Sony Michel Injury (update: Expected to Play Week 10 vs Titans)

[BradyFTW!]

You get a grade 1 ACL you will have surgery. Because it is torn. Other tissue might regenerate by themselves but a tear is a tear. Words have meaning.

Players come back from grade 1 MCL sprains without surgical intervention all the time, because it's not necessary for minor damage. To the extent that a grade 1 tear is a tear at all, that's purely a technicality that has nothing to do with how the term is commonly used, and the distinction you drew in this post has no bearing on any of it. The case that you're making is purely semantic to the point that it basically doesn't mean anything, which is why I find it strange that you're accusing others of making semantic arguments. I don't like taking AndyJohnson's side in any debate since I agree he's basically the king of stupid, meaningless, semantic arguments, but it is what it is I guess.

The semantics of it are the only reason why this is even a debate. Because some sources use 'tear' in purely semantic terms, and classify grade 1 sprains as such, while others go with the commonly understood meaning of 'tear' and classify grade 1 as a non-tear sprain, grade 2 as a partial tear and grade 3 as a complete tear. Yes, words have meanings. Lots of words have multiple and/or ambiguous meanings, even. And the purely semantic argument that you're making here ignores the most commonly used meanings of the word in favor of an unintuitive technicality.

 

[Ring 6]

You get a grade 1 ACL you will have surgery. Because it is torn. Other tissue might regenerate by themselves but a tear is a tear. Words have meaning.

NOT surgery.

MCL Tear Treatment | Conditions & Treatments | UCSF Medical Center

If the torn ligament does not heal sufficiently, you may experience instability in the joint, and you will be more susceptible to re-injury. The MCL usually responds very well to non-surgical treatment, although surgery may be required in rare cases. Depending on the severity of the injury, a period of rest, bracing and physical therapy usually is sufficient to heal the tear.

Once the MCL has healed fully, you should have a minimum of long-term effects, providing there was no other damage to the knee.

Recovery times differ depending on the severity of the injury:

• A minor, or grade 1, MCL tear can take from a few days to a week and a half to heal sufficiently for you to return to normal activities, including sports.
• A grade 2 tear can take from two to four weeks to heal.
• A grade 3 tear usually takes from four to eight weeks to heal, unless it is associated with damage to the ACL, in which case the recovery time may be longer.

.

 

[Mike the Brit]

You get a grade 1 ACL you will have surgery. Because it is torn. Other tissue might regenerate by themselves but a tear is a tear. Words have meaning.

Well, actually, no. Think of it like a cable that is composed of twisted individual fibres. If some of them are torn then the cable isn't fully torn through.

And the ligament does have a capacity to regenerate when there is something still there for the new growth to attach itself to. So one of the things about recovery is to make sure that you get back the way you were. I'm not a doctor or a physio, but I've had enough sports injuries to remember the physiotherapist using his thumbs on my knee like he was kneading bread.

But look, here's what happened.

I made a post in which I was careful to distinguish between "tear" and "rupture" -- you can tear a piece of paper without tearing it all the way through. AJ thought he would correct me, because that's what he does, and, when you pointed out that I didn't need correcting, he started to cherry pick semantics and attack the evidence produced rather than just saying "sorry" and walking away.

So we have another exercise in competitive micturation. Surely watching some game film and trying to understand what went right and wrong last Sunday would be a lot more interesting!

 

[Ring 6]

Well, actually, no. Think of it like a cable that is composed of twisted individual fibres. If some of them are torn then the cable isn't fully torn through.

And the ligament does have a capacity to regenerate when there is something still there for the new growth to attach itself to. So one of the things about recovery is to make sure that you get back the way you were. I'm not a doctor or a physio, but I've had enough sports injuries to remember the physiotherapist using his thumbs on my knee like he was kneading bread.

But look, here's what happened.

I made a post in which I was careful to distinguish between "tear" and "rupture" -- you can tear a piece of paper without tearing it all the way through. AJ thought he would correct me, because that's what he does, and, when you pointed out that I didn't need correcting, he started to cherry pick semantics and attack the evidence produced rather than just saying "sorry" and walking away.

So we have another exercise in competitive micturation. Surely watching some game film and trying to understand what went right and wrong last Sunday would be a lot more interesting!

I disagreed with your comment, and researched and posted the correct answer.
That’s not semantics.

 

[luuked]

NOT surgery.

MCL Tear Treatment | Conditions & Treatments | UCSF Medical Center

You know the difference between the ACL and the MCL right ?

 

[maineman209]

If one or the other is done for the year then sure, but if Burkhead is not season ending, hes mandatory return, and if Bently is not season ending then I think him (LB) for obvious reasons over Dawson (CB), but I think Bently could be done for the year so it could be Burkhead and Dawson.

Bently and Burkhead the 2 ir returns?

Players on IR who are eligible to return must be off the roster for a minimum of 8 weeks (can be more). Once a player is designated by the team as a returnee, he's allowed to practice with the team for two game-weeks on a roster exemption before he must be activated, waived, traded or returned to IR for the remainder of the season.

That 2-week practice period may begin after six weeks on IR, AFAIK. If so, Dawson was eligible to begin practicing this past week, if he'd been designated by the Pats as one of the two returnees. Dawson is eligible to return to the active roster for the GBY game on 11/4.

Burkhead and Bentley are both eligible to return to the active roster for the MIN game on 12/2, so, hypothetically,they'd be eligible to begin practicing on an exemption during the week before the BYE (the week leading up to the TEN game). Since the BYE week doesn't count, they'd have an extra week to practice with the team before needing to be activated.

