growth.

 

[jah]

The reality is that we should have a backup center. Ferentz did OK as a backup center (and terrible as a guard). Of course, we should spend money and sign a better backup center.

What about Ferentz's time at center looked OK to you?

 

[mgteich]

So what you mean nominally by #1 receiver is a deep threat who moves coverage with him ?

Is a player like that worth the money they are getting given his lesser impact ? I mean we are not talking Deandre Hopkins level of targets and catches here but seemingly about what Cooks was for us in 2017.

I said #1/#2, but yes.

I suspect that we tend to underestimate the cost of a #1 or #2 WR. In any case, as I said, I would be fine with trading for a different WR.

Ignoring the elephant in the room, IMO, the offense is NOT terrible. It is some health and a WR away from being at least an average offense.

 

[luuked]

I said #1/#2, but yes.

I suspect that we tend to underestimate the cost of a #1 or #2 WR. In any case, as I said, I would be fine with trading for a different WR.

Ignoring the elephant in the room, IMO, the offense is NOT terrible. It is some health and a WR away from being at least an average offense.

I wasn't trying to criticize the idea but was just openly thinking about whether the price tag is worth it.

With Cooks we got him on his rookie deal which given his role and impact was a steal. But that obviously would have changed quickly and the price tag the Rams paid for him would have been insane relative to his use in our offense.

I agree that the offense is not terrible. They will manage to be be around the average with Stidham's performance being the multiplier that can push it further into positive or negative territory.

 

[mgteich]

I wasn't trying to criticize the idea but was just openly thinking about whether the price tag is worth it.

With Cooks we got him on his rookie deal which given his role and impact was a steal. But that obviously would have changed quickly and the price tag the Rams paid for him would have been insane relative to his use in our offense.

I agree that the offense is not terrible. They will manage to be be around the average with Stidham's performance being the multiplier that can push it further into positive or negative territory.

Whether the price tag is worth it depends on the alternatives. I'm fine with a $6M 2020 cap hit, and $14M next year when we have the cap money.

 

[mgteich]

Sorry but he showed no growth year over year at C. Hopefully the guy picked in the 7th has something more than “ok” with no growth.

Ferentz is a JAG, a bottom of the roster backup player. I'm not looking for growth in these role players.

I have no reason to believe that a 7th rounder is ready to play in the NFL, and ready to start if needed. I would be absolutely fine if Woodard beat out Ferentz. It just isn't right to count on a 7th rounder who is not likely to make the team.

 

[luuked]

Whether the price tag is worth it depends on the alternatives. I'm fine with a $6M 2020 cap hit, and $14M next year when we have the cap money.

The thing is -- and this was pointed out by various beat guys like Howe -- that what the Pats generally have done is have the salaries very often reflect the status of players in terms of depth chart:

via https://theathletic.co.uk/309813/2018/04/12/howe-contracts-provide-a-peek-at-how-patriots-receiver-competition-stacks-up/

Sorry paywall but here is the Howe quote:

At minimum, the Patriots’ salary structure is relatively indicative of what Belichick expects to draw from each wideout, so it’s always worth examining the depth chart’s pay scale after a series of offseason additions.

So getting a nominal #1 receiver that then goes on to just be a decoy for more than the majority of snaps and pay him more than a player who produces like Edelman would not fly under that assumption. I guess it depends on what that player does with the times he gets targeted but to me the value equation just doesn't make sense beyond the rookie contract.

 

[mgteich]

The thing is -- and this was pointed out by various beat guys like Howe -- that what the Pats generally have done is have the salaries very often reflect the status of players in terms of depth chart:

via https://theathletic.co.uk/309813/2018/04/12/howe-contracts-provide-a-peek-at-how-patriots-receiver-competition-stacks-up/

Sorry paywall but here is the Howe quote:



So getting a nominal #1 receiver that then goes on to just be a decoy for more than the majority of snaps and pay him more than a player who produces like Edelman would not fly under that assumption. I guess it depends on what that player does with the times he gets targeted but to me the value equation just doesn't make sense beyond the rookie contract.

