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So the TC base defense is again starting out 4-3

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Our base is a 4-2/2-4. The NFL is a passing league, the sub package is now a 7 man front. This 4-3/3-4 lineup you've spent hours blogging about with 300 pound LDE is the actual sub package.

I know you keep thinking of the Warren, Wilfork, Seymour front but that was 5-6 years ago before half ass QB like Matthew Stafford were tossing for 5,000 yards..

The Patriots are built to score 30-35 points a game, our offense is going to be our best defense against the run.. Teams don't run from behind.

Andy you bring a lot of good points to this blog but you need to move past this 4-3/3-4 base lineup and understand you will see 3 big bodies on the field less then 25% of the time this season.


The base defense is the defense that is played to defend both the pass and run. That has not changed. The fact that we play sub package 50-60% of the time does make the base irrelevant. Everything we do in the base leads to what we do, and how often we are in sub.
If you cannot understand that 1st down is the most important down for a defense, I'm not quite sure what to say to you.
Regardless of your underestimating the % that the base D will be used, the base D is still critical to the success of the defense as a whole.
 
Your idea that you can't stop the run with 2 small (under 270lbs) DEs in the base package is dead wrong. Phi and Atl had better ranked run Defenses than the Pats last year with 2 small DEs in the base package.

So your argument is that if we remove a 300 lb LDE and replace him with a 260 lb pass rusher our run D will improve?
Do the Eagles and Falcons play 1 gap or 2 gap techniques with there small DEs, in their Tampa 2 that is an entirely different system than we use?
 
Your idea that you can't stop the run with 2 small (under 270lbs) DEs in the base package is dead wrong. Phi and Atl had better ranked run Defenses than the Pats last year with 2 small DEs in the base package.

Also, since we played sub something like 63% of the time, where did you get your stats that those teams did better vs the run in base defense?
 
The base defense is the defense that is played to defend both the pass and run. That has not changed. The fact that we play sub package 50-60% of the time does make the base irrelevant. Everything we do in the base leads to what we do, and how often we are in sub.
If you cannot understand that 1st down is the most important down for a defense, I'm not quite sure what to say to you.
Regardless of your underestimating the % that the base D will be used, the base D is still critical to the success of the defense as a whole.

Andy do you watch the games or just blog based on what NFL.com shows as depth charts.

In the games before Andre Carter got hurt we started the game with Ninkovich at LE and Carter at RE.. Heck Madden 13 has a 4-3 over defense specific to the Patriots with a standing LE to mimic the Ninkovich role.

Stop blogging and watch the games. Read a freaking book do something, honestly I was trying to be nice before when I said you brought something to the table but honestly since I joined this forum 3 months ago I see post after post from you reflecting some a level of football knowledge of someone who has been without a TV since 2005.

Justin Tuck - 268lbs
Jarrett Johnson - 265lbs
Robert Mathis - 245lbs

Those are the 3 starting left defensive ends that knocked us out of the playoffs over the last 4 seasons.

You obviously have no interest in expanding your football knowledge and simply come on here to create conflict to fill you obviously lonely life.
 
The base defense is the defense that is played to defend both the pass and run. That has not changed. The fact that we play sub package 50-60% of the time does make the base irrelevant. Everything we do in the base leads to what we do, and how often we are in sub.
If you cannot understand that 1st down is the most important down for a defense, I'm not quite sure what to say to you.
Regardless of your underestimating the % that the base D will be used, the base D is still critical to the success of the defense as a whole.

Some football knowledge for you Andy!!

Base defense "definition" defensive alignment used most often by a team; may also have a personnel dimension to it.

63% = MOST OFTEN...

I can send you some more information if you want to actually know what your talking about...

MORON
 
So your argument is that if we remove a 300 lb LDE and replace him with a 260 lb pass rusher our run D will improve?
Do the Eagles and Falcons play 1 gap or 2 gap techniques with there small DEs, in their Tampa 2 that is an entirely different system than we use?

