Tebow, Blount, Edelman

[Patjew]

I agree 100% Desmos is NOT a troll. I like the poster Demos. However,as ironman has pointed out some on here consider any poster who is a fan Tebow to be a troll. In addition, some posters on here revert to cursing and name calling because you like Tebow.

You and I are kinda the same but really different.

 

[Demosthenes]

I can respect you enjoy for option football, I personally enjoy watching surgical QB's like Brady, Rodgers, etc in the NFL, however at the college level I share your enjoyment of the option.

The option offense is not a proven commodity at the NFL level. The speed of the players is much faster than in college. Also teams will always be reluctant to open their franchise QB's up to unnecessary hits. I was personally horrified to see what Shannan did with RGIII, and I'm very interested to see if Harbaugh plays Kaepernick as aggressively as a runner now that he doesn't have Smith on the bench.

Are his fans opposed to a position change? Knowing he's on a team with Brady and Tebow isn't going to see regular season snaps at QB wouldn't want to be able to see him play in some capacity?

This is probably a sacrilegious view around here, but "surgical precision" to me is kind of boring to watch. It's like watching a boxing match where a guy darts in and out landing jabs all through the match and ends up winning on points.

I'd much rather see two guys standing in the middle of the ring hammering each other with punches.

Another analogy that I came up with after reading your post was that watching "surgical precision" is kind of like watching Cirque de Soleil. You oooh and ahh for a while, admiring the precision and the artistry, but after 10 minutes, you start to yawn. I'd rather watch WWE wrestling for a few hours. Fake as ever, but entertaining.

My last point is that you could take Brady, or Manning, or Rodgers, stick them out on a flag football field and they'd still do the same thing with surgical precision. I don't like watching flag football. I want smash mouth football where everyone gets hit.

As for option football, true, it's not a proven commodity in the NFL as of yet. Even back before 2011, we kept hearing about how NFL teams will easily stop the option once they have some tape of it. Most teams couldn't do it. I daresay that if there were some NFL coaches who truly understood and employed option concepts, it would be very difficult to stop.

WRT "seeing more tape of it", the NFL has seen years of "tape" of the I formation, yet they have yet to figure out a way to definitively stop it.

As for the speed of the defenses, well, the offenses are faster as well for starters. The linemen are bigger and more capable overall.

Lastly, wrt QB injuries and franchise QBs, a couple of points. First, last time I checked, QBs do get injured while in the pocket. It's not like Brady was running the Zone Read when he was lost for a season. Peyton Manning wasn't out there running a sprint option. In the playoff game against the Pats, Tebow's injuries came about when he got crushed in the pocket by Wilfork and Ninko iirc. At Florida, his only serious injury came when he was standing in the pocket against Kentucky and ended up with a concussion.

Secondly, let's look a little closer at "Franchise QBs". They are paid so well because there is a scarcity of them. Out of all the QBs playing on the college level, very few have all the tools to be a "Franchise QB". Even fewer can rise to the level of being "elite". Just look at Andrew Luck for example. They were saying that he was the best "NFL Prospect" at QB since John Elway some 30 years ago.

Thing is, there are a lot more QBs out there running Spread Option offenses and doing it very well. Instead of having a $20mil per year QB like Manning, Flacco or Brees, being backed up by a $2 mil per year guy like Osweiler, or whomever is backing up Flacco and Brees, you could have 2 or 3 Spread Option QBs who are very close in talent and ability at a fraction of the price. If QB1 goes down, bring in QB2 without the huge drop in talent or ability.

On the subject of position change, my preference would be to see him play at QB again some time in the future. I'd rather him pull a Steve Young and disappear for a number of years then hit the field behind center in the shotgun.

Now, if the only options are for him to change position or be out of the NFL and out on the preaching circuit ? I'd prefer that he remain in the NFL.

 

[Christiancat]

demos I sent you a friends request.

 

[Demosthenes]

demos I sent you a friends request.

You don't have to announce it CC, as a notification pops up and tells the person of the request

 

[Brady6]

Demos: Just because he plays multiple positions in 2013 doesn't mean he'd never play QB again. It just means he is doing what the team needs for him to do in this upcoming season. As I mentioned in a previous post Edelman played DB all of 2011 many thought that was a permanent change. Last year was back playing WR and seeing a ton of playing time.

