Tavon Wilson signs 4 year deal: $4.2 mil, $1.5 mil signing bonus

[Deus Irae]

Expectations? Not drafting Ron Brace, Darius Butler, Jermaine Cunningham, Terrence Wheatley, Shawn Crable, Wilhite in high rounds(pray McCourty improves). And hope to draft players like Mayo, Spikes, Chung...

To be fair, while the Patriots actual drafting did suffer from 2006-2008/2009, you seem to be expecting a 100% success rate or something close to that, regardless of round. That's not reasonable.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree that yards is a ridiculous stat to measure the defense. But the offense does interfere with both points allowed and yards allowed. I think the offense helps the defense in points allowed because they make the other team desesperate. I don't know how that good of a defense would allow career games to every QB they face.

The fact is that THIS offense statistically HURT the defense because it has had it playing prevent to protect leads. That only hurts a defense when it comes to silly hypothetical arguments that put more value on statistics than on how the game was played.
What QBs put up 'career games' meaningfully? I could care less that a poor QB takes what we give him when we are ahead 4 TDs so that the drive takes enough time off the clock that they couldn't win any way.
It kind of seems like you are embarrassed by how a player plays against us even when we win the game. I could care less, winning or losing is what matters.

Again, you can keep bringing up all the stats you want. I still think the D sucked. But I am hopeful for 2013.

Funny you keep saying that, but I am not using stats. I am using the results that matter.
As soon as points scored and allowed are not the only thing that determines the outcome of a game, I will turn my focus to other things, such as we lose if the other QB passes for a lot of yards.
By the way, it cannot be a career day if you lose, because as you say stats are for losers.

 

[The Gr8est]

It's easy to deride the Chargers 2010 statistics when you ignore the ST stats (i.e. 4 returns for TDs, 5 blocked punts) from that team.

It's not "so much for statistics". It's "statistics can't tell the whole story, especially when you use them selectively". There's a big difference.

True, and I don't think we're really in disagreement; there is a reason the Chargers missed the playoffs in 2010.

I'm just putting this out here to try and add some perspective to the idea that the Pats had a historically bad defense last year, and I don't think it was nearly as bad as many people portrayed.

The defense certainly played well enough in the Superbowl last year, to win, and even getting to the Superbowl took a strong defensive effort against Baltimore, because it sure wasn't Brady and the offense leading the way.

 

[BradyMossWelker]

To be fair, while the Patriots actual drafting did suffer from 2006-2008/2009, you seem to be expecting a 100% success rate or something close to that, regardless of round. That's not reasonable.

No I'm not. I said BB was average at drafting, while other here were saying he was great. This was just an example of how BB hasn't been sucessful in trying to reconstruct a good defense. BB misses, like anybody else, and recently, I believe he has missed more than he should.

 

[BradyMossWelker]

What QBs put up 'career games' meaningfully?

Flacco, championship game. 'Nough said.

 

[Ring 6]

No I'm not. I said BB was average at drafting, while other here were saying he was great.

Who said he was great?

This was just an example of how BB hasn't been sucessful in trying to reconstruct a good defense. BB misses, like anybody else, and recently, I believe he has missed more than he should.

But facing reality this means you expect him to hit significantly more than anyone else does.

 

[RayClay]

That wasn't even directed to that particular comment. The first post in the discussion he lol'ed at something I said. To me, that's disrespectful, something I try not to be.

And if you think the defense is above average, then you must think the Patriots are perfect.

I'm not mean (usually). Here is what I lol'ed and used the word preposterous about and i stand by it.

That's the worst argument someone can make.
Just because we are a winning team, it doesn't mean we are any good at drafting.

How the players we draft perform.

What performance that doesn't contribute to winning are you talking about? Individual stats?

You said basing overall draft success on winning is the worst argument. That argument is beyond unreasonable, is that respectful enough?

 

[Deus Irae]

True, and I don't think we're really in disagreement; there is a reason the Chargers missed the playoffs in 2010.

