Slotting the 2011 Patriots defense

[Deus Irae]

Ok, since there seems to be a lot of contention about the 2011 defense, Let's start with a simple foundation to see if we can at least find some areas of relative agreement:

Which players on the 2011 defense would start for the 2003-2004 defenses? To make it easier, Let's consider Wilfork obvious since he started in both 2004 and 2011. I'll also put down the list of "starters" from the group, just to make it more accessible to people. Legit starters from 2003-2004 may be left out, but it will be legit starters from that time that will be used. Also, I'll put in 3 cornerbacks for people to compare against so people can use the one they consider the weakest link as a comparison. Lastly, remember that you're comparing the level of play for the included years, not before or after.

D-Line: Seymour/Wilfork/Warren
LB: Vrabel/Bruschi/Johnson/McGinest
CB: Law/Samuel/Poole
S: Harrison/Wilson

 

[Shockt327]

Well, could Carter or Anderson play 3-4? I'm pretty sure they couldn't, so....

 

[RodThePat]

Maybe Mayo in place of Johnson. That's it.

 

[Rob0729]

The 2003 Patriots were the best defense in team history and one of the more underrated defenses in NFL history. Not really fair to compare this defense to that defense. The 2004 defense was slightly worse than 2003. Why not ask which players on this defense could start on the 2000 Ravens' team or the 1985 Bears team?

Ironically, the 2003 defense is more comparable to this year's offense because both had to carry the other side of the ball in a lot of games. The Pats had six games that year where they scored 17 points or less.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Uhhhhh.....

Mayo in replace of Johnson.

Arrington as CB 2 or 3?

Carter was bad as a 3-4 OLB, so not him.

That's it.

 

[mgteich]

I agree. Carter wouldn't start in the 3-4.

Maybe Mayo in place of Johnson. That's it.

 

[ATippett56]

Why not ask which players on this defense could start on the 2000 Ravens' team or the 1985 Bears team?

It's an apples to oranges comparison in the front seven of 4-3 defense vs 3-4 defense.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I'll play along.

No one on the line changes.

LB- Maybe Mayo for Johnson but I'd rather have Ted vs the run and Mayo for other plays.

CB-The 03 secondary stays intact. However in 04 Poole was never right and Law went down vs Pitt on Halloween. That left Asante and Randall Gay the starters and Hank Poteat as the nickel DB. With that said, I would take McCourty in '10 over everyone but 03 Law and '11 Arrington over everyone but '03 Law.

Part of me wonders if the '11 team had 03 Rodney back there, their pass defense would be measurably better.

 

[mgteich]

So, we have gone from calling the defense one of the worst in nfl history to comparing it to one of the best in nfl history. What's the point?

 

[Rob0729]

It's an apples to oranges comparison in the front seven of 4-3 defense vs 3-4 defense.

Huh?!? The Pats are running mostly a 4-3 this year.

My point was comparing one of the better defenses in league history to this defense is a slanted comparison.

 

[Jared]

If I could add ONE player to the '11 defense, it would be either 2003 Harrison, or a contract year Seymour.

 

[ATippett56]

Lastly, remember that you're comparing the level of play for the included years, not before or after.

D-Line: Seymour/Wilfork/Warren
LB: Vrabel/Bruschi/Johnson/McGinest
CB: Law/Samuel/Poole
S: Harrison/Wilson

Let's not forget the quality of depth at some positions:

DL: Green, Traylor (2004)
LB: Colvin, Phifer

 

[ATippett56]

Huh?!? The Pats are running mostly a 4-3 this year.

My point was comparing one of the better defenses in league history to this defense is a slanted comparison.

I thought you wanted to compare the 2000 Ravens or the 1985 Bears to the 2003/2004 Patriots defense?

 

[Rob0729]

I thought you wanted to compare the 2000 Ravens or the 1985 Bears to the 2003/2004 Patriots defense?

Sorry, I guess I just wasn't clear. I was just saying this is a ridiculous comparison and if we are going to be ridiculous, let's go balls to the wall and compare the 2011 Patriots defense to the two best defenses of all time.

 

[ausbacker]

Sorry, I guess I just wasn't clear. I was just saying this is a ridiculous comparison and if we are going to be ridiculous, let's go balls to the wall and compare the 2011 Patriots defense to the two best defenses of all time.

Deus' inference seems fairly obvious to me. The comparison is that people should not be surprised at the considerable performance drop off of the Patriots D given Mayo and Wilfork would be the only 2 players capable and able to command a position on those powerful Superbowl Patriots defenses.

It's set up as a loaded post to demonstrate, in all it's glory, the lack of talent on D at present.

 

[mb6592]

I would slot them below "solidly above middle of the road."

 

[Deus Irae]

Let's not forget the quality of depth at some positions:

DL: Green, Traylor (2004)
LB: Colvin, Phifer

I didn't want to get too far into it. They're will be some people griping about the parameters as it is. As I stated, I just thought it would be good to get a foundation that most can agree upon. The current back and forth is largely a wasted exercise, imo, because people are consistently comparing apples to oranges when they try breaking things down.

 

[Metaphors]

D-Line: Seymour/Wilfork/Warren
LB: Vrabel/Bruschi/Johnson/McGinest
CB: Law/Samuel/Poole
S: Harrison/Wilson

You would need to include Phifer since he was the starter in 2003 and still got a lot of play in 2004 despite injuries.

Not sure what you are going to accomplish with this exercise since it involves 2 different schemes in 2 different eras (passing rules, spread offenses, etc) with 2 different team dynamics (2011=offensive focus, 2003/4=defensive focus).

Besides Wilfork, Mayo, Chung, Ninkovich, McCourty and Carter would all have starter or situational roles in 2003/4. Only Johnson would have a tough time finding work on the 2011 team but Vrabel and McGinest would need to adapt their games to the current situation.

 

[ATippett56]

It's set up as a loaded post to demonstrate, in all it's glory, the lack of talent on D at present.

All it takes is a few key free agent signings, a damn good NFL entry draft, and possibly a trade to turn around the 2011 New England Patriots defense:

From the 2002 NFL Season to the 2003 NFL Season:

2003 Unrestricted Free Agency
Rodney Harrison
Tyrone Poole
Rosevelt Colvin

2003 NFL Draft
Ty Warren, 1st Round
Eugene Wilson, 2nd Round
Asante Samuel, 4th Round

2003 NFL Trade(s)
Ted Washington, 2004 4th round draft pick

The 2003 New England Patriots integrated three new starters in the defensive secondary.

 

[Deus Irae]

Deus' inference seems fairly obvious to me. The comparison is that people should not be surprised at the considerable performance drop off of the Patriots D given Mayo and Wilfork would be the only 2 players capable and able to command a position on those powerful Superbowl Patriots defenses.

It's set up as a loaded post to demonstrate, in all it's glory, the lack of talent on D at present.

In my defense, if I may, I didn't set it up as a loaded post. It's going to be inherently "loaded" because we're dealing with Super Bowl defenses, but that's been the point of a lot of people discussing the current defense. The talent is what it is, for better or worse. Also, if you want to change the defense from 2003-2004 to 2001, you're more than welcome to add that to the discussion. I just wanted to avoid confusion, but here's that group:

D-Line - Seymour/Hamilton/Pleasant/Mitchell/McGinest
LB - Vrabel/Johnson/Bruschi
CB - Law/Smith
S - Milloy/Jones