Slotting the 2011 Patriots defense

[mb6592]

Deus' inference seems fairly obvious to me. The comparison is that people should not be surprised at the considerable performance drop off of the Patriots D given Mayo and Wilfork would be the only 2 players capable and able to command a position on those powerful Superbowl Patriots defenses.

It's set up as a loaded post to demonstrate, in all it's glory, the lack of talent on D at present.

The problem with this comparison is, it paints those of us that that have watched in horror as this defense has declined from that defense to its present incarnation as a buch of spoiled brats pining for a return to that all time great defense. Most don't fall in that category. We just would lilke to field a respectable, hard nose, solid defense. And, even though a lot of our draft has been on the defensive side of the ball, it feels like we're running in place as we try to get to that level.

 

[strngplyr]

As stated, Mayo over Johnson. The 03-04 defense was insanely good. It's hardly fair to compare them.

However, even if we didn't trade/release any of them, only 3 are still playing in the NFL (one still with us), so barring better luck in the draft/FA we'd still be stuck with our current defense either way.

We'd all love that defense back, but compare offensive production, we've done a complete 180. We went from one of the best defensive teams in the NFL to one of the best offensive teams over a short time span.

I wasn't on these forums during those years, but I could imagine there being similar threads about the offense when they lost games for us (or had to be completely carried by the D just to win).

 

[Deus Irae]

You would need to include Phifer since he was the starter in 2003 and still got a lot of play in 2004 despite injuries.

I thought I had explained my listings, but let me try to clarify. It was 2 seasons being mashed together, somewhat, so I had to leave off players who were partial starters, etc... or just make either/or decisions. I deliberately broke this soft 'rule' at the CB spot, in order for people to have a pair of players they could compare to rather than just the one I perceived as the stronger starter. Despite what at least one poster seems to think, I wasn't looking to stack the deck. If I had been, I'd have put Washington on the list and kept 2011 Wilfork off....

Not sure what you are going to accomplish with this exercise since it involves 2 different schemes in 2 different eras (passing rules, spread offenses, etc) with 2 different team dynamics (2011=offensive focus, 2003/4=defensive focus).

Talent comparison, nothing more

Besides Wilfork, Mayo, Chung, Ninkovich, McCourty and Carter would all have starter or situational roles in 2003/4. Only Johnson would have a tough time finding work on the 2011 team but Vrabel and McGinest would need to adapt their games to the current situation.

Other than my Washington comment, I'm not going to post my opinions on who would start at this time. I've done that elsewhere, and I don't want this to be about my picks. I want it to be about finding a basic agreement on the talent comparison.

 

[ausbacker]

In my defense, if I may, I didn't set it up as a loaded post. It's going to be inherently "loaded" because we're dealing with Super Bowl defenses, but that's been the point of a lot of people discussing the current defense. The talent is what it is, for better or worse. Also, if you want to change the defense from 2003-2004 to 2001, you're more than welcome to add that to the discussion. I just wanted to avoid confusion, but here's that group:

D-Line - Seymour/Hamilton/Pleasant/Mitchell/McGinest
LB - Vrabel/Johnson/Bruschi
CB - Law/Smith
S - Milloy/Jones

I know Deus, but you're an intelligent guy and knew what the response would be given we appear to share similar opinions on the current incarnation of the Patriots D.

The problem with this comparison is, it paints those of us that that have watched in horror as this defense has declined from that defense to its present incarnation as a buch of spoiled brats pining for a return to that all time great defense. Most don't fall in that category. We just would lilke to field a respectable, hard nose, solid defense. And, even though a lot of our draft has been on the defensive side of the ball, it feels like were running in place as we try to get to that level.

I don't deny it's difficult to be a Patriots follower mb6592 because of the entitlement sensation thanks to a ridiculous decade where the Patriots broke and set all sorts of records.

For the record, I completely agree with you RE: the comments about describing the D you'd like to see. I apportion a lot of the defensive woes on BB this season. It cannot be settling as a player and as a team to see the amount of decisions he's made with the backfield specifically; release, cut, sign etc. That's no way to treat a team, despite your best efforts to build a roster capable of winning the Superbowl.

 

[everlong]

You could make the case that Ted Washington played better than Vince ever has in 03 and I'm a big Vince fan. Fact is nobody moved Ted off his spot that year. If age wasn't a factor Bill would have paid him.

 

[ATippett56]

You could make the case that Ted Washington played better than Vince ever has in 03 and I'm a big Vince fan. Fact is nobody moved Ted off his spot that year. If age wasn't a factor Bill would have paid him.

Actually the Oakland Raiders offered more money in the 2004 unrestricted free agency market to Ted Washington than the New England Patriots. The rest, as the saying goes, is history.

 

[robbomango]

it's spelled slaughtering not slotting

 

[jsull87]

Without getting into who goes where. I don't thin this is a fair comparison as then our base was 3-4 and now our base is 4-3.

Would andre carter make it? he does have 10+ sacks this year.

What about anderson with 7?

Apart from that i would say Mayo and McCourty i would pick (fully healthy) on those teams. If you surrounded both of them with talent they would be beasts. Specially if McCourty got some safety help.

 

[jsull87]

You know what is an interesting comparison. Who from the steelers defense this year would make the pats defense of 2003/4?

Polomalu and Timmonds?