I hear you. But the market should dictate the price of a #2 WR (presuming Edelman as #1). If you consider the free agent to be the #1 WR, you don't have an issue. And to state the obvious, Edelman's having 90 or 100 catches does not necessarily make him the #1 WR.

 

[luuked]

I hear you. But the market should dictate the price of a #2 WR (presuming Edelman as #1). If you consider the free agent to be the #1 WR, you don't have an issue. And to state the obvious, Edelman's having 90 or 100 catches does not necessarily make him the #1 WR.

The crux is that I just don't think paying a classic vertical #1 guy market money has much value unless you actually leverage the **** out of his skill set.

Someone who can do it all like e.g. a sane version of AB or OBJ is a different story altogether. But given where this conversation started (i.e. the Jeffrey type) I don't see the same value proposition there. I know that you said you are not married to the idea of trading for Alshon but in the end the vertical type of player are pretty much the same prototype.

Maybe we will turn out to be a lot more vertical this year and then the equation would shift dramatically. But given the slot players they have been stocking up on and the other veterans in the room I don't really see a fundamental change happening.

 

[Ring 6]

And if he doesn't agree to your offers ? Are you personally satisfied with a 3rd/4th round comp pick in 2022 while paying 14m ?

Because I can see why trading him -- even though I agree he definitely is one of the best players on the OL -- would make sense in the current situation.

I am pursuing an extension first. I am managing the cap around his number. Trade is a last resort. I see no reason why a contract can not be worked out.

 

[luuked]

I am pursuing an extension first. I am managing the cap around his number. Trade is a last resort. I see no reason why a contract can not be worked out.

Cool. So you actually agree with @mgteich point about trading Thuney if no contract can be worked out.

Or are you rejecting the idea that Thuney and his agent might just use their leverage to ask for more than the Pats would like to offer (i.e. a market setting deal).

 

[Ring 6]

Cool. So you actually agree with @mgteich point about trading Thuney if no contract can be worked out.

Or are you rejecting the idea that Thuney and his agent might just use their leverage to ask for more than the Pats would like to offer (i.e. a market setting deal).

I explained what I think in detail. I am not interested in a dissection of every word and a prototypical pats fans “I’m going to twist you words that disagree with me into proving you agree with me”
I am not ready to give up on extending thuney, and am not interested in hypothetical fallback positions until they become necessity. The comment said “the time is now”. I do not agree. You can feel free to live the heck out of the idea, it makes no difference to me.
I left this board for a while because of these type of conversations. Came back for the draft. If all my posts are met with this approach I’ll just go away again because it’s not worth the time.

 

[luuked]

I left this board for a while because of these type of conversations. Came back for the draft. If all my posts are met with this approach I’ll just go away again because it’s not worth the time.

I mean you have been literally dodging a simple question over what to do with Thuney if he doesn't sign an extension over the course of 3 or 4 replies. So that back and forth is on you.

I am not ready to give up on extending thuney, and am not interested in hypothetical fallback positions until they become necessity.

Maybe just stay out of threads that specifically deal with hypotheticals then.

 

[Ring 6]

I mean you have been literally dodging a simple question over what to do with Thuney if he doesn't sign an extension over the course of 3 or 4 replies. So that back and forth is on you.



Maybe just stay out of threads that specifically deal with hypotheticals then.

Not dodging anything. Have been clear. I disagree “the time is now”. My approach is an extension and I wouldn’t trade him now if am agreement isn’t in place. Not even close to now.
You don’t have to agree, everyone gets to have their own opinion.

 

[ralmat55]

Ring 6

I enjoy your posts- they are thoughtful and informative. Hang in there and enjoy your passion for all things Patriot. We’re just a bunch of folk talking football. Let go of what bothers you and just enjoy the discussion.