Silver Lining... Sony Michel

[captain stone]

Rex is a scat back, quick tight area tight of back. Knee injuries usually take longer for this type of back. Since he qualifies for the vet minimum, I doubt we sign him before the season starts, if ever. BB probably has a list of other scat backs to sign who are younger. But these guys commonly have knee injuries. I think it will be Sony, Harris, JJ and another vet scat back plus a late round draft pick. Maybe Bolden, but BB told the MNF crew he has no idea if the opt-outs will even play in 2021, so he is obviously foreshadowing some are not coming back.

Don't know if Bill actively tries to sign a vet 3D Back until White signs elsewhere first...And if Bolden doesn't return then we'll also need another Big Back/STer to replace him...There should be decent candidates from both the UFA & UDFA markets for both types; no need to spend any draft resources on the position this year.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Don't know if Bill actively tries to sign a vet 3D Back until White signs elsewhere first...And if Bolden doesn't return then we'll also need another Big Back/STer to replace him...There should be decent candidates from both the UFA & UDFA markets for both types; no need to spend any draft resources on the position this year.

Agreed. I think BB likes to have two scat backs for injury replacement and that is why he carried Burkhead and White. If White stays I expect to see another new scat back. I agree no need for draft resources. With Dan Vitale and Dalton Keene on the roster next year, in addition to Jacob Johnson, I don't think we need another Big Back if Bolden retires. Need other guys in my opinion.

Really need a NT that can push the pocket, and 1, if not 2, stout defensive ends plus a LB to pair with Hightower. I think Winovich and Uche can support next year (3rd down and the odd 2nd down as well). I would love Bud Dupree coming off his ACL repair at a discount - perfect guy to pair with Hightower.

Stidham will be the next Joe Montana/Tom Brady in 2022. (added that to piss off the trolls).

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Funny you would bring that up. Did a lot of people rank Duke Dawson, Jordan Richards or Cyrus Jones as high second round picks? If BB gets an pass because some experts ranked Michel high, then he should get blamed for going completely off the board and draft those three idiots a good round or three before they were supposed to get picked. Oh and by the way, it is actually BB and his personnel department's job to figure out who are the good players in a draft, not some online experts. If online experts are what we go by nowadays, then we should just fire the entire personnel department, get ESPN Insider access and use Todd McShay or Mel Kiper Jr's mock drafts as our big board.

The sh-tty WR/CB scouting system was developed by McDaniels 15 years ago. We draft well except for positions that McDaniels touched or touches still. We drafted great from 09-12 when McD was gone.

.

 

[slifersd]

The sh-tty WR/CB scouting system was developed by McDaniels 15 years ago. We draft well except for positions that McDaniels touched or touches still. We drafted great from 09-12 when McD was gone.

.

I don't disagree with the sentiment, but to me, putting everything on McDaniels is oversimplifying the problem too. We all know BB is a business first type of coach/GM. If he is employing McDaniels and his system just because he likes McD, then that pretty much goes against everything BB believes in. To me, we are in the hole because BB fundamentally believes in whatever system they are using, despite the results. And that is the biggest concern. We can get rid of McD pretty easily, but if BB is the one that is stuck in his ways, then we are doomed.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

I don't disagree with the sentiment, but to me, putting everything on McDaniels is oversimplifying the problem too. We all know BB is a business first type of coach/GM. If he is employing McDaniels and his system just because he likes McD, then that pretty much goes against everything BB believes in. To me, we are in the hole because BB fundamentally believes in whatever system they are using, despite the results. And that is the biggest concern. We can get rid of McD pretty easily, but if BB is the one that is stuck in his ways, then we are doomed.

Bill is not afraid and often goes against conventional wisdom - sometimes to our detriment but often with success. I don't think about him 'changing', but he is constantly trying to grow and learn and as long as he wants to I want him for our coach.

One of the frustrating and annoying traits is, indeed, being beholden to a system, and inflexibility. I'll still take the six Lombardi trophies. And we all want a seventh.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

The sh-tty WR/CB scouting system was developed by McDaniels 15 years ago. We draft well except for positions that McDaniels touched or touches still. We drafted great from 09-12 when McD was gone.

.

