Sony Michel recovering from foot surgery

[Wozzy]

Yes I said Sony played well in the 2018 postseason but you said he "led the entire 2018 postseason in rushing" which is why I pointed out he played more games than most. Regardless he played well so there is no point in this part of the discussion.

As for the LOS part of your post you're basically arguing my point. He can do what Blount, Green-Ellis, Ridley, etc type JAG RBs can do when they have good blocking. Like I said in my previous post I would like to see him show that he is special and could make something happen when the blocking isn't there. Make a guy miss in the backfield. Break a tackle. Break an open field run for a TD. Do something that a RB drafted 5 rounds later couldn't do.

I forgot that now that Brady isn't a Patriot anymore the homers will do all they can do diminish his contributions. The QB is the single most important position in sports. Everyone will always point to Trent Dilfer and say "see see you can win without a QB!". Okay yes if you have an all time historic defense then yes you can potentially win a Super Bowl with sub par QB play. Brad Johnson had a great year when they won the Super Bowl. He had the highest passer rating in the NFC that season. Jeff Hostetler filled in for an injured Simms and played well and even beat Simms out the next year till he got injured. Will they go down as hall of famers? No of course not but if you were to remove their name from their stat lines no one would scoff at them.

Where is this notion that the team "sucks" as you keep saying? I said the last few drafts have sucked. You keep saying homegrown talent yes there is homegrown talent that helped us win a lot of games but they were guys like Brady, Gronk, Hightower, McCourty, Slater, David Andrews, and Edelman. Aside from Thuney and Mason none of these "homegrown guys" have been drafted recently.

Consider this... Sony is getting paid 1.2 million dollars this season... a pittance in NFL terms. He's getting roughly half of what Rex (free agent) is making and about a third of what White (free agent) is making.

Time has shown all RB's unless they're extremely lucky are fragile. Nick Chubb was more injury prone at Georgia than Sony. It's a brutal position that takes an extreme beating. The Rams gave Todd Gurley 4 yr(s) $57,500,000 and immediately regretted it. There are better places to spend your free agency dollars than RB. Better to draft them, even high draft picks. Sony costs nothing... Sony/Rex/White/Harris/Bolden combined didn't cost what the Rams paid Todd Gurley. Now he's on a one year deal with the Falcons hoping his knees hold out. RB's have short shelf lives.

As far as Brady goes I'm not sure what he has to prove or how I can improve upon the greatest of all-time label universally applied to him. My opinion is about QB's in general, not Brady. Fans give QB's way too much credit. The thing that made Brady great beyond his excellent play was longevity, winning was a byproduct of being on great teams.

There are other "excellent" QB's in the league, Brady has six rings, Brees has one... it's not because Tom is five times better than Brees, it's because the Patriots are that much better than teams Drew has been on.

Here is last year's 12-4 roster, blue represents players the Patriots acquired as rookies:

Isaiah Wynn New England Patriots / 1st / 23rd pick / 2018
Dont'a Hightower New England Patriots / 1st / 25th pick / 2012
Devin McCourty New England Patriots / 1st / 27th pick / 2010
Sony Michel New England Patriots / 1st / 31st pick / 2018
Ben Watson New England Patriots / 1st / 32nd pick / 2004
N'Keal Harry New England Patriots / 1st / 32nd pick / 2019
Patrick Chung New England Patriots / 2nd / 34th pick / 2009
Joejuan Williams New England Patriots / 2nd / 45th pick / 2019
Jamie Collins New England Patriots / 2nd / 52nd pick / 2013
Jordan Richards New England Patriots / 2nd / 64th pick / 2015
Chase Winovich New England Patriots / 3rd / 77th pick / 2019
Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
Damien Harris New England Patriots / 3rd / 87th pick / 2019
Duron Harmon New England Patriots / 3rd / 91st pick / 2013
Stephen Gostkowski New England Patriots / 4th / 118th pick / 2006
James White New England Patriots / 4th / 130th pick / 2014
Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015
Deatrich Wise New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2017
Jarrett Stidham New England Patriots / 4th / 133rd pick / 2019
Marcus Cannon New England Patriots / 5th / 138th pick / 2011
Ja'Whaun Bentley New England Patriots / 5th / 143rd pick / 2018
Matthew Slater New England Patriots / 5th / 153rd pick / 2008
Byron Cowart New England Patriots / 5th / 159th pick / 2019
Jake Bailey New England Patriots / 5th / 163rd pick / 2019
Joe Cardona New England Patriots / 5th / 166th pick / 2015
Nate Ebner New England Patriots / 6th / 197th pick / 2012
Tom Brady New England Patriots / 6th / 199th pick / 2000
Elandon Roberts New England Patriots / 6th / 214th pick / 2016
Ted Karras New England Patriots / 6th / 221st pick / 2016
Julian Edelman New England Patriots / 7th / 232nd pick / 2009
Ryan Izzo New England Patriots / 7th / 250th pick / 2018
Gunner Olszewski
Jakobi Meyers
Jonathan Jones
J.C. Jackson
James Ferentz
Adam Butler
Brandon Bolden
Justin Bethel Arizona Cardinals / 6th / 177th pick / 2012
Korey Cunningham Arizona Cardinals / 7th / 254th pick / 2018
Terrence Brooks Baltimore Ravens / 3rd / 79th pick / 2014
John Simon Baltimore Ravens / 4th / 129th pick / 2013
Jermaine Eluemunor Baltimore Ravens / 5th / 159th pick / 2017
Stephon Gilmore Buffalo Bills / 1st / 10th pick / 2012
Mohamed Sanu Cincinnati Bengals / 3rd / 83rd pick / 2012
Rex Burkhead Cincinnati Bengals / 6th / 190th pick / 2013
Danny Shelton Cleveland Browns / 1st / 12th pick / 2015
Josh Gordon Cleveland Browns / 2nd / 1st pick / 2012 Supp
Nick Folk Dallas Cowboys / 6th / 178th pick / 2007
Kyle Van Noy Detroit Lions / 2nd / 40th pick / 2014
Marshall Newhouse Green Bay Packers / 5th / 169th pick / 2010
Lawrence Guy Green Bay Packers / 7th / 233rd pick / 2011
Phillip Dorsett Indianapolis Colts / 1st / 29th pick / 2015
Mike Nugent New York Jets / 2nd / 47th pick / 2005
Shilique Calhoun Oakland Raiders / 3rd / 75th pick / 2016
Antonio Brown Pittsburgh Steelers / 6th / 195th pick / 2010
Jason McCourty Tennessee Titans / 6th / 203rd pick / 2009
Eric Tomlinson
Matt LaCosse
Jakob Johnson
Kai Forbath
James Develin
Michael Bennett

But yeah... they're really terrible at finding rookie talent.

 

[203Pat]

Consider this... Sony is getting paid 1.2 million dollars this season... a pittance in NFL terms. He's getting roughly half of what Rex (free agent) is making and about a third of what White (free agent) is making.

Time has shown all RB's unless they're extremely lucky are fragile. Nick Chubb was more injury prone at Georgia than Sony. It's a brutal position that takes an extreme beating. The Rams gave Todd Gurley 4 yr(s) $57,500,000 and immediately regretted it. There are better places to spend your free agency dollars than RB. Better to draft them, even high draft picks. Sony costs nothing... Sony/Rex/White/Harris/Bolden combined didn't cost what the Rams paid Todd Gurley. Now he's on a one year deal with the Falcons hoping his knees hold out. RB's have short shelf lives.

As far as Brady goes I'm not sure what he has to prove or how I can improve upon the greatest of all-time label universally applied to him. My opinion is about QB's in general, not Brady. Fans give QB's way too much credit. The thing that made Brady great beyond his excellent play was longevity, winning was a byproduct of being on great teams.

There are other "excellent" QB's in the league, Brady has six rings, Brees has one... it's not because Tom is five times better than Brees, it's because the Patriots are that much better than teams Drew has been on.

Here is last year's 12-4 roster, blue represents players the Patriots acquired as rookies:

Isaiah Wynn New England Patriots / 1st / 23rd pick / 2018
Dont'a Hightower New England Patriots / 1st / 25th pick / 2012
Devin McCourty New England Patriots / 1st / 27th pick / 2010
Sony Michel New England Patriots / 1st / 31st pick / 2018
Ben Watson New England Patriots / 1st / 32nd pick / 2004
N'Keal Harry New England Patriots / 1st / 32nd pick / 2019
Patrick Chung New England Patriots / 2nd / 34th pick / 2009
Joejuan Williams New England Patriots / 2nd / 45th pick / 2019
Jamie Collins New England Patriots / 2nd / 52nd pick / 2013
Jordan Richards New England Patriots / 2nd / 64th pick / 2015
Chase Winovich New England Patriots / 3rd / 77th pick / 2019
Joe Thuney New England Patriots / 3rd / 78th pick / 2016
Damien Harris New England Patriots / 3rd / 87th pick / 2019
Duron Harmon New England Patriots / 3rd / 91st pick / 2013
Stephen Gostkowski New England Patriots / 4th / 118th pick / 2006
James White New England Patriots / 4th / 130th pick / 2014
Shaq Mason New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2015
Deatrich Wise New England Patriots / 4th / 131st pick / 2017
Jarrett Stidham New England Patriots / 4th / 133rd pick / 2019
Marcus Cannon New England Patriots / 5th / 138th pick / 2011
Ja'Whaun Bentley New England Patriots / 5th / 143rd pick / 2018
Matthew Slater New England Patriots / 5th / 153rd pick / 2008
Byron Cowart New England Patriots / 5th / 159th pick / 2019
Jake Bailey New England Patriots / 5th / 163rd pick / 2019
Joe Cardona New England Patriots / 5th / 166th pick / 2015
Nate Ebner New England Patriots / 6th / 197th pick / 2012
Tom Brady New England Patriots / 6th / 199th pick / 2000
Elandon Roberts New England Patriots / 6th / 214th pick / 2016
Ted Karras New England Patriots / 6th / 221st pick / 2016
Julian Edelman New England Patriots / 7th / 232nd pick / 2009
Ryan Izzo New England Patriots / 7th / 250th pick / 2018
Gunner Olszewski
Jakobi Meyers
Jonathan Jones
J.C. Jackson
James Ferentz
Adam Butler
Brandon Bolden
Justin Bethel Arizona Cardinals / 6th / 177th pick / 2012
Korey Cunningham Arizona Cardinals / 7th / 254th pick / 2018
Terrence Brooks Baltimore Ravens / 3rd / 79th pick / 2014
John Simon Baltimore Ravens / 4th / 129th pick / 2013
Jermaine Eluemunor Baltimore Ravens / 5th / 159th pick / 2017
Stephon Gilmore Buffalo Bills / 1st / 10th pick / 2012
Mohamed Sanu Cincinnati Bengals / 3rd / 83rd pick / 2012
Rex Burkhead Cincinnati Bengals / 6th / 190th pick / 2013
Danny Shelton Cleveland Browns / 1st / 12th pick / 2015
Josh Gordon Cleveland Browns / 2nd / 1st pick / 2012 Supp
Nick Folk Dallas Cowboys / 6th / 178th pick / 2007
Kyle Van Noy Detroit Lions / 2nd / 40th pick / 2014
Marshall Newhouse Green Bay Packers / 5th / 169th pick / 2010
Lawrence Guy Green Bay Packers / 7th / 233rd pick / 2011
Phillip Dorsett Indianapolis Colts / 1st / 29th pick / 2015
Mike Nugent New York Jets / 2nd / 47th pick / 2005
Shilique Calhoun Oakland Raiders / 3rd / 75th pick / 2016
Antonio Brown Pittsburgh Steelers / 6th / 195th pick / 2010
Jason McCourty Tennessee Titans / 6th / 203rd pick / 2009
Eric Tomlinson
Matt LaCosse
Jakob Johnson
Kai Forbath
James Develin
Michael Bennett

But yeah... they're really terrible at finding rookie talent.

Once again you seem to be cherry picking what you want to argue. I don't want to make any investment in a RB unless they are productive and take a low market deal like James White. I would rather draft a satellite back in the mid rounds and take a late round flier or UDFA for a bell cow Sonylike plodder. When one back breaks down you have another cheap back waiting in the wings. You don't ever need to pay one or spend any real draft capital on one.

And for the I don't know how manyth time, name a pro bowl level player aside from Thuney or Mason we have drafted in the last 4-5 years?

 

[Wozzy]

Once again you seem to be cherry picking what you want to argue. I don't want to make any investment in a RB unless they are productive and take a low market deal like James White. I would rather draft a satellite back in the mid rounds and take a late round flier or UDFA for a bell cow Sonylike plodder. When one back breaks down you have another cheap back waiting in the wings. You don't ever need to pay one or spend any real draft capital on one.

And for the I don't know how manyth time, name a pro bowl level player aside from Thuney or Mason we have drafted in the last 4-5 years?

The list of rookie RB's who could pass block, run WR routes and understand the pro game directly out of college... who could start and play immediately is smaller than you think. The Patriots offense is complex and their QB was the most exacting QB in the league, they needed someone who could play, not someone who needed time to develop.

Most of the Patriots draft picks last year were red-shirted, that doesn't mean they're not good, it means the team is deep and could only roster 53 players. Edelman didn't suck when he couldn't crack the roster ahead of Branch, Welker and Moss... it meant there were players ahead of him on the depth chart.

We'll find out how good the 2019 draft picks are this year and going forward. This isn't the Bengals or Raiders we're talking about, the Pats aren't desperate to get Damien Harris or JoeJuan on the field.