Don't try to change the arguement, you posted earlier that you need 3 big DL to stop the run. That is compltely wrong and I suspect you know it. Most 4-3 teams over the years have use to small DEs.

I don't know what system the Patriots are going to use this year maybe they go back to the 3-4 ? Maybe Belichick is working through different options.

But here is what we know the defense was horrible last year so BB may want to do something very different.

Wilfork is the lightest he 's ever been.

I first guy in FA we sign is a penetrating DT.

In the 1st 2 practices we lined up with samll DEs exclusively with Deadrick going to DT.

So the idea that our base DEs could Nink and Scott or Bequette and Jones is a real possibility.
 
Don't try to change the arguement, you posted earlier that you need 3 big DL to stop the run. That is compltely wrong and I suspect you know it. Most 4-3 teams over the years have use to small DEs.
First that is not what I posted, and second we are talking about the Patriots, are we not?

I don't know what system the Patriots are going to use this year maybe they go back to the 3-4 ? Maybe Belichick is working through different options.

But here is what we know the defense was horrible last year so BB may want to do something very different.
Do you really endorse a 30 year NFL defenisve genius abandoning his philosophical concepts because of the results of 1 season, a season that ended with a SB berth?

Wilfork is the lightest he 's ever been.
Relevance?

I first guy in FA we sign is a penetrating DT.
Or a sub package inside pass rusher, a spot we were atrocious at last year.


In the 1st 2 practices we lined up with samll DEs exclusively with Deadrick going to DT.
Are we really doing this again? Please search for August of any year posts and see how every season people think we are changing the defense based upon the reports from the first 2 days.

So the idea that our base DEs could Nink and Scott or Bequette and Jones is a real possibility.
No its really not, but I can see why you are confused. Lets table this until mid September, then we can eliminate the ifs and maybes that you are presenting as facts.
 
Some football knowledge for you Andy!!

Base defense "definition" defensive alignment used most often by a team; may also have a personnel dimension to it.

63% = MOST OFTEN...

I can send you some more information if you want to actually know what your talking about...

MORON

You creating a definition is not football knowledge.

But of course if you are so insecure you must resort to personal attacks, then you are of no use to me.
 
Andy do you watch the games or just blog based on what NFL.com shows as depth charts.

In the games before Andre Carter got hurt we started the game with Ninkovich at LE and Carter at RE.. Heck Madden 13 has a 4-3 over defense specific to the Patriots with a standing LE to mimic the Ninkovich role.
The irony of these comments is hilarious to me.
You clearly did not watch games, because what you described never happened. The base D had Ellis or Deaderick at LDE 95% of the time or more.
Maybe you should watch games and not argue based on a video game?

Stop blogging and watch the games. Read a freaking book do something, honestly I was trying to be nice before when I said you brought something to the table but honestly since I joined this forum 3 months ago I see post after post from you reflecting some a level of football knowledge of someone who has been without a TV since 2005.
Feel free not to read my posts.



Justin Tuck - 268lbs
Jarrett Johnson - 265lbs
Robert Mathis - 245lbs

Those are the 3 starting left defensive ends that knocked us out of the playoffs over the last 4 seasons.

When did the Colts knock us out of the playoffs, and was it in Madden where you put the Ravens in a 43?

I must have missed those players playing for the Patriots.



You obviously have no interest in expanding your football knowledge and simply come on here to create conflict to fill you obviously lonely life.

Maybe I should be like you and get all worked up over what someone has to say and attack them personally? Would that be a better way to use my time?
 
Don't try to change the arguement, you posted earlier that you need 3 big DL to stop the run. That is compltely wrong and I suspect you know it. Most 4-3 teams over the years have use to small DEs.

I don't know what system the Patriots are going to use this year maybe they go back to the 3-4 ? Maybe Belichick is working through different options.

But here is what we know the defense was horrible last year so BB may want to do something very different.

Wilfork is the lightest he 's ever been.