I don't know if the Malcolm Butler thread remains the biggest ever, but that game was in fact lost when, with plenty of time on the clock, all our timeouts and the two minute warning, the Eagles incapable of stopping us, the season on the line and the title within our grasp -- McDaniels dropped the quarterback back to pass on first down.

This, after I'd spent the entire prior commercial break repeating, "Run the ball, control the clock, don't leave any time left for them, and DON'T hang Tom out to dry - he's human!"

As usual, we get the opposite from McDaniels.

 

[slifersd]

Bill is not afraid and often goes against conventional wisdom - sometimes to our detriment but often with success. I don't think about him 'changing', but he is constantly trying to grow and learn and as long as he wants to I want him for our coach.

One of the frustrating and annoying traits is, indeed, being beholden to a system, and inflexibility. I'll still take the six Lombardi trophies. And we all want a seventh.

I know he is not afraid to go against the grain on things, but the idea that he has been successful at them definitely isn't true in the last seven years. He picked up a bunch of guys who were considered massive reaches where they were drafted like Jordan Richards, Cyrus Jones and Duke Dawson. All of those guys flamed out badly. And that in essence is the issue we have right now. We used to be hit and miss with our draft, now we just miss. I know BB is known as an adapter, but his track record the last 7 years in the draft hasn't improved at all. Whatever funk he is in, if he doesn't figure it out and get if fixed, this rebuild will take a lot longer than all of us would hope.

 

[DaBruinz]

I know he is not afraid to go against the grain on things, but the idea that he has been successful at them definitely isn't true in the last seven years. He picked up a bunch of guys who were considered massive reaches where they were drafted like Jordan Richards, Cyrus Jones and Duke Dawson. All of those guys flamed out badly. And that in essence is the issue we have right now. We used to be hit and miss with our draft, now we just miss. I know BB is known as an adapter, but his track record the last 7 years in the draft hasn't improved at all. Whatever funk he is in, if he doesn't figure it out and get if fixed, this rebuild will take a lot longer than all of us would hope.

Richards, Jones and Dawson didn't "flame out". Jones and Dawson both got caught in a numbers game because of the addition of first Butler and then Jackson. Not to mention Jonathan Jones. This idea that you have that BB hasn't improved in the last 7 years of the draft is perplexing. Especially considering THIS YEAR'S Amazing group and the really good group from last year.

Hell, going back to 2014, there are still 4 guys in the NFL from that draft in Garappolo, White, Halapio, and Fleming. Stork gave the Pats 1 good year and 1 mediocre year before concussions destroyed his brain..

2015 - Malcolm Brown, Trey Flowers, Shaq Mason, Daryl Roberts.
2016 - Thuney, Brissett, Grugier-Hill, Elandon Roberts, Ted Karras Cardona
2017 - Wise (the year BB traded a majority of the Pats picks).
2018 - Wynn, Michel, Dawson, Bentley, Barrios, Crossen, Izzo
2019 - Harry, Williams, Harris, Winovich, Cowart, Bailey, Webster
2020 - Dugger, Uche, Keene, Asiasi, Onwenu, Herron, Maluia

This team has never been built JUST from the draft. It's been built via trades and free agency as well. More than many other teams. This idea that your pushing that we "just miss with the draft" is complete garbage and not supported by reality.

 

[slifersd]

Richards, Jones and Dawson didn't "flame out". Jones and Dawson both got caught in a numbers game because of the addition of first Butler and then Jackson. Not to mention Jonathan Jones. This idea that you have that BB hasn't improved in the last 7 years of the draft is perplexing. Especially considering THIS YEAR'S Amazing group and the really good group from last year.

Hell, going back to 2014, there are still 4 guys in the NFL from that draft in Garappolo, White, Halapio, and Fleming. Stork gave the Pats 1 good year and 1 mediocre year before concussions destroyed his brain..

