Special teams excellence

[NEPettyOfficer72]

Interesting stat about KR Leon Washington. The guy was only 2nd last year in Kick Off return average and like mentioned before, is ONLY 30 years old. Just imagine the field position he could give us. Not to mention Julian Edelman is 4th all-time in punt return yard average per return. Perhaps with Leon Washington, one of the elite and all-time greats at kick off and punt returns could spell for more playing time as a primary duty at wide receiver for Julian Edelman. At least we know we will be covered by very good field position and chance for kick-off or punt return touchdowns this year. :rocker:

 

[jmt57]

While I consider Leon Washington to be a much better kick returner than Danny Woodhead, I would like to see better performance from the rest of the kick return unit. Ever since the NFL changed the rules regarding the wedge the Pats' don't seem to do a very good job of blocking on returns, relative to other teams.

The other thing I noticed on returns was that it seemed that the Pats returned too many kicks that they should have just taken a knee on and accepted as a touchback. If you don't have superior blocking or an elite return man, just put the ball on the twenty. Washington likely brings superior decision making in deciding whether or not to run the ball out of the end zone.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Leon Washington is a league leader is KO returns. Julius Edelman is a the Pats all time leader in Punt Returns.

The two positions are completely seperate and use different skill sets entirely. Very seldom is a good player in one able to excell in the other, and the Pats returners are no exception.

I find it incomprehensible that critics question Edelmen making the squad, knowing Belichick's history with ST players.

 

[primetime]

I find it incomprehensible that critics question Edelmen making the squad, knowing Belichick's history with ST players.

That and the fact that he played nearly every offensive snap coming out of training camp last season. He took Welker's reps at the slot and when Welker was in the game he'd play the outside. Edelman's problem is durability, but he's got a shot at being a very productive wide receiver on top of being a historically good punt returner.

Washington was the Jets' scariest player when he was with them, too.

 

[jmt57]

Leon Washington is a league leader is KO returns. Julius Edelman is a the Pats all time leader in Punt Returns.

The two positions are completely seperate and use different skill sets entirely. Very seldom is a good player in one able to excell in the other, and the Pats returners are no exception.

I find it incomprehensible that critics question Edelmen making the squad, knowing Belichick's history with ST players.

When I think of Belichick's history with ST players, I think of it more as the guys who are in on coverage first, and blocking on returns second - as opposed to the guys who are doing the kicking, punting and returning.

In other words more about guys like Larry Izzo and Mosi Tatupu in the past, or Matthew Slater today.

If the guy returning punts and kickoffs was of equal importance to the core special teamers then Ellis Hobbs and Bethel Johnson would not have been moved as abruptly as they were.

 

[Brady6]

I find it incomprehensible that critics question Edelmen making the squad, knowing Belichick's history with ST players.

I have to respectfully disagree; its not incomprehensible to question him making the squad. His injury history makes it possible. If not for that he'd be a lock but that has to be a concern and likely the reason he didn't garner much interest on the free agent market this past offseason.

That said I'm actually a big fan of Edelman, he is awesome in open space and could be as many media outlets have written be primed for a breakout season.

 

[supafly]

I have to respectfully disagree; its not incomprehensible to question him making the squad. His injury history makes it possible. If not for that he'd be a lock but that has to be a concern and likely the reason he didn't garner much interest on the free agent market this past offseason.

That said I'm actually a big fan of Edelman, he is awesome in open space and could be as many media outlets have written be primed for a breakout season.

My thoughts exactly. Before AH murdered someone, I had Edelman's chances at around 70% of making the squad. I believe an argument could be made that his chances may have increased due to losing another talented offensive player, even though it's at a different position, so I'd currently raise those to about 75-80% (just my humble opinion).

However, his injury concern is a valid point, along with his inability to fully produce to his potential as an receiver in this offense outside of the slot. I personally see no reason to expect him not to make the squad, especially since the competition at receiver currently is...challenged; but if Belichick saw some decent upside at another actual receiver and/or Edelman's injury is still a concern, then I could understand the thinking.