I first guy in FA we sign is a penetrating DT.

In the 1st 2 practices we lined up with samll DEs exclusively with Deadrick going to DT.

So the idea that our base DEs could Nink and Scott or Bequette and Jones is a real possibility.

You are correct that we don't know what BB will do. Because of the confusion around the terms "base" and "sub", I prefer to think in terms of 6 and 7 man "fronts" (DL + LB). A couple of thoughts:

1. BB has openly noted that the league is becoming more spread out, and that there is a trend towards slightly smaller, quicker players. It's not clear if this means using more 6 man fronts, using smaller/quicker guys in 7 man fronts, or both. The percentage of 6 vs. 7 man fronts - and even 5 man fronts - will probably vary from week to week depending on the style of the opposing team, and will also depend on the health and availability of key personnel.

2. BB has always valued the ability to stop the run, and it has generally been a hallmark of his defenses. It's hard to envision him selling out on that to become more pass-oriented, regardless of what scheme he runs. So I think that whatever defense he puts out on the field in 1st and 2nd down situations has to be at least competent at defending against the run. While that doesn't require 3 300#+ guys, it does require guys who are long and strong enough to set the edge and 2-gap. It remains to be seen how well 270-280# guys like Jones (with a few lbs. added on) and Bequette can fare in that role, compared with bigger guys like Deaderick and Fanene.

3. You note that "Most 4-3 teams over the years have use to small DEs". But teams around the league that run a 4 man line in a 7 man front vary tremendously regarding the kind of ends that they look for. Sure, Indy has used 250-260# guys at both ends to maximize pass rushing and speed, but they are one extreme generally have been weak against the run. The more complete 4-3 defenses generally have more heft at at least one end spot. San Francisco - the best run defense in the NFL in 2011 - has 285# Justin Smith at LDE, and the Jets had 285# Shaun Ellis at LDE when they ran a 4-3 (and they are considering using 315# Muhammad Wilkerson at LDE in a 4-3 this year, with 280# Quinton Coples at RDE ). Seattle uses 320# Red Bryant at one end, with 260# Chris Clemons in the Leo role at the other. Baltimore has used 340# Haloti Ngata along with 260# Terrell Suggs at times. The Giants have had 275# guys in Justin Tuck and Jason-Pierre Paul, but both have exceptional length and strength (perhaps Bequette and Jones could evolve into something along those lines, but it's a lot to expect out of them as rookies), and New Orleans has something along those lines in 287# Cameron Jordan and 282# Will Smith. There's no one model that works, and a lot depends on individual defensive philosophy and approach, and especially on the players involved.

4. BB has played both 4-3 and 3-4 schemes with a 7 man front in the past, and has used a hybrid approach integrating elements of both, including last year. That generally requires that at least one end be capable of playing a 2-gap 3-4 DE role. Ideally both ends should be capable of playing 3-4 or 4-3 DE, setting the edge, 2-gapping, being pass rushers, and even dropping into coverage on occasion, but those guys are very difficult to find. There are guys who fit that mold - JJ Watt and Shaun Ellis (in his prime) come to mind, and there are some intriguing guys for the future (Margus Hunt, for example). Finding 2 of those guys is very difficult, and getting 1 would be a coup. In the past, there has been a tendency to make tradeoffs, with the RDE being more of a lighter rush-oriented player (Andre Carter, Mark Anderson) and the LDE being more of a heftier, run-stopping 2-gap player (Brandon Deaderick, probably Jonathan Fanene).

5. I wouldn't make too much out of what BB is doing in the first 2 practices, or even out of what we see in training camp. BB tends to be evolutionary in his approach, and he generally focuses on getting a "vanilla" defense down before getting more fancy. He often doesn't like to show too much to the rest of the league too early, and often plays fairly vanilla D in pre-season games and even at the beginning of the season. And he tends to be personnel driven rather than driven by adherence to a given scheme or ideology. I think that he is likely "working through different options", as you suggest, and expect to see him do a lot more of it. Even if the eventual goal is - as I have suggested, as much as anyone - a fluid defense that can morph between schemes without changing personnel, it's unlikely that we'll see it burst out in full glory right away. It will probably be much more subtle, and more clearly related to traditional schemes that BB has run in the past, at least at first. My guess is that he has studied some of the more successful defenses around the NFL, and that he will be incorporating stuff used by teams like the Giants, San Francisco, Baltimore and Seattle.