2015 - Malcolm Brown, Trey Flowers, Shaq Mason, Daryl Roberts.
2016 - Thuney, Brissett, Grugier-Hill, Elandon Roberts, Ted Karras Cardona
2017 - Wise (the year BB traded a majority of the Pats picks).
2018 - Wynn, Michel, Dawson, Bentley, Barrios, Crossen, Izzo
2019 - Harry, Williams, Harris, Winovich, Cowart, Bailey, Webster
2020 - Dugger, Uche, Keene, Asiasi, Onwenu, Herron, Maluia

This team has never been built JUST from the draft. It's been built via trades and free agency as well. More than many other teams. This idea that your pushing that we "just miss with the draft" is complete garbage and not supported by reality.

Richards, Jones and Dawson didn't flame out? By what standards would you consider those SECOND round picks even remotely successful? If I am not wrong, Dawson is still in the NFL and barely playing for the Broncos while the other two are gone from the league already. If you think they didn't make it big in NE because of a "numbers game" then why didn't they make it anywhere else too? Oh and if the "numbers game" was the issue, then who was the idiot that kept drafting second round corners when he had like 7 good corners on the roster? Was it not BB's decision to keep picking corners when he had a loaded secondary? Joejuan Williams falls into the same category of a guy who will probably get cut this offseason but you are just going to keep making excuses as if BB didn't know he had Gilmore, JMac, JC Jackson, Jon Jones on the roster already. We were not assigned these players, we made the decision to bring them in and the chief decision maker needs to be held accountable for the decisions he made.

I think it is too early to judge the 2020 draft class for sure, but the idea that they are "amazing" is a bit overblown. Who amongst this year's draft class would you say has the looks of a fundamental piece of our next championship team? Dugger, maybe? Uche, maybe? Keene and Asiasi have shown absolutely nothing combined, same as Jennings. Onwenu is good for where he is drafted, but would you trust him to be our long term OL starter? I don't want to be too judgmental with first year players, but I sure as hell don't think any of them make me feel "amazing" when I watch them play.

I like the list of players you listed there, but I somehow feel like they prove my point more than yours. Look at that list, there isn't a single all pro on it. Hell, other than maybe Thuney, I don't think there is even a pro bowler on it. If that doesn't say we messed up with our draft, I don't know what would. I mean, are we supposed to excuse the Dominique Easley pick in the first round because we got Joe Cardona? Or are we supposed to pretend Michel/Harry are world class players who is just taking their time to develop? Are you seriously telling me you consider someone like Ryan Izzo a success? How does a team go six years without a single all pro drafted? By doing their drafting poorly, that's how.

You are correct, no team is built only through the draft. But there isn't a single team out there who can sustain long term success without at least adequate drafting. Hard cap in the NFL pretty much makes it impossible for a team to be good for a long period of time when it's built exclusively through FA and trades. That is why all these NFL teams try their butt off to acquire more draft picks every year. Without drafting even adequately, we have no path to contention again. And if you think a draft class featuring a new batch of Harry, Michel, Dawson, Cyrus Jones or Ryan Izzo is going to be our key to future success, then good luck to ya, bud.

 

[DaBruinz]

Richards, Jones and Dawson didn't flame out? By what standards would you consider those SECOND round picks even remotely successful? If I am not wrong, Dawson is still in the NFL and barely playing for the Broncos while the other two are gone from the league already. If you think they didn't make it big in NE because of a "numbers game" then why didn't they make it anywhere else too? Oh and if the "numbers game" was the issue, then who was the idiot that kept drafting second round corners when he had like 7 good corners on the roster? Was it not BB's decision to keep picking corners when he had a loaded secondary? Joejuan Williams falls into the same category of a guy who will probably get cut this offseason but you are just going to keep making excuses as if BB didn't know he had Gilmore, JMac, JC Jackson, Jon Jones on the roster already. We were not assigned these players, we made the decision to bring them in and the chief decision maker needs to be held accountable for the decisions he made.

I think it is too early to judge the 2020 draft class for sure, but the idea that they are "amazing" is a bit overblown. Who amongst this year's draft class would you say has the looks of a fundamental piece of our next championship team? Dugger, maybe? Uche, maybe? Keene and Asiasi have shown absolutely nothing combined, same as Jennings. Onwenu is good for where he is drafted, but would you trust him to be our long term OL starter? I don't want to be too judgmental with first year players, but I sure as hell don't think any of them make me feel "amazing" when I watch them play.