In the meantime it makes sense to keep him around for another year at a cheap salary just for special teams purposes alone, along with the ability to back up Amendola in the slot position. He definitely has shown flashes of ability and is a very shifty player in space with the ball in his hands.

 

[DarrylS]

My thoughts exactly. Before AH murdered someone, I had Edelman's chances at around 70% of making the squad. I believe an argument could be made that his chances may have increased due to losing another talented offensive player, even though it's at a different position, so I'd currently raise those to about 75-80% (just my humble opinion).

However, his injury concern is a valid point, along with his inability to fully produce to his potential as an receiver in this offense outside of the slot. I personally see no reason to expect him not to make the squad, especially since the competition at receiver currently is...challenged; but if Belichick saw some decent upside at another actual receiver and/or Edelman's injury is still a concern, then I could understand the thinking.

In the meantime it makes sense to keep him around for another year at a cheap salary just for special teams purposes alone, along with the ability to back up Amendola in the slot position. He definitely has shown flashes of ability and is a very shifty player in space with the ball in his hands.

Anecdotally when I go to Pats Practice, Edelman always sticks out because of his quickness and what looks like him being all over the place...

If he remains injury free, could be a factor...

 

[tonyto3690]

There is absolutely zero chance Edelman does NOT make the squad. I would be more surprised if he got cut than guys like Connolly and Gregory. Guys who started for us last season. On top of that, Edelman is on a very team friendly contract and has a good rapport with Brady.

Edelman is an elite #2 WR and an elite PR. He's also an emergency QB and emergency DB who can also run out of the backfield as a faux-RB. He is also a weapon in the screen game and those reverse play actions that McDaniels loves to run.

There is absolutely zero chance he gets cut barring injury.


EDIT:
People forget how good Edelman was last year before he got injured. He was our best downfield threat and was getting consistent separation. He was far better than Lloyd and was a better fit with Gronk/Hernandez than Welker was (and Amendola will be).

 

[Deus Irae]

There is absolutely zero chance Edelman does NOT make the squad. I would be more surprised if he got cut than guys like Connolly and Gregory. Guys who started for us last season. On top of that, Edelman is on a very team friendly contract and has a good rapport with Brady.

Edelman is an elite #2 WR and an elite PR. He's also an emergency QB and emergency DB who can also run out of the backfield as a faux-RB. He is also a weapon in the screen game and those reverse play actions that McDaniels loves to run.

There is absolutely zero chance he gets cut barring injury.


EDIT:
People forget how good Edelman was last year before he got injured. He was our best downfield threat and was getting consistent separation. He was far better than Lloyd and was a better fit with Gronk/Hernandez than Welker was (and Amendola will be).

1.) Edelman, while a favorite to make the team, imo, is not a lock, and his contract reflects that.

2.) You are significantly overrating what Edelman did last season.

 

[mgteich]

I think that this thread might be called "Excellence In the Return Game". BTW, no one has mentioned the blocking for those returners (excellent in the case of the patriots).

And we seem to under-rate the ST coverage teams, as important as the return game.

Year after yar, we underestimate the value of guys like Slater and Cole.

 

[Brady6]

Edelman is an elite #2 WR and an elite PR. He's also an emergency QB and emergency DB who can also run out of the backfield as a faux-RB. He is also a weapon in the screen game and those reverse play actions that McDaniels loves to run.

Calling him a #2 WR is an overstatement, and referring to him as an elite one is bordering on insanity. Edelman averaged 2.3 receptions and 26 yards per game. I know he left a few of the 9 games he played in with injuries but even so his stats are not by any stretch of the imagination indicative of elite.

I think he is a solid depth player who has a very good chance of making the roster.

For the record though I'd be ecstatic if you end up being correct and he has a breakout season, I just can't at this time agree with your suggestion that he is elite at any aspect of the game.

 

[Brady6]

I think that this thread might be called "Excellence In the Return Game". BTW, no one has mentioned the blocking for those returners (excellent in the case of the patriots).

