So the TC base defense is again starting out 4-3

[BradyManny]

This is probably the safest way to put it, because we all know how much stock BB puts into being multiple.

Agreed - as cliched as it is, Belichick will simply put the guys out there that best help the team win. Since that's not an easy thing to define, we have trouble speculating at the moment.

 

[Ring 6]

So when you say that there is ZERO Chance that the Pats play a 4-3 base with smaller DEs it's because of your superior football knowledge, but when BBass and others suggest that is very possible they with go with a smaller LDE this year they are clueless and don't understand football.

If that was at all representative of what I said, then you would have a great point, and I would be an @ss. Sadly, however, that is not what I siad.

Maybe Scott of Bequette will be the LDE or maybe you will be right and it will be Deadrick or Faneane. Either way you are seriously arrogant.

I am giving my opinion, and explaining why it is my opinion. Please show me where I have said mine is any more valid than anyone elses?

 

[Patriot 37]

I am giving my opinion, and explaining why it is my opinion. Please show me where I have said mine is any more valid than anyone elses?

My Quote:
So the idea that our base DEs could Nink and Scott or Bequette and Jones is a real possibility.



Your Response:
No its really not, but I can see why you are confused.

I'm confused ? So is every member of the media and including ex-players who is discussing it as a real possibilty.

 

[Ring 6]

Have you read any of the TC reports at all? Look through them and you'll see that Ninkovich has been playing mostly LE, some RE, and little to no LB.

I recognize that, and I am pointing out that what happens early in camp, and what happens when the season starts are not always the same.

 

[Ring 6]

My Quote:
So the idea that our base DEs could Nink and Scott or Bequette and Jones is a real possibility.



Your Response:
No its really not, but I can see why you are confused.

I'm confused ? So is every member of the media and including ex-players who is discussing it as a real possibilty.

You said that I said ZERO chance. Clearly I did not.

Based upon what has happened in every other season, its not a real possibliity to me. Last season right up until game 1, there was talk like this, and it did not happen.

 

[Ring 6]

This is something that's being ignored this year. We don't know what BB is goig to do with this team yet. Last year, they practiced pretty much exclusively the 4-3 (and nickel and dime) in training camp, yet they still played a lot of 3 down linemen over the course of the season.

The also practiced, and showed in preseason games, a lot of blitzing, aggressive one gap scheme, that didn't carry into the regular season.
BB has talked at length about the process of installing the entire defense and the starting point not necessarily equating to the ending point.

 

[BradyManny]

:

Something perceptive.

Who knew?

Ofcourse, if you threw in something about "situational football", it might get you out of the corner..............

....do you know what the word obviously means?

 

[celticboy04]

Greetings,
I am still surprised to see him go to a traditional 4-3 myself, but like he said he is keeping up with how the league is going. Personally, I just don't think that the talent for the 3-4 is out their like it used to be when the Patriots were winning Super Bowls, especially at 3-4 DE. Also, the Patriots have BIG linebackers for a 4-3 and I am sure that had something to do with it as well.

Celticboy04

 

[captain stone]

The talent for the 3-4 - at least at DE - does indeed not seem to exist on our current roster.

In fact, there are only 3 players total whom I would classify as traditional 3-4 DEs: Bulman,
Deaderick & Fanene, and Fanene has likely never played the position. Ron Brace & Gerard
Warren are IMHO, simply not athletic enough to stay outside on any kind of consistent basis.

Add the fact that Bill has not drafted anybody who could even be considered a candidate for
3-4 DE in the last 2 drafts, and it is not hard to come to the conclusion that he does not envision
using the odd front very often in the future.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

The talent for the 3-4 - at least at DE - does indeed not seem to exist on our current roster.

In fact, there are only 3 players total whom I would classify as traditional 3-4 DEs: Bulman,
Deaderick & Fanene, and Fanene has likely never played the position. Ron Brace & Gerard
Warren are IMHO, simply not athletic enough to stay outside on any kind of consistent basis.

Add the fact that Bill has not drafted anybody who could even be considered a candidate for
3-4 DE in the last 2 drafts, and it is not hard to come to the conclusion that he does not envision
using the odd front very often in the future.

I agree. it seems plainly obvious to me as well.

 

[Deus Irae]

The talent for the 3-4 - at least at DE - does indeed not seem to exist on our current roster.

In fact, there are only 3 players total whom I would classify as traditional 3-4 DEs: Bulman,
Deaderick & Fanene, and Fanene has likely never played the position. Ron Brace & Gerard
Warren are IMHO, simply not athletic enough to stay outside on any kind of consistent basis.

Add the fact that Bill has not drafted anybody who could even be considered a candidate for
3-4 DE in the last 2 drafts, and it is not hard to come to the conclusion that he does not envision
using the odd front very often in the future.

This, to me, is the great oddity of this team on defense. I see the LBs as a group that are best designed for the 3-4 (particularly Spikes and Hightower), and the DE/OLBs as a group that are better served as 4-3 DEs. However, they're not exactly flush at proven, quality 4-3 DT players, either (those who consider Warren to be quality will likely disagree with me on this part).

 

[BradyManny]

Perhaps Chandler Jones is the anomaly who will solve this oddity.

While his size would say he's closer to 34OLB than 34DE, it appears he has the functional strength of someone with much greater size. He's a powerful player - with already good technique (especially for a rookie). Which is allowing Belichick to put less size and more speed out there without sacrificing as much.

The other six guys in the front seven are probably the same players regardless of whether we are in a 34 or 43 front. (Though, that's arguable. I suppose based on what you said about our LBs in the other thread, you may not agree with that point.)

The question is whether Belichick would need to put a true 34DE or a bigger 43DE out there - and so far, it seems he is hoping Jones will be the answer.

