Strongest defensive unit: DL, LB, Secondary

[ALP]

so i realized that last year i believe our strongest unit on the defense was the LB's, with the secondary having some real problems while going through the adjustment of taking in Talib, realizing dennard's potential, finding the 2nd safety, and moving Devin to safety

the DL had a lot of injuries, and wasn't a very productive unit

the LB's held that D together

now im looking at this year so far, and it seems as if the secondary is a strength, and so is the DL, (with our two starting DE's playing very well, and with kelly as an upgrade)...of course this is pending the wilfork injury info...

so i would say that our LB's are now the weakest unit of the defense, and i just dont understand why with all that we've invested in them

spikes is a run only player w/ serious coverage probs, but donta and mayo arent all that much better at coverage, and so far this season have looked slow

two things that lb's are responsible for in a game, rb's in the flat and the TE's have been major probs this year, so how do we fix it?

fletcher doesn't play, yet he is supposed to be our best coverage LB...he didnt cover Gonzalez at all this last game...collins saw time doing that instead, and really the first time all season he's seen extended time (and he didnt do all that well)

 

[VrabelJr]

Our LBs are good but they have a ton of overlapping skills that they excel at. The only way this unit makes a big jump is if Mayo or Hightower become really good in coverage all of a sudden. I won't chide them too much for getting burned by Gonzalez but I do want to see them do better against RBs.

Our DL is obviously beat up but our DEs are awesome. We have a strong three player rotation there in Jones, Ninkovich, and Buchanan.

As long as our Secondary is healthy. I think it's the best entire unit.

 

[Fencer]

Are the LBs bad in coverage or are short passes just tough to defend?

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Our LBs are good but they have a ton of overlapping skills that they excel at. The only way this unit makes a big jump is if Mayo or Hightower become really good in coverage all of a sudden. I won't chide them too much for getting burned by Gonzalez but I do want to see them do better against RBs.

Our DL is obviously beat up but our DEs are awesome. We have a strong three player rotation there in Jones, Ninkovich, and Buchanan.

As long as our Secondary is healthy. I think it's the best entire unit.

Salient point. And while it is not impossible for Mayo to make leaps and bounds in coverage ability, I wouldn't bet the mortgage payment on it. I think we have to hang our hat on Hightower as well as the newby, Collins, finding his NFL legs.

To the OP's point, I agree. You can see the difference. It's not as if passes are impossible against this unit, however, you see competitive coverage at a rate that significantly surpasses the last few years. And as long as the coverage is competitive, opposition QBs are going to falter at a rate that will provide defense success in terms of points allowed.

Right now, with Vince gone, this D has a ? at run stopping. I hope Vince's replacements can get us back to worrying about the lesser problem, but still a problem, of LB pass coverage. Side note: LOVED seeing the Gonzalez coverage method on the last ATL drive. Two guys assigned to assault him!

 

[Kdo5]

Our LBs are good but they have a ton of overlapping skills that they excel at. The only way this unit makes a big jump is if Mayo or Hightower become really good in coverage all of a sudden. I won't chide them too much for getting burned by Gonzalez but I do want to see them do better against RBs.

Our DL is obviously beat up but our DEs are awesome. We have a strong three player rotation there in Jones, Ninkovich, and Buchanan.

As long as our Secondary is healthy. I think it's the best entire unit.

That's the key for the secondary. I fear the loss of Talib will leave us with that painful looking secondary of years past.

 

[Ozymandias]

The secondary has been the most impressive unit so far this season. For instance, a lot of the sacks caused this season have been because of the coverage downfield rather than immediate pressure. Talib has been inside receiver's jerseys with how tight his coverage has been so far this season.

It's refreshing to know that you can hang your hat on those guys be able to cover long enough, even if the pressure isn't immediate. In today's NFL with passing rules, you gotta be able to cover no matter what. I like the improvements that the secondary has made so far.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Are the LBs bad in coverage or are short passes just tough to defend?

A fair question. Receivers that go out into routes that need LB coverage are frequently a mismatch for the LB. Yet the eyeball test says this type of Patriot coverage is uncompetitive even beyond this reality.
I suspect the theory is, for most opponents, that the middle-underneath passes won't gouge/kill us so we can give up many of them and still stifle a sufficient amount of drives. But this plan still relies on some level of incompletions in this area. So if that coverage is too uncompetitive too frequently allowing too high a rate of completion in that area, it means too many drives will be successful (consider that the difference between a good D and a not good D may be only two drives).
It's that or, well, or not .