Tebow can still see reps at QB in practice, still work to develop his QB skill set in the background.

I don't think he makes the team unless he's doing more than QB in 2013, I don't see us carrying 3 QB's unless one is Tebow and he's doing other things to justify a roster spot. Mallett isn't able to and personally I just can't cut that potential draft value especially with the need to find a replacement for Hernandez now to.

 

[Christiancat]

You don't have to announce it CC, as a notification pops up and tells the person of the request

oh okay thanks.

 

[Christiancat]

I am open to Tim playing any position to help the Pats. However, I would prefer him to be the backup QB behind Brady.

 

[situational_awareness]

This is probably a sacrilegious view around here, but "surgical precision" to me is kind of boring to watch. It's like watching a boxing match where a guy darts in and out landing jabs all through the match and ends up winning on points.

I'd much rather see two guys standing in the middle of the ring hammering each other with punches.

Another analogy that I came up with after reading your post was that watching "surgical precision" is kind of like watching Cirque de Soleil. You oooh and ahh for a while, admiring the precision and the artistry, but after 10 minutes, you start to yawn. I'd rather watch WWE wrestling for a few hours. Fake as ever, but entertaining.

My last point is that you could take Brady, or Manning, or Rodgers, stick them out on a flag football field and they'd still do the same thing with surgical precision. I don't like watching flag football. I want smash mouth football where everyone gets hit.

As for option football, true, it's not a proven commodity in the NFL as of yet. Even back before 2011, we kept hearing about how NFL teams will easily stop the option once they have some tape of it. Most teams couldn't do it. I daresay that if there were some NFL coaches who truly understood and employed option concepts, it would be very difficult to stop.

WRT "seeing more tape of it", the NFL has seen years of "tape" of the I formation, yet they have yet to figure out a way to definitively stop it.

As for the speed of the defenses, well, the offenses are faster as well for starters. The linemen are bigger and more capable overall.

Lastly, wrt QB injuries and franchise QBs, a couple of points. First, last time I checked, QBs do get injured while in the pocket. It's not like Brady was running the Zone Read when he was lost for a season. Peyton Manning wasn't out there running a sprint option. In the playoff game against the Pats, Tebow's injuries came about when he got crushed in the pocket by Wilfork and Ninko iirc. At Florida, his only serious injury came when he was standing in the pocket against Kentucky and ended up with a concussion.

Secondly, let's look a little closer at "Franchise QBs". They are paid so well because there is a scarcity of them. Out of all the QBs playing on the college level, very few have all the tools to be a "Franchise QB". Even fewer can rise to the level of being "elite". Just look at Andrew Luck for example. They were saying that he was the best "NFL Prospect" at QB since John Elway some 30 years ago.

Thing is, there are a lot more QBs out there running Spread Option offenses and doing it very well. Instead of having a $20mil per year QB like Manning, Flacco or Brees, being backed up by a $2 mil per year guy like Osweiler, or whomever is backing up Flacco and Brees, you could have 2 or 3 Spread Option QBs who are very close in talent and ability at a fraction of the price. If QB1 goes down, bring in QB2 without the huge drop in talent or ability.

On the subject of position change, my preference would be to see him play at QB again some time in the future. I'd rather him pull a Steve Young and disappear for a number of years then hit the field behind center in the shotgun.

Now, if the only options are for him to change position or be out of the NFL and out on the preaching circuit ? I'd prefer that he remain in the NFL.

My first year of undergrad at UF was the Spurrier/Wuerffel national championship. I loved how Wuerffel QB'd our team, but Tommie Frazier at Nebraska was much more exciting.

Went back to grad school years later, and it was the Meyer/Leak/Tebow national championship. At the time, I was all about Chris Leak... a true pocket passer. I kept hearing all this hype about Tebow and was like, why do we need him? We have Leak!. But everyone in the local area had been following Tebow in high school (I was out of the country for a few years). I saw him come in the game and just get nothing but first downs and TDs. I was skeptical of his passing ability though.