A whole bunch of homegrown talent contributed to the best record in the league over the last 6 years. "Pro Bowl caliber" is meaningless, the Pro Bowl is a popularity contest and the Patriots the most hated team in the nation, they win everything... opposing fans aren't going to give them pro bowl votes as well.

You can't win with poor players... period.

 

[captain stone]

Where are the fumbles?

Sony:
" "

 

[captain stone]

And for the I don't know how manyth time, name a pro bowl level player aside from Thuney or Mason we have drafted in the last 4-5 years?

Tre Flowers comes the closest I feel, followed by James White, Jimmy G for what he fetched in trade, and to lesser extents Malcolm Brown & Ted Karras...If 2013 is included then there are Collins, Ryan & Harmon...

 

[PatsBoy12]

Once again you seem to be cherry picking what you want to argue. I don't want to make any investment in a RB unless they are productive and take a low market deal like James White. I would rather draft a satellite back in the mid rounds and take a late round flier or UDFA for a bell cow Sonylike plodder. When one back breaks down you have another cheap back waiting in the wings. You don't ever need to pay one or spend any real draft capital on one.

And for the I don't know how manyth time, name a pro bowl level player aside from Thuney or Mason we have drafted in the last 4-5 years?

Guess it's a good thing that there isn't much of a correlation between Pro Bowls and Super Bowls, huh?

 

[203Pat]

The list of rookie RB's who could pass block, run WR routes and understand the pro game directly out of college... who could start and play immediately is smaller than you think. The Patriots offense is complex and their QB was the most exacting QB in the league, they needed someone who could play, not someone who needed time to develop.

Most of the Patriots draft picks last year were red-shirted, that doesn't mean they're not good, it means the team is deep and could only roster 53 players. Edelman didn't suck when he couldn't crack the roster ahead of Branch, Welker and Moss... it meant there were players ahead of him on the depth chart.

We'll find out how good the 2019 draft picks are this year and going forward. This isn't the Bengals or Raiders we're talking about, the Pats aren't desperate to get Damien Harris or JoeJuan on the field.

A whole bunch of homegrown talent contributed to the best record in the league over the last 6 years. "Pro Bowl caliber" is meaningless, the Pro Bowl is a popularity contest and the Patriots the most hated team in the nation, they win everything... opposing fans aren't going to give them pro bowl votes as well.

You can't win with poor players... period.

Okay you win. Our last five draft classes have been studs. The machine will keep rolling along.

 

[TheRainMaker]

And for the I don't know how manyth time, name a pro bowl level player aside from Thuney or Mason we have drafted in the last 4-5 years?

Okay you win. Our last five draft classes have been studs. The machine will keep rolling along.

Their prior draft classes will be on full display this season. No more hiding behind the most cerebral QB in NFL history.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Some people can't leave politics out of a football forum. And even when there is some football discussion I'm reading "QB's aren't as important as other positions. We wouldn't have won the last SB without Sony or he was the most important cog." Paraphrasing but you get the point.

I've never played a down but have talked to countless players & coaches. Some you've never heard of, some you have. No coach, especially, would ever say they won bc of a RB when you have, at times 6 OL on the field blocking in unison. Like you really think the guy running through a hole us more important than Thuney blocking Donald or Andrews blocking Suh? Trent Brown?

Again key contributor but we've seen udfa/mid round picks pump out his production & play on the field. Expecting more from a 1st round pick. Especially the guy we saw at Georgia is warranted.

I wish someone would mention how fragile RB's are. Another reason to wait when you draft one.

 

[varjao]

Where are the fumbles?

Im talking about his market after the rookie contract expires. The guy came out with a bum knee from college, had a minor knee surgery in his first season, now foot surgery.. he still has 2 years left and a possible 5th year option. He will be on the market with a lot of mileage and god knows how many medical procedures.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Some people can't leave politics out of a football forum. And even when there is some football discussion I'm reading "QB's aren't as important as other positions. We wouldn't have won the last SB without Sony or he was the most important cog." Paraphrasing but you get the point.

I've never played a down but have talked to countless players & coaches. Some you've never heard of, some you have. No coach, especially, would ever say they won bc of a RB when you have, at times 6 OL on the field blocking in unison. Like you really think the guy running through a hole us more important than Thuney blocking Donald or Andrews blocking Suh? Trent Brown?

Again key contributor but we've seen udfa/mid round picks pump out his production & play on the field. Expecting more from a 1st round pick. Especially the guy we saw at Georgia is warranted.

I wish someone would mention how fragile RB's are. Another reason to wait when you draft one.

Yeah, this is the most bizarre discussion of the off season.

