The 2nd Patriots dynasty does not happen without Edelman. > NFL Hall of Fame.

[bormio]

What are the unimportant moments during games in the playoffs?

There aren’t. But some are more important than others. The moments that if you blow you cannot recover. The moments where you stick the dagger in or not. The Patriots’ offense in ‘10 and ‘11 was very good but was less effective late in big games - and they paid for it.

 

[bormio]

An aside question. 3rd and 10 at the KC 30 in OT in the AFCCG. Gronk catches for 15. What if it is incomplete? What do you do if you are BB?

 

[Pape]

An aside question. 3rd and 10 at the KC 30 in OT in the AFCCG. Gronk catches for 15. What if it is incomplete? What do you do if you are BB?

send rex burkhead up the middle for ten?

 

[Deus Irae]

There aren’t. But some are more important than others. The moments that if you blow you cannot recover. The moments where you stick the dagger in or not. The Patriots’ offense in ‘10 and ‘11 was very good but was less effective late in big games - and they paid for it.

So, to sum up, you just get to make up what constitutes a crucial moment according to however you feel in a given moment.


Sorry, but that's not a viable definition.


Also, using your definition, neither the Welker drop nor the Edelman ATL catch would qualify as one of those crucial moments.

 

[bormio]

So, to sum up, you just get to make up what constitutes a crucial moment according to however you feel in a given moment.


Sorry, but that's not a viable definition.

It’s like pornography. You know it (at least most of us) when you see it. But if you are having trouble, the down marker and clock can be a big help.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Three main questions I always ask ...

Were you a dominant player at your position? Top 1-5 for multiple years?

How did you effect the game from your position? WR for ex - Were you commanding the opposition's CB? Doubled? DC staying up at night and making it a point to stop you.

Stats/Records etc - Not the end all but they matter. How do they compare amongst your peers? What were your #'s when you left the game?

Playoffs, SB's, MVP's etc matter but not more than not more than the above for me. They can enhance your chances for me but again they don't matter as much for me as the others.

Is Torry Holt a HOF'r?


You start to look at guys like him and it puts it in perspective for me. Welker & Edleman were very good players but not HOF'rs.

Also two different players imo. Welker was pure slot. Tough as ****, consistent, productive. Ultimate chain mover.

Edleman was more versatile imo. Probably the better route runner. The big plays in thw reg & playoffs obviously stand out.

Both really help mold and influence the position. Both were extremely entertaining to watch. Proud to call them Pats.

 

[Deus Irae]

It’s like pornography. You know it (at least most of us) when you see it. But if you are having trouble, the down marker and clock can be a big help.

But that's nonsense.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Is Torry Holt a HOF'r?

Yes, without question.

 

[bormio]

So, to sum up, you just get to make up what constitutes a crucial moment according to however you feel in a given moment.


Sorry, but that's not a viable definition.


Also, using your definition, neither the Welker drop nor the Edelman ATL catch would qualify as one of those crucial moments.

The Welker drop was damn close to a dagger. And you are right, the Edelman catch was not a got to have thing - it was on first down. But it seemed to make Atlanta collapse mentally.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Yes, without question.

Shame he isn't in. One of the best route runners of all-time.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Shame he isn't in. One of the best route runners of all-time.

It was amazing how he’d run routes and catch passes without any DB around.

 

[Deus Irae]

The Welker drop was damn close to a dagger. And you are right, the Edelman catch was not a got to have thing - it was on first down. But it seemed to make Atlanta collapse mentally.

The Welker drop was on 2nd down, with more than 4 minutes remaining in the game. By no means does it qualify for "The moments that if you blow you cannot recover." status.

 

[bormio]

The Welker drop was on 2nd down, with more than 4 minutes remaining in the game. By no means does it qualify for "The moments that if you blow you cannot recover." status.

But if he catches it, first down at the 21, don’t run a play until 3:20 to go and have 3 plays to force NY to burn timeouts , with a chance for a TD or another first down that would end it. If Welker catches that ball, NE’s win percentage goes way up.

 

[Deus Irae]

But if he catches it, first down at the 21, don’t run a play until 3:20 to go and have 3 plays to force NY to burn timeouts , with a chance for a TD or another first down that would end it. If Welker catches that ball, NE’s win percentage goes way up.

Percentages go up or down based upon every play. The only true "Must have" is the last play at the buzzer. The secondary "must have" is the last play (4th down) of a trailing team, with almost no time on the clock, and certainly not enough for the defense to get the ball back.

Beyond that, it gets more and more murky.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

You and I look at the HOF criteria much differently.

I think @captain stone is closer to the mark historically, though with Edgerrin James getting in and chatter that selections will be easier in the future, who knows?

The Hall is pretty damn tough to get into (unless you’re Edgerrin James, a Steeler, or a New York QB.) There’s a pretty big logjam at WR too.

Or maybe it’s his use of the word should. Of course I’d love to see Edelman get in, but the bar is quite high.