 

[fester]

This, to me, is the great oddity of this team on defense. I see the LBs as a group that are best designed for the 3-4 (particularly Spikes and Hightower), and the DE/OLBs as a group that are better served as 4-3 DEs. However, they're not exactly flush at proven, quality 4-3 DT players, either (those who consider Warren to be quality will likely disagree with me on this part).

Interesting ---could it be just a matter of timing in the replacement cycle? The linebackers and the edge players have been made over through the draft in the past three seasons while the interior DTs are still waiting their turn?

 

[celticboy04]

This, to me, is the great oddity of this team on defense. I see the LBs as a group that are best designed for the 3-4 (particularly Spikes and Hightower), and the DE/OLBs as a group that are better served as 4-3 DEs. However, they're not exactly flush at proven, quality 4-3 DT players, either (those who consider Warren to be quality will likely disagree with me on this part).

Greetings,
For some reason I see Hightower being used, at times, the same way Denver uses Von Miller in the 4-3, especially when it comes to nickle packages.

Celticboy04.

 

[mgteich]

I agree with your analysis.

However, I see Belichick using the pre-season to try out lots of defenses.

With regard to Warren, I would like to see him on the 53. He clearly helps to provide flexibility. At very least, he provides flexibility if there are any injuries. "Quality" is a difficult term. For me, Warren provides quality as a backup, as the 5th or 6th (Warren and Brace) wide-body on the team.

This, to me, is the great oddity of this team on defense. I see the LBs as a group that are best designed for the 3-4 (particularly Spikes and Hightower), and the DE/OLBs as a group that are better served as 4-3 DEs. However, they're not exactly flush at proven, quality 4-3 DT players, either (those who consider Warren to be quality will likely disagree with me on this part).

 

[BBass]

Interesting ---could it be just a matter of timing in the replacement cycle? The linebackers and the edge players have been made over through the draft in the past three seasons while the interior DTs are still waiting their turn?

To me it is a complete hybrid 2-5 with Wilfork, Love, and Brace being able to either 34DE, NT or DT and different techniques. I see Fanene and Deaderick as more inside sub rushers for nickel and dime packages.

Left Hybrid OLB/DE - Ninkovich, Cunningham, Scott
Hybrid DT - Love, Fanene, Deaderick
Hybrid DT - Wilfork, Brace
Right Hybrid OLB/DE - Jones, Bequette, Francis

SAM - Hightower
MLB - Spikes
WLB - Mayo

I noticed that the bigger DE/OLB played on the right side and played with his hand in the dirt a lot more then then the left side.

Its a extremely interesting defense in my opinion, and it seems to be exactly what BB was seeking in the draft and free agency. It will be dynamic and versatile like no other defense in the NFL if it works out the way he has planned. I see either Bequette or Cunningham developing into a starter on the left side as the key. Both guys as close to 280lbs with length and that would give the best of both worlds.

I can't call it a 3-4 because it looks like a 4-3 and I can't call it a 4-3 because it seems to have gap principles of a 3-4. It unlike a defense I have seen before.

 

[Deus Irae]

Interesting ---could it be just a matter of timing in the replacement cycle? The linebackers and the edge players have been made over through the draft in the past three seasons while the interior DTs are still waiting their turn?

It could be that, but I think this is an extension of what BB sees as the near future of defense in the NFL. By that, I mean that I think he's looking at base defenses being used in something like 15%-25% of snaps against most teams, and he may be deciding that run anchors are only going to be of top importance down the very center of the field (NT/DT, MLB/S1), except for the rare game against a throwback run team (not that any of them exist right now).

Next draft will be telling, IMO. I'll be looking to see if he decides to draft a huge DT/NT in round one or two, and a big safety along with another big LB in the top rounds, as well.

 

[Kontradiction]

It could be that, but I think this is an extension of what BB sees as the near future of defense in the NFL. By that, I mean that I think he's looking at base defenses being used in something like 15%-25% of snaps against most teams, and he may be deciding that run anchors are only going to be of top importance down the very center of the field (NT/DT, MLB/S1), except for the rare game against a throwback run team (not that any of them exist right now).

Next draft will be telling, IMO. I'll be looking to see if he decides to draft a huge DT/NT in round one or two, and a big safety along with another big LB in the top rounds, as well.

It could also be that he sees the TE revolution in the NFL (being that he started it, of course) and is looking at a better way to generate a pass rush off the edge while having bigger, faster, more athletic linebackers that stand a better chance of covering the TE's than smaller, more natural 4-3 LB's. But that's just me taking a stab at it.

 

[celticboy04]

It could also be that he sees the TE revolution in the NFL (being that he started it, of course) and is looking at a better way to generate a pass rush off the edge while having bigger, faster, more athletic linebackers that stand a better chance of covering the TE's than smaller, more natural 4-3 LB's. But that's just me taking a stab at it.

Greetings,
I saw Hightower play coverage in college and was not impressed at all, but at the same token it did not hurt Bama's defense. I just see the LB position in the NFL in the future putting more emphasis on pass rushing (3-4 OLB) and cover skills(4-3 WLB), and less on big time run stoppers(traditional 4-3 MLB).

Celticboy04

 

[Kontradiction]

Greetings,
I saw Hightower play coverage in college and was not impressed at all, but at the same token it did not hurt Bama's defense. I just see the LB position in the NFL in the future putting more emphasis on pass rushing (3-4 OLB) and cover skills(4-3 WLB), and less on big time run stoppers(traditional 4-3 MLB).

Celticboy04

You may be right. But, from what I saw, Hightower was more responsible for covering RB's out of the backfield and slot receivers over the middle than TE's. But, again, you may be right. As I said, I was just taking a stab at it.