 

[203Pat]

Some people can't leave politics out of a football forum. And even when there is some football discussion I'm reading "QB's aren't as important as other positions. We wouldn't have won the last SB without Sony or he was the most important cog." Paraphrasing but you get the point.

I've never played a down but have talked to countless players & coaches. Some you've never heard of, some you have. No coach, especially, would ever say they won bc of a RB when you have, at times 6 OL on the field blocking in unison. Like you really think the guy running through a hole us more important than Thuney blocking Donald or Andrews blocking Suh? Trent Brown?

Again key contributor but we've seen udfa/mid round picks pump out his production & play on the field. Expecting more from a 1st round pick. Especially the guy we saw at Georgia is warranted.

I wish someone would mention how fragile RB's are. Another reason to wait when you draft one.

Yep pretty simple point I was trying to make. Sony offers us nothing more than running backs that we acquired with significantly less draft capital. And apparently QB’s don’t matter because Trent Dilfer won one of the 54 Super Bowls.

 

[Triumph]

Son of Maroney

 

[BelizePats]

There is no doubt that we paid a steep price for Sony and that BB actually spent a first on a running back probably surprised a lot of us long time fans. That "game of his life" against 'Bama likely elevated his stock a little higher than he might otherwise have gone.
I'm good with the pick because of the results in 2018. Sony played a pivotal role in that Championship and I'm not going to play the "any running back could have done the same" game.
But, for the last 2-3 years of his contract, I would like to see him become a more complete back. By that I mean more involved in the passing game and more stable in terms of blitz pick up recognition. Sony still has room to grow and improve.

 

[Uptown]

ESPN's Mike Reiss reports Patriots RB Sony Michel (foot) has been rehabbing at the team's facilities for several weeks.
It's the first we've heard of Michel's recovery since he underwent foot surgery in June. He recently posted a photo on Instagram without a walking boot on, suggesting he's been rehabbing in Foxborough without it. His ADP has dipped to the mid-ninth round as the overall RB42 the past month, which is a slight value if healthy for the New England's season opener. Michel remains in line for 200 carries if upright for a full 16 games.

Pats' Sony Michel (foot) has been rehabbing at team facility

Patriots RB Sony Michel (foot) appears to be out of walking boot

Sources: Pats' Michel recovering from foot surgery

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Time for Harris to take over.

Michel+Harry = Maroney+ Chad Jackson

.

 

[luuked]

Again key contributor but we've seen udfa/mid round picks pump out his production & play on the field. Expecting more from a 1st round pick. Especially the guy we saw at Georgia is warranted.

I wish someone would mention how fragile RB's are. Another reason to wait when you draft one.

Given your deep insight into prospects and the draft lets turn this around. What is it then that made BB pick Sony at #32 ? I think we can agree that BB has shown over the years that he not only understands what you are saying about RBs not being as valuable but has until Sony actually practiced it.

So what was different this time ? Would love to see a post mortem on this.

 

[captain stone]

Time for Harris to take over.

Michel+Harry = Maroney+ Chad Jackson

Yep...and what's worse is that we could have and should have had Nick Chubb & AJ Brown, if our grocery-shoppers had a clue...We would've been playing for the AFCC, at the very least...

 

[203Pat]

Sony Maroney will be plodding away in no time.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Given your deep insight into prospects and the draft lets turn this around. What is it then that made BB pick Sony at #32 ? I think we can agree that BB has shown over the years that he not only understands what you are saying about RBs not being as valuable but has until Sony actually practiced it.

So what was different this time ? Would love to see a post mortem on this.

My initial reaction was something along the lines of ... "Not my choice but perfect fit" ... I've come to say RB's are the cherry on top of the sundae and I believe that's sorta how Bill viewed the pick.
I think Bill picked Sony feeling safe in other areas. Viewing the team and Sony in "win now" mode. Pats were the biggest "win now" team in the league for years. And with Sony, you had a 3 down, do-it-all back with a suspect injury history. Him and Wynn were instant impact starters or supposed to be.

What happened after concerning Sony is a real mystery to me. I have no idea why or how things played out the way they did.

Sony was very good and showed some decent reaction and instincts in pass pro. The ability to take the corner and make something happen when the line was clogged up. Power between the tackles. As a rec he was limited but so many RB have been. He showed more than enough there imo. Soft hands, never panicked. Made subtle adjustments on limited sample size.

Idk just a different player. Whether it's the injuries. How we're asking him to run.

To get specific though ...
I don't think Bill cares enough about analytics or what anyone else thinks. To not pick someone he sees as such an obvious fit and need. I think he saw a team that was SB or just. Adding Sony or who we thought was Sony coming out of Georgia. To Gronk, Edleman and co was just too good to pass up.