6. With those thoughts in mind, I think that it's unlikely to see a guy like Rob Ninkovich at LDE on 1st and 2nd down situations, at least most of the time, though anything is possible. I think it's much more likely that we'll see someone like Jonathan Fanene or Brandon Deaderick at LDE and then moving inside on 3rd down (think of how Chris Canty is sometimes used for the Giants), with a guy like Jones/Bequette coming in as a sub rusher or a guy like Hightower/Ninkovich moving up on the line in more pass oriented situations (in a Mathias Kiwanuka kind of role, to once again draw a comparison to the Giants), which is pretty much what Andy has suggested. But I have no crystal ball as to what BB intends.
 
Are we really doing this again? Please search for August of any year posts and see how every season people think we are changing the defense based upon the reports from the first 2 days.


No its really not, but I can see why you are confused. Lets table this until mid September, then we can eliminate the ifs and maybes that you are presenting as facts.

What ? we did change the Defense last year we were a 4-3 team until Carter got hurt just like we were in training last year.

So you are saying that there is NO possibilty that Patriots will start 2 smaller DEs Please tell me who are the potential players who will start in the base package at RDE.
 
When Carter gets resigned they should just start him and Jones, since they can both play run and pass, and call it a day.
 
What ? we did change the Defense last year we were a 4-3 team until Carter got hurt just like we were in training last year.

So you are saying that there is NO possibilty that Patriots will start 2 smaller DEs Please tell me who are the potential players who will start in the base package at RDE.

OK let me try this again.
BB has been coaching in the NFL for 30 years, and directing defenses for well over 20.
In his history he has never, ever used a base defense that sold out the run for the pass rush by using undersized players at the DE and LB positions. The fact that teams like the Colts do is not really relevant to this discussion about what BB will do.
BB has shown a preference for a 34 over a 43, but a willingness to move in and out of both. He also values being able to use both interchangably in a given season. The personell in the 34 and the 43 have always been virtually identical.
In the 34, the DL consists of 3 players responsible for playing 2 gap technique on the T,C and T. That means they must control the blocker and be responsible for the gap on either side. The ILBs play the same technique over the Gs. The OLBs are 2 gapping to the boundary on the TE or 'whoever shows' on the weakside, ie a pulling G or lead FB.
The majority of pass rush in this base defense is coming from one or both of the OLBs, and at least one will rush if it is a pass 99% of the time, and sometimes both will. Since the DL is playing a 2gap technique they are not sold out for pass rushing like a 260lb 1 gap 43 DE such as Freeney is. If you ever watch Freeney he plays pass 100% of the time and adjusts if it is a run, and he is doomed as a run defender.

When BB shifts to a 43, you are taking the above and shifting the NT and RDE left to play over the Gs. The ROLB becomes a DE playing over the T, and is now much more of a liability vs the run being blocked by a T and responsible for the G/T gap and the T/TE(or whoever shows) gap rather than the boundary and inside the pulling G or FB. The LBs now shift in the opposite direction and are over the C and outside the DEs, with the will cheating inside. The DL and LBs still need to play 2 gap technique and the sacrifice you make with the RDE being in a mismatch helps free the LBs a little more. Now one variation BB used last year was to play 2gap on the strong side and some 1 gap on the weakside to accentuate that difference.

If we were to play 2 260lb DEs in a 43, when you look back to the stem to a 34 you now have a 260lb OLB playing 34 DE, 2 gapping the OT, and he will get demolished. You would be asking for a 34 with 5 lbs, one of which is playing 2gap 34 DE.