The next year, Tebow took over and I was still wondering, can he pass though? After the first game, I knew this kid had something special. The passing ability of the best passers in the game, plus the running ability of the best running backs. On top of that, leadership abilities off the charts. Was the most exciting football to watch.

So, even though we had two national championships under pocket passers, Wuerffel and Leak, the Tebow games were much more exciting and fun to watch.

Like you, Demos... I am all about mobile QBs who can also throw. Back in the day, Randall Cunningham was my favorite QB to watch. I also liked Steve Young, Michael Vick, etc... It's just my preference. I like watching Brady, but it's more out of an appreciation for the brilliance and how he makes it look so easy. Brees is fun to watch too, especially when Sproles is on the field with him.

 

[Brady6]

I am open to Tim playing any position to help the Pats. However, I would prefer him to be the backup QB behind Brady.

I'd say the only way that he'd be Brady's backup in 2013 would be if a team was willing to give us what we want for Mallett during the preseason. Which seems highly unlikely.

 

[Christiancat]

I'd say the only way that he'd be Brady's backup in 2013 would be if a team was willing to give us what we want for Mallett during the preseason. Which seems highly unlikely.

What do you think the team wants for Mallett?

 

[Brady6]

What do you think the team wants for Mallett?

At least a 3rd round draft pick. It's remotely possible that if Weeden was to play awful in camp the Browns could come calling.

 

[Big-T]

At least a 3rd round draft pick. It's remotely possible that if Weeden was to play awful in camp the Browns could come calling.

If Weeden is awful in camp they will probably go with either Hoyer or Jason Campbell, Campbell is at least somewhat serviceable and wouldn't cost a rebuilding team a draft pick.

 

[robbomango]

My first year of undergrad at UF was the Spurrier/Wuerffel national championship. I loved how Wuerffel QB'd our team, but Tommie Frazier at Nebraska was much more exciting.

Went back to grad school years later, and it was the Meyer/Leak/Tebow national championship. At the time, I was all about Chris Leak... a true pocket passer. I kept hearing all this hype about Tebow and was like, why do we need him? We have Leak!. But everyone in the local area had been following Tebow in high school (I was out of the country for a few years). I saw him come in the game and just get nothing but first downs and TDs. I was skeptical of his passing ability though.

The next year, Tebow took over and I was still wondering, can he pass though? After the first game, I knew this kid had something special. The passing ability of the best passers in the game, plus the running ability of the best running backs. On top of that, leadership abilities off the charts. Was the most exciting football to watch.

So, even though we had two national championships under pocket passers, Wuerffel and Leak, the Tebow games were much more exciting and fun to watch.

Like you, Demos... I am all about mobile QBs who can also throw. Back in the day, Randall Cunningham was my favorite QB to watch. I also liked Steve Young, Michael Vick, etc... It's just my preference. I like watching Brady, but it's more out of an appreciation for the brilliance and how he makes it look so easy. Brees is fun to watch too, especially when Sproles is on the field with him.

I don't follow college ball but I often hear that Tebow was an accurate passer in College. What happened? How does being an NFL QB change that? Just curious...

 

[Big-T]

I don't follow college ball but I often here that Tebow was an accurate passer in College. What happened? How does being an NFL QB change that? Just curious...

From what I remember he had a lot of screens to the likes of Rainey, 1 yard passes into the EZ for Hernandez and then the bomb down field after setting the defense up with the run.

He also had that extra half a second of time in College in the pocket which of course made his big wind up much less of an issue.

 

[mgteich]

Are suggesting that the patriots would keep a roster spot warm for Mallett just because they think that they will get more in trade next year?

I'd say the only way that he'd be Brady's backup in 2013 would be if a team was willing to give us what we want for Mallett during the preseason. Which seems highly unlikely.

 

[Demosthenes]

I don't follow college ball but I often hear that Tebow was an accurate passer in College. What happened? How does being an NFL QB change that? Just curious...

Tebow was "college accurate". To the point where he had a better overall passer rating than Peyton or Eli Manning, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, or just about any other top NFL QB that you can think of.