Thats about it unless you want Woodley/Harrison over Willie and Vrabel.

How about the other top 5 defenses? Houston, Jacksonville, San Fran?

Ravens are the only team i could see more than 3 making that 2003/2004 pats team (Ngata, Reed, Ray,Suggs)

 

[Fencer]

You could do a similar analysis on offense.

About all we'd keep from the 2003 offense are the holdovers (Brady/Light/Faulk/Branch, who collectively are better this year because Brady is), Koppen (rookie in 2003), and #3/#4 WRs. Plus of course starters from that team would get other reserve slots over the current reserves.

Switching the focus to 2004 does add Dillon.

 

[ATippett56]

Without getting into who goes where. I don't thin this is a fair comparison as then our base was 3-4 and now our base is 4-3.

Would andre carter make it? he does have 10+ sacks this year.

What about anderson with 7?

Apart from that i would say Mayo and McCourty i would pick (fully healthy) on those teams. If you surrounded both of them with talent they would be beasts. Specially if McCourty got some safety help.

Devin McCourty would not start at the left cornerback position over Ty Law.

 

[TheComeback]

I see where this thread is going. The whole point is to lead into a yet another discussion about why Belichick "sucks" at drafting. It has nothing to do with "slotting" the defense.

 

[TheComeback]

You would need to include Phifer since he was the starter in 2003 and still got a lot of play in 2004 despite injuries.

Not sure what you are going to accomplish with this exercise since it involves 2 different schemes in 2 different eras (passing rules, spread offenses, etc) with 2 different team dynamics (2011=offensive focus, 2003/4=defensive focus).

Besides Wilfork, Mayo, Chung, Ninkovich, McCourty and Carter would all have starter or situational roles in 2003/4. Only Johnson would have a tough time finding work on the 2011 team but Vrabel and McGinest would need to adapt their games to the current situation.

Mayo would start over Johnson. People glorify Johnson because he played on those defenses, but in reality he was a limited player.

Mayo can't shed blocks like Ted, but he's good enough at it and much better at everything else. I also think Arrington would start over Poole.

None of the other positions are even debatable, and every Patriots fan knows it, which of course brings into question why this thread even started.

 

[Deus Irae]

I see where this thread is going. The whole point is to lead into a yet another discussion about why Belichick "sucks" at drafting. It has nothing to do with "slotting" the defense.

Vrabel, Poole, Harrison.... not drafted.

Arrington, Carter, Anderson, Ninko, etc.... not drafted.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Ok, since there seems to be a lot of contention about the 2011 defense, Let's start with a simple foundation to see if we can at least find some areas of relative agreement:

Which players on the 2011 defense would start for the 2003-2004 defenses? To make it easier, Let's consider Wilfork obvious since he started in both 2004 and 2011. I'll also put down the list of "starters" from the group, just to make it more accessible to people. Legit starters from 2003-2004 may be left out, but it will be legit starters from that time that will be used. Also, I'll put in 3 cornerbacks for people to compare against so people can use the one they consider the weakest link as a comparison. Lastly, remember that you're comparing the level of play for the included years, not before or after.

D-Line: Seymour/Wilfork/Warren
LB: Vrabel/Bruschi/Johnson/McGinest
CB: Law/Samuel/Poole
S: Harrison/Wilson

Current players who would start on the 03/04 defense: Wilfork, Mayo. Carter's having a great year, but he doesn't really fit in a 3-4, so I'm not sure where to put him for the sake of this comparison. Chung and McCourty would get a lot of playing time as rotational guys, and Spikes might give Johnson a run for his money for the run-stopping ILB role. Arrington's probably the next closest on the list, but primarily as a STer.

 

[Deus Irae]

Current players who would start on the 03/04 defense: Wilfork, Mayo. Carter's having a great year, but he doesn't really fit in a 3-4, so I'm not sure where to put him for the sake of this comparison. Chung and McCourty would get a lot of playing time as rotational guys, and Spikes might give Johnson a run for his money for hte run-stopping ILB role.

Maybe I should have just put in an asterisk for Carter as a passing down sub?


edit: Nah.... it might have led to a Phifer/Carter thing about sub players, and I was trying to avoid that.

 

[TheComeback]

Vrabel, Poole, Harrison.... not drafted.

Arrington, Carter, Anderson, Ninko, etc.... not drafted.

Look, I'll be reasonable this time.

If we're going to compare the talent between this year's team and 2004, the natural question to ask is why there has been such a drastic decline in talent since then.

I offer a few suggestions:

1) The failure of the front office to replace the starting 3-4 linebackers before they left the team. This directly led to a decline in performance and, eventually, a scheme change in 2011. This was a problem as early as 2006, and became a lot more obvious in 2007.

2) Reluctance to invest significant resources in the front seven, possibly due to the high miss rate involved when drafting and signing those players.

3) The team's insistence to continue running a two-gap defense, which not only makes finding adequate players more difficult. It also exacerbates the problem by demanding a longer learning curve for new players, who are almost universally familiar with one-gap schemes.

As for the secondary, the team has just missed on too many draft picks.

These are all ideas I've thought about for a while. I stand by Belichick as one of the better GMs in the league, given the team's continued success since the end of the "dynasty" in 2007, but I think it's fair to ask what he's been doing with the defense.