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

That's the key for the secondary. I fear the loss of Talib will leave us with that painful looking secondary of years past.

Buck up man! This is this, this ain't that. We are in 2013 not 201X. Who our secondary personnel in 2014-??? will be is not good or bad because it doesn't exist yet. Talib may be resigned (supposedly BB wanted him long term this year). Maybe the market stays depressed enough that Talib and BB actually can come to an agreement (maybe Talib likes it here enough to want that to happen). Or maybe the dreaded tag is brought out (unlikely??). Or maybe he does leave and someone else takes his place or someone emerges. Maybe BB uses his highest pick on a CB and the guy actually and really pans out as a top CB (come on it ain't impossible!). Maybe Dennard and Ryan and Arrignton playing with Talib will have some of his confidence rub off and raise their game. The possibilities are significant for something that is a full season away.

If you're going to worry at least worry about this season. Vince is gone leaving a gaping hole right in the middle of the line with no hope of replacing that ability. Our 3 best receiving weapons, arguably, remain out and who knows maybe can;t ever come back. The middle-underneath coverage looks suspect. Denver looks to be unstoppable, just can't possibly! be slowed down, which ultimately makes all the games the Patriots are playing an exercise in futility, thy can't win the SB this year. Our #1 RB still has one foot in the doghouse because of fumble-itis.
Now isn't that plenty of immediate worries to make 2014 worries seem a distant non issue???

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

The secondary has been the most impressive unit so far this season. For instance, a lot of the sacks caused this season have been because of the coverage downfield rather than immediate pressure. Talib has been inside receiver's jerseys with how tight his coverage has been so far this season.

It's refreshing to know that you can hang your hat on those guys be able to cover long enough, even if the pressure isn't immediate. In today's NFL with passing rules, you gotta be able to cover no matter what. I like the improvements that the secondary has made so far.

No, no, no, it's the opposing QB who is simply not hitting the open receivers. Haven't you been watching the games???

 

[supafly]

Buck up man! This is this, this ain't that. We are in 2013 not 201X. Who our secondary personnel in 2014-??? will be is not good or bad because it doesn't exist yet. Talib may be resigned (supposedly BB wanted him long term this year). Maybe the market stays depressed enough that Talib and BB actually can come to an agreement (maybe Talib likes it here enough to want that to happen). Or maybe the dreaded tag is brought out (unlikely??). Or maybe he does leave and someone else takes his place or someone emerges. Maybe BB uses his highest pick on a CB and the guy actually and really pans out as a top CB (come on it ain't impossible!). Maybe Dennard and Ryan and Arrignton playing with Talib will have some of his confidence rub off and raise their game. The possibilities are significant for something that is a full season away.

If you're going to worry at least worry about this season. Vince is gone leaving a gaping hole right in the middle of the line with no hope of replacing that ability. Our 3 best receiving weapons, arguably, remain out and who knows maybe can;t ever come back. The middle-underneath coverage looks suspect. Denver looks to be unstoppable, just can't possibly! be slowed down, which ultimately makes all the games the Patriots are playing an exercise in futility, thy can't win the SB this year. Our #1 RB still has one foot in the doghouse because of fumble-itis.
Now isn't that plenty of immediate worries to make 2014 worries seem a distant non issue???

I wasn't as optimistic initially either, but I think that Belichick steps outside of his comfort zone and increases his offer made previously. It seems that he has been pretty impressed with Talib, and that alone holds a lot of water in these kinds of negotiations.

Normally I would say that he won't overpay too much, but this case may be a rare occasion when it can be justified. It's happened before, it can happen again.

Lots of people are bringing up the possibility of the tag if they don't come to an agreement, but I think the Pats will be doing everything in their power to try to avoid a 10+ million dollar cap hit. That may coincide with the thinking that they increase their offer and use some of the leftover cap money that is still remaining, although they'll have to make up for it in other areas (possible restructuring/extension for Connelly, Wilfork, Gregory etc) because they will most likely want to carry over as much as possible to next season again.

Bottom line: I feel much more confident that they'll be doing everything in their power to try and reach an agreement with Talib, and I wasn't so sure prior to this past month. It seems that his physical nature allows this defense to flow much more smoothly, and I'm not as sure that can be replicated by another player at CB as I was entering the season.

 

[supafly]

Our LBs are good but they have a ton of overlapping skills that they excel at. The only way this unit makes a big jump is if Mayo or Hightower become really good in coverage all of a sudden.

There definitely seems to be a noticeable improvement with Spikes being subbed out in the 4-2-5 subpackage.