My guess is that the Pats will wait until the beginning of that last week before the BYE to "read the meter" on the health prognosis for all three of these guys, and then select one or two to be their IR-return designees (whichever two are most needed/would be most useful for the remainder of the season and the playoffs). That way, they'd get three weeks of "off-roster" participation before needing to be activated.

BTW - any player who is sent to IR this week would be eligible to return for week-17 and the playoffs, provided that the Pats haven't burned both IR-Return slots on other players.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Players on IR who are eligible to return must be off the roster for a minimum of 8 weeks (can be more). Once a player is designated by the team as a returnee, he's allowed to practice with the team for two game-weeks on a roster exemption before he must be activated, waived, traded or returned to IR for the remainder of the season.

That 2-week practice period may begin after six weeks on IR, AFAIK. If so, Dawson was eligible to begin practicing this past week, if he'd been designated by the Pats as one of the two returnees. Dawson is eligible to return to the active roster for the GBY game on 11/4.

Burkhead and Bentley are both eligible to return to the active roster for the MIN game on 12/2, so, hypothetically,they'd be eligible to begin practicing on an exemption during the week before the BYE (the week leading up to the TEN game). Since the BYE week doesn't count, they'd have an extra week to practice with the team before needing to be activated.

My guess is that the Pats will wait until the beginning of that last week before the BYE to "read the meter" on the health prognosis for all three of these guys, and then select one or two to be their IR-return designees (whichever two are most needed/would be most useful for the remainder of the season and the playoffs). That way, they'd get three weeks of "off-roster" participation before needing to be activated.

BTW - any player who is sent to IR this week would be eligible to return for week-17 and the playoffs, provided that the Pats haven't burned both IR-Return slots on other players.

I think Bentley has a torn pec or bicep which according to Reiss puts him out for the year regardless of his eligibility to return.

 

[maineman209]

competitive micturation

Nice! I'm stealing that.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I think Bentley has a torn pec or bicep which according to Reiss puts him out for the year regardless of his eligibility to return.

Yeah, IIRC the general sentiment seemed to be that Dawson was a likely candidate to return, Burkhead might plausibly be, and Bentley definitely was not.

 

[maineman209]

I think Bentley has a torn pec or bicep which according to Reiss puts him out for the year regardless of his eligibility to return.

Agree. I just included him in the explanation since some folks seemed to get excited that Bentley was running "already".

 

[BradyFTW!]

You know the difference between the ACL and the MCL right ?

The major difference with recovery prognosis is that the ACL has a poor blood supply and the MCL has a great blood supply, which makes minor-to-moderate injuries far easier to heal without surgical intervention. Which is a big part of why you don't see surgeries for grade 1 MCL sprains like Michel apparently has. Grade 1 sprains--minor, microscopic tearing in the ligament without a rupture--are perfectly able to heal with rest.

All that said, I'm not sure what the point of bringing up ACL injuries was in the first place, doesn't seem too relevant to this thread.

 

[luuked]

The major difference with recovery prognosis is that the ACL has a poor blood supply and the MCL has a great blood supply, which makes minor-to-moderate injuries far easier to heal without surgical intervention. Which is a big part of why you don't see surgeries for grade 1 MCL sprains like Michel apparently has.

All that said, I'm not sure what the point of bringing up ACL injuries was in the first place, doesn't seem too relevant to this thread.

Doesn't matter. Moving on. As someone else has said in here really don't want to get stuck in discussion about medical semantics.

Thanks for putting in the time to explain some of the background though. Really appreciate it.

 

[Ring 6]

You know the difference between the ACL and the MCL right ?

A grade 1 sprain of the acl has the same definition

From Johns Hopkins.
What You Need to Know About ACL Injuries


Grade 1
Grade 1 injuries include ACLs that have suffered mild damage, e.g., the ACL is mildly stretched but still provides adequate stability to the knee joint.

 

[Angelpats]

Sounds good, but his foot was (thankfully) off the ground. In other words, his left foot was in the air. Is the air different above field turf as opposed to above grass?

I just watched the replay and his left foot was on the ground and trapped under the defender on the twisting tackle. What probably saved his from a worse injury was the cleats tearing through the grass while he was spun around.

 

[signbabybrady]

Yeah, IIRC the general sentiment seemed to be that Dawson was a likely candidate to return, Burkhead might plausibly be, and Bentley definitely was not.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Damn, Ray Lewis must've hooked him up with some of that deer antler spray.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I made a post in which I was careful to distinguish between "tear" and "rupture" -- you can tear a piece of paper without tearing it all the way through. AJ thought he would correct me, because that's what he does, and, when you pointed out that I didn't need correcting, he started to cherry pick semantics and attack the evidence produced rather than just saying "sorry" and walking away.

So we have another exercise in competitive micturation. Surely watching some game film and trying to understand what went right and wrong last Sunday would be a lot more interesting!

Just know you're not alone out there.

Do you know if Ryan Tannehill's injury/recovery in 2016/17 was a case of being overly optimistic about how those ACL ligaments would repair themselves? That was a strange case but got me reading about this stuff.

 

[The Brandon Five]

17-2!!!!!

 

[signbabybrady]

Damn, Ray Lewis must've hooked him up with some of that deer antler spray.

I don't want him consorting with murderers hopefully he got it elsewhere.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Agree. I just included him in the explanation since some folks seemed to get excited that Bentley was running "already".

Not sure how he is running. I had a torn labrum and it hurt to run.

But I'm a middle -aged wimp....