I like the list of players you listed there, but I somehow feel like they prove my point more than yours. Look at that list, there isn't a single all pro on it. Hell, other than maybe Thuney, I don't think there is even a pro bowler on it. If that doesn't say we messed up with our draft, I don't know what would. I mean, are we supposed to excuse the Dominique Easley pick in the first round because we got Joe Cardona? Or are we supposed to pretend Michel/Harry are world class players who is just taking their time to develop? Are you seriously telling me you consider someone like Ryan Izzo a success? How does a team go six years without a single all pro drafted? By doing their drafting poorly, that's how.

You are correct, no team is built only through the draft. But there isn't a single team out there who can sustain long term success without at least adequate drafting. Hard cap in the NFL pretty much makes it impossible for a team to be good for a long period of time when it's built exclusively through FA and trades. That is why all these NFL teams try their butt off to acquire more draft picks every year. Without drafting even adequately, we have no path to contention again. And if you think a draft class featuring a new batch of Harry, Michel, Dawson, Cyrus Jones or Ryan Izzo is going to be our key to future success, then good luck to ya, bud.

First of all, You're confusing being an ALL-PRO with going to the Pro-Bowl. The Pro-Bowl is nothing but a popularity contest. Next, there are plenty of teams that haven't drafted an ALL-PRO player for 6 years. And that's BS because Thuney has been playing at an ALL-PRO level but never recognized for it. So you thinking that not having drafted an "ALL-PRO" or "Pro-Bowler" for 6 years has any merit just shows the lack of knowledge and understanding you have.

Cyrus Jones is out of the league because he had a congenital heart defect that was only found during his exit physical with the Ravens. He just had it surgically fixed.

Dawson and Jones BOTH lost out in the numbers game. You'd know that if you'd actually paid attention to anything. The fact you are harping on Jordan Richards when he is on his 6th year in the NFL just goes to show how weak your argument actually is. Remember, the league average is less than 4 years.

Williams isn't going to get cut this off-season. There is no point. He's a valuable special teamer, he backs up at the Big Safety Position that Chung plays and he's played at Outside Corner when called upon. Williams wasn't drafted to solely be a CORNER. He was drafted to be able to handle the bigger TEs and RBs out of the backfield similar to how Brandon Browner did. Since you haven't been paying attention, Patrick Chung is on the wrong side of 30 and the Pats didn't have an effective back-up for him when he went down in the SB against the Eagles and when he went down last year (when Williams was a rookie). You might also want to educate yourself to the fact that DMac is also on the wrong side of 30. The Patriots have been working to find players to develop so that they can move on without too much of an issue. Williams has a role to play. So does Dugger.

You don't seem to understand that you have to keep adding at certain positions every year because of the number of players a team needs to have at that position to cover injuries. CB/DB is second only to O-Line when it coms to the number of players a team needs to have. People like you would be whining if the Patriots didn't have a CB like JMac to come off the bench or to play on Special Teams and be in reserve.

Your assessment of everything else is ridiculous. Especially claiming that Onwenu is only "Good" for where he was drafted. Most draft people have said that Onwenu was the find of the draft and expect him to be a full time starter for many years provided that injuries don't cut his career short. You are being "too judgmental" and it's really ridiculous. No one said to "excuse" the Easely pick. But pretending that the REST of that draft didn't exist and that there haven't been BETTER drafts since then (which is exactly what you have done) when that draft was 7 years ago, speaks volumes.

Players like Ryan Izzo ARE a success. They've beaten the odds and are seeing playing time. Izzo isn't an ALL-PRO but it's rare that a 7th round pick is anything more than a Special Teams player. Izzo plays on special teams, is a decent blocker and typically catches the catchable passes thrown his way. Does he make mistakes? Sure. Does he get over-powered now and then by some of the Elite DEs? Yep. But that's to be expected. A 7th round pick proving he is at least a JAG is an accomplishment in and of itself.

The reality, to this point, is that your concepts of what it means to "draft adequately" is severely lacking. I'm going to suggest you go to the draft forum and read everything you can from @BaconGrundleCandy. Then maybe pick yourself up a copy of Steven Belichick's book "Football Scouting Methods". That way you'll be able to have cogent discussions about what "draft success" means going forward. Right now it's obvious that you focus on the scoreboard, stats and know-nothing pundit news articles without understand the intricacies of the game itself.