And we seem to under-rate the ST coverage teams, as important as the return game.

Year after yar, we underestimate the value of guys like Slater and Cole.

MG what did you think of our special teams unit overall last season? I admittedly do not have enough knowledge of special teams schemes, etc. to offer much of an opinion. Based on this article we were a middle of the pack team, I do however know stats can be misleading.

http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/...d-patriots&id=4739354&city=boston&src=desktop

 

[mgteich]

This is the definition of having a binky, a player that someone values n=much more than almost anyone else (who isn't an agent or relative).

If Edelman truly were an elite #2 receiver, the patriots would have locked him up early for serious money, rather than signing him late to a no-guarantee contract.

Edelman is an elite #2 WR

 

[mgteich]

I think that we have a top 10 coverage team.

Our return team last year was not very good. After all, Edelman was injured and we experimented with kick returners, not wanting to risk McCourty.

So, yes, overall, we were a middle of the pack team in 2012.

With Edelman and Washington, we have a top 5 return game, and a top 5 overall Special Teams.

MG what did you think of our special teams unit overall last season? I admittedly do not have enough knowledge of special teams schemes, etc. to offer much of an opinion. Based on this article we were a middle of the pack team, I do however know stats can be misleading.

NFL Pats' special teams finish 13th - ESPN

 

[jmt57]

MG what did you think of our special teams unit overall last season? I admittedly do not have enough knowledge of special teams schemes, etc. to offer much of an opinion. Based on this article we were a middle of the pack team, I do however know stats can be misleading.

NFL Pats' special teams finish 13th - ESPN

I can't speak for mgteich, but I thought that the Pats special teams were not as productive as they had been in years past.

While some of the stats may be a bit skewed because they seldom punted from deep in their own end (i.e., weren't looking to boom it as far as possible and instead were looking to avoid a touchback), you can't just totally disregard the numbers.

Net Yards per Punt Attempt: Pats ranked 23rd, 38.4 yards per punt
Gross Yards per Successful Punt: Pats ranked 27th, 43.3 yards
Net Yards per Successful Punt: Pats ranked 24th, 38.9 yards

Opponent Net Yards per Punt Attempt: Pats ranked 24th, 40.6 yards
Opponent Gross Yards per Successful Punt: Pats ranked 32nd, 48.9 yards
Opponent Net Yards per Successful Punt: Pats ranked 22nd, 40.6 yards

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I can't speak for mgteich, but I thought that the Pats special teams were not as productive as they had been in years past.

While some of the stats may be a bit skewed because they seldom punted from deep in their own end (i.e., weren't looking to boom it as far as possible and instead were looking to avoid a touchback), you can't just totally disregard the numbers.

Absolute punt yardage is without question one of the most useless yardsticks in all of sports.

There's a big difference between punting 40 yards when the ball started on your own 25 and punting 40 yards when the ball started on your opponent's 45. The former is 35 yards away from a touchback, the latter 5 yards.

There really needs to be some measure of punting that takes such things into account.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

For comparison, Football Outsiders ranked the Pats 4th overall on STs, with the best performance in the league overall on KO coverage.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2012 SPECIAL TEAMS RATINGS

And, BTW, they note that New England consistently has one of the biggest ST disadvantages in the entire NFL based on weather.

 

[NEPettyOfficer72]

My point is Leon Washington and Julian Edelman give us very good field position for an already elite Offense. :rocker:

 

[Brady6]

While I consider Leon Washington to be a much better kick returner than Danny Woodhead, I would like to see better performance from the rest of the kick return unit. Ever since the NFL changed the rules regarding the wedge the Pats' don't seem to do a very good job of blocking on returns, relative to other teams.

The other thing I noticed on returns was that it seemed that the Pats returned too many kicks that they should have just taken a knee on and accepted as a touchback. If you don't have superior blocking or an elite return man, just put the ball on the twenty. Washington likely brings superior decision making in deciding whether or not to run the ball out of the end zone.

Would I be in the minority if I didn't see Washington as a roster lock?