The development of Collins, along with possibly bringing in another coverage LB for next season will go a long way towards taking major steps.

In the meantime, let's hope that Collins can show some improvement this year but I'm not going to count on it. Mayo and Hightower seem to stand out in a more positive fashion just by subtracting Spikes alone, unless maybe I am overstating the improvement. There is obviously still a long way to go, but it does look better to me for sure.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

I wasn't as optimistic initially either, but I think that Belichick steps outside of his comfort zone and increases his offer made previously. It seems that he has been pretty impressed with Talib, and that alone holds a lot of water in these kinds of negotiations.

Normally I would say that he won't overpay too much, but this case may be a rare occasion when it can be justified. It's happened before, it can happen again.

Lots of people are bringing up the possibility of the tag if they don't come to an agreement, but I think the Pats will be doing everything in their power to try to avoid a 10+ million dollar cap hit. That may coincide with the thinking that they increase their offer and use some of the leftover cap money that is still remaining, although they'll have to make up for it in other areas (possible restructuring/extension for Connelly, Wilfork, Gregory etc) because they will most likely want to carry over as much as possible to next season again.

Bottom line: I feel much more confident that they'll be doing everything in their power to try and reach an agreement with Talib, and I wasn't so sure prior to this past month. It seems that his physical nature allows this defense to flow much more smoothly, and I'm not as sure that can be replicated by another player at CB as I was entering the season.

Yea, seeing him take on a top WR and, overall, winning that battle was a nice thing to see. It hasn't been seen in these parts for a while. And no doubt, so far, it's given flexibility in coverage that is having a positive effect.

I'm not sure I am as confident as you BB/they will do everything in their power though. BB has been almost inhumanly consistent in his approach that positional area X gets Y amount of $$$. It doesn't seem as if he deviates from that much and will let the player walk for a relatively small amount of money when compared to the overall contract offer. But I agree BB will definitely make a pitch (as it stands right now).

So will the market be a buyer's one again or be a seller's? And if it is a buyer's, which it may be, will Talib work within that $$$ framework or be adamant on getting $$$ that is based on previous years market pricing? And can you imagine at all BB working outside the current market pricing??

Also is the big picture question of investing a lot of cap in one player. I seem to recall, prior to today's drunken exuberance of Talib's success so far in 2013, he was a good but not elite CB who had a durability concern and an off field/lockerroom concern. Are these all but evaporated so that investing a sizable chunk of cap -- money that will definitely mean someone(s) will have to be allowed to walk -- is of no concern???

On a side note, even if he goes after this year, the value of Talib for the time he was here appears to be a steal considering what BB gave Tampa and the cap space he will have taken.

 

[ALP]

There definitely seems to be a noticeable improvement with Spikes being subbed out in the 4-2-5 subpackage.

The development of Collins, along with possibly bringing in another coverage LB for next season will go a long way towards taking major steps.

In the meantime, let's hope that Collins can show some improvement this year but I'm not going to count on it. Mayo and Hightower seem to stand out in a more positive fashion just by subtracting Spikes alone, unless maybe I am overstating the improvement. There is obviously still a long way to go, but it does look better to me for sure.

Yea, but why is fletcher on the roster for if not this role? He isn't even being given a chance to succeed in it

 

[Oswlek]

Yea, but why is fletcher on the roster for if not this role? He isn't even being given a chance to succeed in it

I'm a Fletch fan and thought that he would see the field more, but the team appears to feel that Collins will prove to be the best option and are working to get him up to speed.

If you think about Fletch as a modern day Chatham, and a replacement for Kouts and Rivera, his roster spot makes a lot more sense.

 

[Oswlek]

I agree that the secondary is probably the best performing unit right now, but I don't know why you'd be concerned about the LBs. They look better than last year and the fact that the secondary has leapfrogged them is a good thing. :confused2:

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Anyone else gets hurt on the DL...we are in big trouble. We are in trouble as it is against the run now with no wilfork...but next man up

 

[mgteich]

Let's have this discussion after the NO game.

As as of now, our DL is clearly our weakest unit with Wifork out.

As of now, our secondary has clearly performed well.

I think the so-called poor performance of the linebackers is a creation of the message boards. They are doing fine. The team could have had chosen a different defense against Atlanta, given more support over the middle. In that case, we would be talking about trading for a corner or a safety. There is no way that the defense of the last play could have been maintained all game (the defense that did indeed bottle up the middle.

If you didn't like the performance of the linebackers, I suggest that the fault is Patricia and the defensive schemes.

IMHO, it is only message boards that do not see the improvement in Hightower.