Certainly if Bill Belichick decides to abandon his most basic tenants of his philosophy on defense and become Tony Dungy, we can have 2 260lb DEs, spinning, swimming, bull rushing, and generally ignoring the fact that they must defend the run on first and 10, and every other down we play our base defense. We would also need to replace our LBs with 230 lb undersized speed guys who can chase the play and a MLB who can shed a blocker but can get 30 yards deep in cover 2. We can trade Hightower, and Mayo, and Spikes.

As far as your question about RDE, it would appear that if we play a 43 base the optoins at LDE are Deaderick, Fanene then probably Pryor, Warren and Brace behind them, although playing Wilfork out there at times has been done.
At RDE you would have Jones, Cunnigham, Scott (I don't believe we see him as a 43 OLB like the Raiders used him one season, if he even makes the team) Bequette (who again I think fans are overrating as a rookie) as the options.
 
What ? we did change the Defense last year we were a 4-3 team until Carter got hurt just like we were in training last year.

There is a big difference between changing the defense and changing the alignment. Hopefully my last post cleared that up.
The talk all of last August was that BB was going to change to an 'attacking one gap' defense because that was what Haynesworth wanted to play. Seems silly now that people were expecting the defense to be changed to accomodate a guy who was cut because he quit on the field in week 9 after playing about 100 snaps all season.
 
Here is an article breaking down team's defensive alignments during 2012. Even though BB relied more heavily on a 4 man line due to the lack of training camp, it shows the Pats operated primarily out of a 3 man line with the 3-3-5 being the most used.
Defensive Personnel Packages

These two links confirm the Pats use a 3-4 as their base defense. I'm including these because there seems to be confusion regarding a true 4-3 alignment and a sub package that places a 4th player on the line.
Base Defenses Used by NFL Teams | Base Blocking Schemes used by NFL Teams|
Base Defense - Football Terms - Defensive Schemes

This link is a nice easy to read study of defensive terms.
Understanding Basic NFL Defensive Concepts
 
As far as your question about RDE, it would appear that if we play a 43 base the optoins at LDE are Deaderick, Fanene then probably Pryor, Warren and Brace behind them, although playing Wilfork out there at times has been done.
At RDE you would have Jones, Cunnigham, Scott (I don't believe we see him as a 43 OLB like the Raiders used him one season, if he even makes the team) Bequette (who again I think fans are overrating as a rookie) as the options.

Alright we'll see. Yes I do believe that we are going to use the people you listed as RDE in the base against most teams (I suppose if we face a team with no QB and a good runner game then we will go big).

Like I said we will see, but if we start Deadrick, Willfork, Love and Nink we will get killed on 1st down passes (like last year).
 
Alright we'll see. Yes I do believe that we are going to use the people you listed as RDE in the base against most teams (I suppose if we face a team with no QB and a good runner game then we will go big).

Like I said we will see, but if we start Deadrick, Willfork, Love and Nink we will get killed on 1st down passes (like last year).

Nink isn't playing RDE in the base, he would be an OLB or on the bench.

Look at it this way.
If we played a 34 with Deaderick-Love-Wilfork on the line and 2 of Hightower, Nink and Jones at OLB with Mayo and Spikes inside, are you concerned that we cannot defend the pass? Because that is the same thing.

I think what you are missing is that instead of turning the 34 or 43 base into a defense that only cares about defending the pass and will get killed by the run, we will use the nickel instead. You seem to want to play nickel with 4 DBs, which is the Colts.
 
They didnt in 2009, which is what he was referring to. Perhaps I was not clear.

Oh ok. That's fine, perhaps I didn't read carefully enough.


I am a little disappointed that the 4-3 is prominent early. Not so much because I think the 3-4 is a better "Base" defense, but more because I think the 3-3, 2-4, and 1-5 nickel defenses are far better then the 4-2 nickel. We'll be in the nickel at least as much as the base.
 
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