I'm just putting this out here to try and add some perspective to the idea that the Pats had a historically bad defense last year, and I don't think it was nearly as bad as many people portrayed.

The defense certainly played well enough in the Superbowl last year, to win.

That defense last year was terrible. Yes, it was historically terrible, in the sense of where its passing and yardage stats ranked compared to all the other defenses in the history of the league. Why try putting lipstick on the pig? Belichick's tried to address the issue, by focusing mostly on that side of the ball in both free agency and the draft.

Given all of BB's additions to the defense, and the couple of significant changes on offense (Lloyd, McDaniels, Fells for depth), this team seems poised for a monster year as long as a couple of the top rookies can become factors by the end of the season. Let's enjoy looking forward to that, rather than focusing on trying to pretend last year's defense was better than it was.

 

[Ring 6]

Flacco, championship game. 'Nough said.

Do you really think that Joe Flacco would consider losing that game his best game of his career? Really?
Are you serioulsy going to tell me that scoring 20 points when your defense forces 3 turnovers is a great day?
That 61% completion when 30 of your 36 passes are considered 'short' and throwing an Int is a career day?
Baltimore Ravens at New England Patriots - January 22nd, 2012 - Pro-Football-Reference.com

"Nuff said? Sure because you have nothing else to add that could support that opinion.

I am very glad to hear that the best reason you have for trashing our defense is those awfiul stats we allow while winning.

 

[BradyMossWelker]

The defense is in transition. Our team is well above average. While we are in the process of replacing 11 starters on our defense, we have been to the SB twice, playoffs yearly, except one year without our QB when we went 11-5. Other teams fans look at threads like this in disbelief.

You make it seem like we go to the take out window and order 11 defensive players to go. It's a bit more complicated. also, we had a short camp last year and are transitioning our defense because of players, or the league or both.

If it was so easy to build a defense, even with low picks every year, wouldn't everyone do it?

We should have been "rebuilding" the defense before it was necessary. That way we wouldn't have to go "order 11 defensive players". The 2008 defense was totally different than the 2009 one. Thats where I think BB missed. And even after that period he hasn't drafted enough impact players to fix that problem.

 

[BradyMossWelker]

Do you really think that Joe Flacco would consider losing that game his best game of his career? Really?
Are you serioulsy going to tell me that scoring 20 points when your defense forces 3 turnovers is a great day?
That 61% completion when 30 of your 36 passes are considered 'short' and throwing an Int is a career day?
Baltimore Ravens at New England Patriots - January 22nd, 2012 - Pro-Football-Reference.com

"Nuff said? Sure because you have nothing else to add that could support that opinion.

I am very glad to hear that the best reason you have for trashing our defense is those awfiul stats we allow while winning.

He was pretty happy about that game actually. He said he finally proved the doubters wrong. Nough said because it was in the championship game.

 

[RayClay]

I'll also offer that there is no magic "hit" draft pick. every team plays a different type of defense even within the broad categories. Look at the teams that are drafting top 10 every year. When drafting defense, they should be able to amass awesome defenses based on massive athletic linemen, great pass rushers, outstanding LBs, shutdown corners etc.

Yet they don't, they generally stay in the same mediocre or worse state.

When you pick 20-32 you sure don't have those can't miss guys, you are trying to project whether they can change their style from college, hide their lack of athleticism by filling a role, etc. It's quite possible it isn't easy fielding a playoff team almost every year, no matter what.

 

[BradyMossWelker]

I'm not mean (usually). Here is what I lol'ed and used the word preposterous about and i stand by it.





What performance that doesn't contribute to winning are you talking about? Individual stats?

You said basing overall draft success on winning is the worst argument. That argument is beyond unreasonable, is that respectful enough?