P.S. The fact that you have issues with Michel when he's putting up 5.9 YPC this season is a perfect example of you not understanding the game. As is your knocking Harry when we have a garbage QB in Newton.

 

[cupofjoe1962]

I fully expect the Patriots to turn down Michel’s 5th year option, so next year Michel will be here, but he will probably be gone in 2022.

 

[jah]

I don't know if the Malcolm Butler thread remains the biggest ever, but that game was in fact lost when, with plenty of time on the clock, all our timeouts and the two minute warning, the Eagles incapable of stopping us, the season on the line and the title within our grasp -- McDaniels dropped the quarterback back to pass on first down.

This, after I'd spent the entire prior commercial break repeating, "Run the ball, control the clock, don't leave any time left for them, and DON'T hang Tom out to dry - he's human!"

As usual, we get the opposite from McDaniels.

I'll never understand blaming the offense for that loss. The production they had already contributed up to that pivotal moment should have won 99% of games. The reason it didn't is on the defense.

 

[captain stone]

Bill is not afraid and often goes against conventional wisdom - sometimes to our detriment but often with success. I don't think about him 'changing', but he is constantly trying to grow and learn and as long as he wants to I want him for our coach.

One of the frustrating and annoying traits is, indeed, being beholden to a system, and inflexibility. I'll still take the six Lombardi trophies. And we all want a seventh.

Yes we do, but we're not sniffing a seventh as long as there's a Belichick - and not a Brady - in the building.

 

[slifersd]

First of all, You're confusing being an ALL-PRO with going to the Pro-Bowl. The Pro-Bowl is nothing but a popularity contest. Next, there are plenty of teams that haven't drafted an ALL-PRO player for 6 years. And that's BS because Thuney has been playing at an ALL-PRO level but never recognized for it. So you thinking that not having drafted an "ALL-PRO" or "Pro-Bowler" for 6 years has any merit just shows the lack of knowledge and understanding you have.

Cyrus Jones is out of the league because he had a congenital heart defect that was only found during his exit physical with the Ravens. He just had it surgically fixed.

Dawson and Jones BOTH lost out in the numbers game. You'd know that if you'd actually paid attention to anything. The fact you are harping on Jordan Richards when he is on his 6th year in the NFL just goes to show how weak your argument actually is. Remember, the league average is less than 4 years.

Williams isn't going to get cut this off-season. There is no point. He's a valuable special teamer, he backs up at the Big Safety Position that Chung plays and he's played at Outside Corner when called upon. Williams wasn't drafted to solely be a CORNER. He was drafted to be able to handle the bigger TEs and RBs out of the backfield similar to how Brandon Browner did. Since you haven't been paying attention, Patrick Chung is on the wrong side of 30 and the Pats didn't have an effective back-up for him when he went down in the SB against the Eagles and when he went down last year (when Williams was a rookie). You might also want to educate yourself to the fact that DMac is also on the wrong side of 30. The Patriots have been working to find players to develop so that they can move on without too much of an issue. Williams has a role to play. So does Dugger.

You don't seem to understand that you have to keep adding at certain positions every year because of the number of players a team needs to have at that position to cover injuries. CB/DB is second only to O-Line when it coms to the number of players a team needs to have. People like you would be whining if the Patriots didn't have a CB like JMac to come off the bench or to play on Special Teams and be in reserve.

Your assessment of everything else is ridiculous. Especially claiming that Onwenu is only "Good" for where he was drafted. Most draft people have said that Onwenu was the find of the draft and expect him to be a full time starter for many years provided that injuries don't cut his career short. You are being "too judgmental" and it's really ridiculous. No one said to "excuse" the Easely pick. But pretending that the REST of that draft didn't exist and that there haven't been BETTER drafts since then (which is exactly what you have done) when that draft was 7 years ago, speaks volumes.

Players like Ryan Izzo ARE a success. They've beaten the odds and are seeing playing time. Izzo isn't an ALL-PRO but it's rare that a 7th round pick is anything more than a Special Teams player. Izzo plays on special teams, is a decent blocker and typically catches the catchable passes thrown his way. Does he make mistakes? Sure. Does he get over-powered now and then by some of the Elite DEs? Yep. But that's to be expected. A 7th round pick proving he is at least a JAG is an accomplishment in and of itself.