I parsed the stats once comparing Tebow and Peyton, and the overall stats weren't even close. Peyton had more yards, but he had many more attempts and completions. In Yards per attempt and yards per completion, Tebow crushed him. He also crushed him in TD % and INT% iirc.

All that said, his mechanics were severely flawed and while he was "college accurate", the general belief was that he'd have major problems in the NFL due to the smaller/tighter passing windows. Didn't help that his delivery motion was elongated and slower than most, which would allow defenders to get a jump on his passes.

(This isn't a complete list of all the problems, more of a general highlight type of thing).

So, Tebow went to work changing his mechanics and it's been a very bumpy road since then. In Denver, at least during the first 3 quarters of games, it looked like Tim was thinking about mechanics while he was trying to throw the ball. Not sure if you've played golf before, but doing this kind of thing usually leads to disaster. When you are in the middle of a play (or swing), you shouldn't be thinking "left foot here, right foot there, ball here, hands there, bring it back, rotate, GO, follow through."

Later in games, generally in the 4th Q, Denver usually found themselves behind and went to a Spread formation offense with Tebow in the gun. He would revert back to his college style and to the amazement of many, he was pretty successful with it. Still not "NFL accurate" and able to hit tight windows on command, but he could get the ball out to receivers for the most part.

In short, at those times, he stopped "thinking" and just started playing.

This brings up what could be an interesting discussion, vis a vis, could Tebow have been successful in the long term had he never changed his mechanics. But I'll pass on that one for now unless others want to get into it.

Given that he has tinkered with his mechanics, the question at this point is whether the latest work that he put in during the offseason in AZ has fixed things. He not only worked on his release, but this time, they spent a lot of time working on his footwork as well.

 

[Big-T]

This brings up what could be an interesting discussion, vis a vis, could Tebow have been successful in the long term had he never changed his mechanics. But I'll pass on that one for now unless others want to get into it.

Just a quick version of it: MAYBE, if he had the best line in the league by some distance and a simple offense.

He looks his best as a passer when he stops thinking and a receiver is open. His biggest problem (to me) that he has between College and the NFL is reading defenses, he just doesn't seem smart enough or capable of making the reads required.

Take the Thomas TD v Pitt as "good Tebow", Thomas beat his man and was open which gave Tebow an easy read and the rest is history.

Take pretty much everything NE did to him in the playoffs as "bad Tebow", he looked lost and confused most of the game.

 

[Demosthenes]

Demos: Just because he plays multiple positions in 2013 doesn't mean he'd never play QB again. It just means he is doing what the team needs for him to do in this upcoming season. As I mentioned in a previous post Edelman played DB all of 2011 many thought that was a permanent change. Last year was back playing WR and seeing a ton of playing time.

Tebow can still see reps at QB in practice, still work to develop his QB skill set in the background.

I don't think he makes the team unless he's doing more than QB in 2013, I don't see us carrying 3 QB's unless one is Tebow and he's doing other things to justify a roster spot. Mallett isn't able to and personally I just can't cut that potential draft value especially with the need to find a replacement for Hernandez now to.

Brady,

Believe it or not, your question is kind of complicated to answer completely in a somewhat short post. I mean, there's just so many variables and ways to look at things.

Do I want him to "convert" to TE or some other position ? That wouldn't be my preference. I'd almost rather he went to the CFL like Flutie, Garcia and others did. Or perhaps the A11 league if it ever gets going. Somewhere he could develop then make it back to the NFL.

As you said though, him playing some TE this year doesn't close the door on him being a QB in the future. Here also though, there's a kind of sliding scale. I'm definitely not opposed to it if being versatile gets him onto the roster as QB3, where he would develop as QB3 during the year, while also practicing at other positions. But if it means spending all his time at TE or RB, just for this year, then I'm not sure. Clock is ticking and that would be another year of possible development lost.

One of the things that sickened me about the whole Jets thing is that he lost a year of development being under Sparano.

 

[situational_awareness]

Tebow was "college accurate". To the point where he had a better overall passer rating than Peyton or Eli Manning, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, or just about any other top NFL QB that you can think of.