The worst argument thing is just a way of saying things. And again, if we didn't pick any player in this draft, we would still be 12-4 or better. Winning doesn't reflect the sucess of a single draft.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'll also offer that there is no magic "hit" draft pick. every team plays a different type of defense even within the broad categories. Look at the teams that are drafting top 10 every year. When drafting defense, they should be able to amass awesome defenses based on massive athletic linemen, great pass rushers, outstanding LBs, shutdown corners etc.

Yet they don't, they generally stay in the same mediocre or worse state.

When you pick 20-32 you sure don't have those can't miss guys, you are trying to project whether they can change their style from college, hide their lack of athleticism by filling a role, etc. It's quite possible it isn't easy fielding a playoff team almost every year, no matter what.

Here's a pretty good, albeit not quite 100%, method of predicting playoffs for teams in today's NFL:

If you've got a QB who's among the 4 best in the conference, you're probably going to the playoffs.

 

[BradyMossWelker]

Here's a pretty good, albeit not quite 100%, method of predicting playoffs for teams in today's NFL:

If you've got a QB who's among the 4 best in the conference, you're probably going to the playoffs.

That method fails with the Chargers. Everything fails with the Chargers-

 

[Deus Irae]

That method fails with the Chargers. Everything fails with the Chargers-

The Chargers have made the playoffs in 5 of the last 8 seasons, and one of those 3 seasons where they missed was Brees' last with the Chargers, back when he was not a top 4 QB in the conference (Brady/Manning/Roethlisberger/Palmer, arguably Green and Plummer at that time, as well). Another was 2010, where the Chargers special teams were absolutely costing that team wins. Looking that the top 4 QBs in a conference is not 100%, which I acknowledged, but it's a pretty good method to start with, even with the Chargers.

 

[BradyMossWelker]

The Chargers have made the playoffs in 5 of the last 8 seasons, and one of those 3 seasons where they missed was Brees' last with the Chargers, back when he was not a top 4 QB in the conference (Brady/Manning/Roethlisberger/Palmer, arguably Green and Plummer at that time, as well). Another was 2010, where the Chargers special teams were absolutely costing that team wins. Looking that the top 4 QBs in a conference is not 100%, which I acknowledged, but it's a pretty good method to start with.

But those years that they made the playoffs were not because of Rivers, it was because of Tomlinson. He was far from the top 4. Since Rivers is a top 4 QB, they have to the playoffs once.

 

[RayClay]

The worst argument thing is just a way of saying things. And again, if we didn't pick any player in this draft, we would still be 12-4 or better. Winning doesn't reflect the sucess of a single draft.

No one said this, it's another absolute you are making up to argue against.

 

[RayClay]

Here's a pretty good, albeit not quite 100%, method of predicting playoffs for teams in today's NFL:

If you've got a QB who's among the 4 best in the conference, you're probably going to the playoffs.

Of course, if you have an offense and defense that takes the pressure off your qb, you're more likely to get such statistics. Statistics like this tend to "group".

Obviously, if you have a crappy qb, you're likely to fail for many reasons. If you score a lot of points, it's better than less points, all being equal. Rothlisburger hasn't looked great in past super bowls, but he has advantages and the team is always solid.

To me, if you have a system and you acquire players and maintain discipline to promote your system you'll likely be consistently in the hunt.

More and more over the years I've come to the conclusion that being in the big games consistently is the only thing you can do. The ball takes funny bounces and betting too much on any one year leaves you open to injury, chemistry problem or just bad luck and getting back to the top is a lot harder, it's proved over and over despite the tremendous draft advantage perennial losers have.

I'll pick the organization over the team with thast #1 QB pick every time. Obviously, we know who developed into great QBs, but would some busts have flourished in great organizations? No way of knowing.

 

[Deus Irae]

But those years that they made the playoffs were not because of Rivers, it was because of Tomlinson. He was far from the top 4. Since Rivers is a top 4 QB, they have to the playoffs once.

Rivers was, clearly, a top 4 AFC QB in 2008 and 2009, when the Chargers were making the playoffs, but this is taking this thread too far afield, so I won't continue with this line of discussion.