The reality, to this point, is that your concepts of what it means to "draft adequately" is severely lacking. I'm going to suggest you go to the draft forum and read everything you can from @BaconGrundleCandy. Then maybe pick yourself up a copy of Steven Belichick's book "Football Scouting Methods". That way you'll be able to have cogent discussions about what "draft success" means going forward. Right now it's obvious that you focus on the scoreboard, stats and know-nothing pundit news articles without understand the intricacies of the game itself.

P.S. The fact that you have issues with Michel when he's putting up 5.9 YPC this season is a perfect example of you not understanding the game. As is your knocking Harry when we have a garbage QB in Newton.

No reason to get testy, argue my points, don't throw random insults. I follow this team just like you do, or else I wouldn't have known who the heck Jordan Richards is.

Boy, you have a low expectation of the draft, that is all I got out of what you wrote there. I mean, I guess if we don't actually draft nothing but dudes who got cut in training camp, that's considered a success by your standard? Hell, why don't we just draft a punter in the first round next year? He can have a 10 year career, and you can call that a successful draft pick. Your method of evaluation is...interesting, I guess.

I really love your point about needing to add to positions to ensure the pipeline is full. I think that is exactly what a team should do. I am just not sure why BB only does that to corners/secondary and does nothing with WR and TE. Is it in the NFL rule book that we can only have one TE on the roster? I actually am not mad that BB spends a lot of resources on the secondary, but I have an issue when he completely ignores offensive skill positions because of it. Stay consistent with your approach.

Alright, I guess you are a reader of football books lol. Tell me, my man, who in the scouting circle thinks Harry was a good pick up? Or for that matter, Duke Dawson, Jordan Richards (even in his sixth season of being a special team only player as a second round pick) or Cyrus Jones (heart issue or not, the guy got ran out of town by Pats fans for being completely awful). You claim I don't watch games or know anything about this team, what game did you watch where any of those guys played well? Harry is bad because of Cam? Was he better when Brady was here? The most accurate QB in history didn't even target him because he didn't know what he was doing. I didn't write off Michel, BB did that when he gave his job to Harris. If Michel is this amazing RB, how come BB didn't want to play him at all even after he came back from IR? Coach's decisions speak louder than any random books. Also kind of funny you claim I only focus on score boards when all you can about Michel is 5.9YPC lol. Isn't that scoreboard material?

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

I'll never understand blaming the offense for that loss. The production they had already contributed up to that pivotal moment should have won 99% of games. The reason it didn't is on the defense.

Yes, the main reason. That doesn't contradict my point about the OC being oblivious to the circumstances and losing a game that should have been won despite the defense.

 

[sb1]

We're not sniffing a seventh as long as there's a Belichick - and not a Brady - in the building.

Nor if neither is in the building, at least not in the 2020’s.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

We're not sniffing a seventh as long as there's a Belichick - and not a Brady - in the building.

No chance?

...3 or 4 big pieces need to fall into place and we're right there. No other team in the league scares me.

 

[Ring 6]

I hate this argument. Anyone could have ran behind that offensive line and TE group. Blount, Ridley, and BJGE could have done what Sony did.

And I hate that argument. Michel did it. You can’t take what one player accomplished and just give someone who did not credit that they would have.
This is the Brady’s not the GOAT because Manning would have won as many if he was on the patriots argument. It’s wrong.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Nor if neither is in the building, at least not in the 2020’s.

"Bill Belichick is walking through that door folks, and he's old and grey...and still brilliant."

 

[Ring 6]

I don't disagree with the sentiment, but to me, putting everything on McDaniels is oversimplifying the problem too. We all know BB is a business first type of coach/GM. If he is employing McDaniels and his system just because he likes McD, then that pretty much goes against everything BB believes in. To me, we are in the hole because BB fundamentally believes in whatever system they are using, despite the results. And that is the biggest concern. We can get rid of McD pretty easily, but if BB is the one that is stuck in his ways, then we are doomed.

The system has worked FAR better than any system any team has developed ever.