I parsed the stats once comparing Tebow and Peyton, and the overall stats weren't even close. Peyton had more yards, but he had many more attempts and completions. In Yards per attempt and yards per completion, Tebow crushed him. He also crushed him in TD % and INT% iirc.

All that said, his mechanics were severely flawed and while he was "college accurate", the general belief was that he'd have major problems in the NFL due to the smaller/tighter passing windows. Didn't help that his delivery motion was elongated and slower than most, which would allow defenders to get a jump on his passes.

(This isn't a complete list of all the problems, more of a general highlight type of thing).

So, Tebow went to work changing his mechanics and it's been a very bumpy road since then. In Denver, at least during the first 3 quarters of games, it looked like Tim was thinking about mechanics while he was trying to throw the ball. Not sure if you've played golf before, but doing this kind of thing usually leads to disaster. When you are in the middle of a play (or swing), you shouldn't be thinking "left foot here, right foot there, ball here, hands there, bring it back, rotate, GO, follow through."

Later in games, generally in the 4th Q, Denver usually found themselves behind and went to a Spread formation offense with Tebow in the gun. He would revert back to his college style and to the amazement of many, he was pretty successful with it. Still not "NFL accurate" and able to hit tight windows on command, but he could get the ball out to receivers for the most part.

In short, at those times, he stopped "thinking" and just started playing.

This brings up what could be an interesting discussion, vis a vis, could Tebow have been successful in the long term had he never changed his mechanics. But I'll pass on that one for now unless others want to get into it.

Given that he has tinkered with his mechanics, the question at this point is whether the latest work that he put in during the offseason in AZ has fixed things. He not only worked on his release, but this time, they spent a lot of time working on his footwork as well.

Couple of points, Demo...

Peyton had more yards in college, and that was due to more attempts as you say, but also because Peyton was a 4 year starter. Tebow was behind Leak during his freshman year. I think a lot of people are surprised when they find out just how prolific of a passer he was. Very accurate.

Other point, I think he did show NFL QB ability to hit tight windows on many occasions in NFL games. The problem is that those passes are mixed in with the other passes that were not good. People tend to remember the bad and not the good.

Otherwise, I agree with everything you said.

 

[Christiancat]

Tebow was "college accurate". To the point where he had a better overall passer rating than Peyton or Eli Manning, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, or just about any other top NFL QB that you can think of.

I parsed the stats once comparing Tebow and Peyton, and the overall stats weren't even close. Peyton had more yards, but he had many more attempts and completions. In Yards per attempt and yards per completion, Tebow crushed him. He also crushed him in TD % and INT% iirc.

All that said, his mechanics were severely flawed and while he was "college accurate", the general belief was that he'd have major problems in the NFL due to the smaller/tighter passing windows. Didn't help that his delivery motion was elongated and slower than most, which would allow defenders to get a jump on his passes.

(This isn't a complete list of all the problems, more of a general highlight type of thing).

So, Tebow went to work changing his mechanics and it's been a very bumpy road since then. In Denver, at least during the first 3 quarters of games, it looked like Tim was thinking about mechanics while he was trying to throw the ball. Not sure if you've played golf before, but doing this kind of thing usually leads to disaster. When you are in the middle of a play (or swing), you shouldn't be thinking "left foot here, right foot there, ball here, hands there, bring it back, rotate, GO, follow through."

Later in games, generally in the 4th Q, Denver usually found themselves behind and went to a Spread formation offense with Tebow in the gun. He would revert back to his college style and to the amazement of many, he was pretty successful with it. Still not "NFL accurate" and able to hit tight windows on command, but he could get the ball out to receivers for the most part.

In short, at those times, he stopped "thinking" and just started playing.

This brings up what could be an interesting discussion, vis a vis, could Tebow have been successful in the long term had he never changed his mechanics. But I'll pass on that one for now unless others want to get into it.

Given that he has tinkered with his mechanics, the question at this point is whether the latest work that he put in during the offseason in AZ has fixed things. He not only worked on his release, but this time, they spent a lot of time working on his footwork as well.

Demos, what are your thoughts on this article?

Tim Tebow's faulty mechanics have been repaired, says quarterbacks coach Steve Clarkson