 

[Tony2046]

I think @captain stone is closer to the mark historically, though with Edgerrin James getting in and chatter that selections will be easier in the future, who knows?

The Hall is pretty damn tough to get into (unless you’re Edgerrin James, a Steeler, or a New York QB.) There’s a pretty big logjam at WR too.

Or maybe it’s his use of the word should. Of course I’d love to see Edelman get in, but the bar is quite high.

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I agree. I consider you one of the forum's best authorities on things like this. But personally I think the HOF should be for the players that impacted the game elitely which can't always be measured with stats. Edelman, imo, belongs in the club of the "best of the best" because he is the best of the best. Earned rings, clutch moments and showing up big more than most including more than those who are already in the HOF are in his resume. Anyway outside of that I defer to you.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I agree. I consider you one of the forum's best authorities on things like this. But personally I think the HOF should be for the players that impacted the game elitely which can't always be measured with stats. Edelman, imo, belongs in the club of the "best of the best" because he is the best of the best. Earned rings, clutch moments and showing up big more than most including more than those who are already in the HOF is in his resume. Anyway outside of that I defer to you.

If I could give a Hall of Fame vote across all sports to any player who otherwise isn’t obvious, a homer vote with no explanation required and no claim of objectivity, it would go to Edelman (Troy Brown is close.)

As a silver lining, Edelman was a 7th round pick who appeared close to heading out of football in 2012/13 after a broken foot. He really only played heavy WR for six seasons. He never made the pro bowl or had 1,000 yards…and yet, I’d take his career/legacy over other Hall of Fame players like Cris Carter, Tim Brown, etc. 3X Super Bowl champ, Super Bowl MVP, immaculate reputation as a clutch player, so many moments of glory, unselfish teammate, etc.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

I agree. I consider you one of the forum's best authorities on things like this. But personally I think the HOF should be for the players that impacted the game elitely which can't always be measured with stats. Edelman, imo, belongs in the club of the "best of the best" because he is the best of the best. Earned rings, clutch moments and showing up big more than most including more than those who are already in the HOF are in his resume. Anyway outside of that I defer to you.

This does happen every once in awhile.

Gale Sayers won nothing and played only six years but was so superior as a player.

Lynn Swann made it really based on two Super Bowl catches.

Advocates for JE really need to harp the post season stats because he is second to Jerry Rice.

 

[Bruins29]

Too many people are adding emotion and intangibles in this HOF discussion. Its really simple.

WW can be considered for the HOF because he is the first WR in NFL history with at least three 110 reception seasons, and the first with five 100 reception seasons.

These are definitive facts and these facts put WW in an elite category..

JE is tougher because there is nothing unique about his career at all. Other WR have 3 or 4 SBs. Other WRs were very clutch at big moments. Other WR took big hits. Other WRs were better at defense. Another WR was better in the playoffs. JEs stats aren't otherworldly. He only played 16 games 3x. Only 3 seasons over 1000 yards. Only had 2 seasons over 100 catches. Not one AP or even PB.... Then the PED thing.

The only 2 arguments you can make for JE to the hall are his post season stats which are #2 behind Rice. Not sure a guy like JE would want to be famous for being #2 at anything. Or you can make an argument that Lynn Swann is in the HOF and JE was more impactful with less talent around him, a better player and a better special teams player than Swann.

Thats about it folks. I know everyone loves them some JE but people have to stop with the homerism. If JE played for another team and this discussion was started people would laugh at the notion and mock whomever suggested JE should be in the hall.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

Too many people are adding emotion and intangibles in this HOF discussion. Its really simple.

WW can be considered for the HOF because he is the first WR in NFL history with at least three 110 reception seasons, and the first with five 100 reception seasons.

These are definitive facts and these facts put WW in an elite category..

JE is tougher because there is nothing unique about his career at all. Other WR have 3 or 4 SBs. Other WRs were very clutch at big moments. Other WR took big hits. Other WRs were better at defense. Another WR was better in the playoffs. JEs stats aren't otherworldly. He only played 16 games 3x. Only 3 seasons over 1000 yards. Only had 2 seasons over 100 catches. Not one AP or even PB.... Then the PED thing.

The only 2 arguments you can make for JE to the hall are his post season stats which are #2 behind Rice. Not sure a guy like JE would want to be famous for being #2 at anything. Or you can make an argument that Lynn Swann is in the HOF and JE was more impactful with less talent around him, a better player and a better special teams player than Swann.

Thats about it folks. I know everyone loves them some JE but people have to stop with the homerism. If JE played for another team and this discussion was started people would laugh at the notion and mock whomever suggested JE should be in the hall.

You sum up the current philosophy well. However, as time goes by, the paradigm will most likely shift back based on the original intent of the HOF.

Time will see stats as an empty promise.

Why Welker deserves HOF is that he revolutionized the concept of the slot receiver and added a completely new dimension to how NFL teams run offenses. He was instrumental in materially changing how the game was played and how teams are structured. Ditto Gronk on that.

In the end, the intent of the HOF was to reward greatness.